Translation Teams or Translation Partners

A place to discuss Joomla! translation matters.

Moderator: infograf768

Do you want to have Translation Teams or Translation Partner Websites?

Translation Teams, with a coordinator and individuals volunteering
4
80%
Translation Partner Websites, as we have now
1
20%
I don´t mind
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 5

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Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ibnhafsun » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:08 pm

I was reading Jean-Marie´s post welcoming the Translation Teams.

May be it´s time to start to talk about Translation Teams instead of "Translation Partners Websites" or "Core Translators". I mean Teams here, not here and there, with a coordinator and individuals volunteering and working under the same principles and rules, like Core Developers.

This system is working, right, but it is starting to have serious issues (and it´s more intended to work with a small and not so community oriented project, like $ambo was).

Have you thought about a 3pd developer asking to:

1) Have a partnership with Joomla!, being the Official Developer of the X feature
2) Have all the developers willing to contribute to his extension features being redirected to his website to work under the conditions he wants
3) Have a private forum here
4) Have the information available before any other developer

Well, the language files are considered extensions. Have you ever thought about having an apache mirror or the KDE documentation  under the same conditions?

Websites have traffic, users, page ranks, ads, economic value, self promotion opportunities... individuals not. And there´s no way to offer the same protection to the volunteers here and in a Translation Partner Website.

There are:

Translation Partners Websites being illegal according to their country laws.

Translation Partner Websites violating the licensing policies.

Translation Partner Websites more interested on being the unique Translation Partner for their language than in working with a coordinator.

Translation Partners Websites using the community work to make money (which isn´t bad if you are clear and state that you are a business).

Just an example:

Under the spanish law, if you have adsense in your website you are an individual running a business (but you don´t have to do some things depending of your annual income). This is the same in many countries. If you are running a business you need to have your information available (a domain can´t be subject of any right or obligation) to anyone in your website. If you are collecting personal data (and an email addy with a name on it is considered personal data) you must have an approved personal data policy. If you have adsense and your local law considers you a business you can´t use NonCommercial content without the author´s prior permission. If you want to translate a FAQ you need to ask to the author too, the copyright holder...

What do you think?

PS: Defense of Justification is offered if needed.
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ibnhafsun » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:13 pm

I do prefer Translation Teams, of course.
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ivo.apostolov » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:14 am

I just don't get it or I think that you are not aware of the current structure.

Let me try to explain it simple.

There is translation team coordinator named David Gal (Also Core Developer).
And there are translation coordinators, who are individually responsible for the translation, those people are part of the Translation Workgroup. Those people might work with any other people on the translation.
Thoses translations are named Joomla Accredited Translations.

Translation Partner Site is something quite different. This is a site that runs a translation of the HELP SCREENS OF JOOMLA, or the so called Local Help Servers.

Both things are different and YES in most of the cases, the one who is the Translation Coordinator for the Language X is the same person who runs the Local Help Server.

And, I really can't understand, what do you think the problem is. The system works quite good so far, there are numerious of translations of 1.5 already (Have you seen the installer for example) and there are over 60 translations so far. New people are joining regulary the Translation Workgroup and new translations are available every day.
Except of this, there is no problem for anyone who wants, to grab the files, translate them and publish them for the community. You can even get an existing translation and modfied it and publish it again, as most of the translations are realized as GPL.

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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ibnhafsun » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:01 pm

Thanks, ivo.apostolov. I do appreciate your opinion but... are you really sure?

What we have is a Working Group to manage Language Translation Teams. Different Translation Teams.

Those Teams have volunteers and are intended to be bounded to the Official Translation Partner Agreement (remember, the Official Translation Partners are websites, not persons) and the Working Group conducts administrative duties to those websites.

Official Translation Partner Sites instead of Help Mirrors, you know.

What does Official mean?

And Partner?

Is able OSM to control those sites? Is able to ensure the volunteers the same guarantees they have working in any other Group?

Should OSM do it?

If not... Why redirect the volunteers willing to contribute to Teams bounded or intended to be bounded to Translation Partner Websites?

http://dev.joomla.org/content/view/41/65/

There is a Translation Working Group, with davidgal as a leader. Translation Working Group, not Translation Team.
The Translation Work Group has the following operation roles:

To accept Language Translation Teams (here you have the Translation Teams) who volunteer to the Work Group in order to develop a language package and translated help site for Joomla (to make translations of the ini files and the help screens).

To ensure that the accepted teams (Teams again) operate within the defined guidelines and agreements and maintain the "Joomla Partner Site" status (bounded to the Official translation partner Website agreement).

Keep abreast of language and translation matters raised in the forums.

Conduct administrative duties for the Translation Partner Sites including distribution of SQL dumps of screen help data (the administrative duties are conducted to the Official Translation Partners Sites).

Bring important translation and language matters to the attention of the other Joomla! Teams

In conjunction with the S&G Team, assist with queries relating to the preparation of core translation files.
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ivo.apostolov » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:17 pm

I can show you several examples of translations made by translation workgroup members, that are done, without having a partner site and those translations being recognized as accredited translations.

And when we are talking abou teams, this is due to the basic assumption that most of the translations (and especially for 1.5) are not done by a single person.

The site are something really different thing.
OSM does not control any of those sites, either it can, either it should.

And at the end of all, I still can not understand what is the issue?

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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by fotisevangelou » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:09 pm

Devil's Advocate: Hasn't anyone noticed that some "official translation" sites are taking advantage of their place/position in order to promote their business interests in their language?

This seems very ridiculous in my humble opinion, I've seen it happen and I've seen people getting kicked off from their so called "local Joomla! communities" because they did not agree in some things with the ones who "run" these local communities. What things? The fact that these "ones" (the local Joomla communities site owners) constantly promote their business through local communities and whoever offers support for free in a "higher" level, he/she is instantly included in their black list.

So, again in my opinion, the core team (meaning the developers) should examine once in a while how these "local communities" work, and if they work to the benefit of Joomla! and not their personal interest.

Don't get me wrong. If you wanna make money, sell good websites, cause that is what all of us (or at least the most) are, web designers/developers. That is what I do for a living. But do not attempt to make money by taking advantage of the hype of Joomla!, then tricking newbies to provide money for help and kicking off anyone with an "advanced" level of knowledge in Joomla! for obvious reasons.

Perhaps a more serious discussion should take place some time for this matter. Cause it's already gotten out of hand in some cases...  ;)
Last edited by fotisevangelou on Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ivo.apostolov » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:20 pm

Those two things has nothing to do with each other. My personal opinion is that the best that could be done is a centralized help database and all local help translations to be there (i.e. http://help.joomla.org/gr ).

By the end of the day, everyone who runs a local web site has the power to set own rules. The problem of recognizing such sites as "Offical" in some way could deliver problems to Joomla! as it seems that Joomla! supports that attitude (whatever it is).

One of the main ideas is for example the local forums at joomla.org, but still if the forum is only in English (i.e. buttons, there is no other languages), many newies prefer local sites. Many prefer localized versions, many prefer to write here in English.

It is a matter of personal choice.

My opinion is that all local help servers should be stored at joomla.org, another simple reason is, that if someone leaves (there are such cases) another person can CONTINUE the work.

Edit: Btw. I can say that we had totally the oposite issue. A web site providing paid services was blaiming our so called "official" local community in piracy. There was a simple reason for that, we are doing exacly the same like this site, but for free. What is going on in this case? :)
Last edited by ivo.apostolov on Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ibnhafsun » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:43 pm

ivo.apostolov, I agree with you: thee are different implications with this structure and I am sure you think as me that it is hard to keep some issues aside, so would you prefer

a) a "bork" language coordinator (the Swedish Chef)

b) with a "bork" Language Team ("bork" speaking users willing to contribute here, in the international forums and the forge with the same rules and principles as the Core Developers)

c) the main "bork" help server here

d) while keeping "borkjoomla.org" as an independant effort in the true spirit of open source (like the "bork" speaking users volunteering) with different motivations and rules contributing too

e) without any priviledges?

Place your vote if you want to do so, please.
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ivo.apostolov » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:53 pm

a) a "bork" language coordinator (the Swedish Chef)
--- There should be someone in charge at the end of all
b) with a "bork" Language Team ("bork" speaking users willing to contribute here, in the international forums and the forge with the same rules and principles as the Core Developers)
--- What is the problem someone to contribute at the moment? What do you mean with "the same rules and principles as the Core Developers"?
c) the main "bork" help server here
--- Agree.
d) while keeping "borkjoomla.org" as an independant effort in the true spirit of open source (like the "bork" speaking users volunteering) with different motivations and rules contributing too
--- Don't get it? What is you problem with borkjoomla.org? Like anyone can make a support site, or whatever site?
e) without any priviledges?
--- What priviledges???

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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by fotisevangelou » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:04 pm

ivo.apostolov wrote: Edit: Btw. I can say that we had totally the oposite issue. A web site providing paid services was blaiming our so called "official" local community in piracy. There was a simple reason for that, we are doing exacly the same like this site, but for free. What is going on in this case? :)
I guess you are fine if you were the first community of Joomla in your country (Bulgaria, right?). But what if the first community in your country was the "paid services" one? Now here is the problem. And it constantly grows cause people see THAT site as the official one from Joomla.org's official translator sites list.

On the other things mentioned, I agree that the help server should reside in joomla.org for many reasons.

I would also suggest adding alternative "partner" sites (or teams) in the translator's list, if some requirements are fulfilled of course, like active community, wealth of contribution to the international community etc. etc.

That would be the best solution. To provide alternatives.

One person must never occupy the translator's position forever! And I'm skipping the "obvious reasons" I mentioned earlier. I'm talking about incorrect/mechanical or bad spelled traslations here! What more reasons should one provide to convinse the admins of Joomla.org to just consider the possibility of expanding the "official partners" list??
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ivo.apostolov » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:33 pm

Why there should be only one translation coordinator? I think the spanish guys have 2? even 2 web sites? Both official I think

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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by fotisevangelou » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:38 pm

Exactly my point...

But this has to be reflected in the joomla.org's lists as well, shouldn't it?
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ivo.apostolov » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:42 pm

Lists are out of date, hope David to fix it when comes back.

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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ibnhafsun » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:51 pm

Yep, we have two official translation partners. Official and Partners, again.

Do you know what was the first question asked to the Core Team by one of the coordinators?

http://dev.joomla.org/content/view/2065/83/

Ask yourself why... Funny?  Nope, there is already a unique coordinator to avoid this kind of issues, but you know... different interests, different websites, different user base... Now think about a Coordinator, a Team and volunteers (both individual and websites). Would the coordinator ask the question again? I don´t think so. Really.

Note: he did not asked for a single coordinator, we have one, but for a single Official Partner.
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by fotisevangelou » Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:18 pm

ivo.apostolov wrote: Lists are out of date, hope David to fix it when comes back.
Perhaps a form of interest for new partners could also be established. A form that one would directly express interest to the core team, in becoming a "certified" or "official" partner.  ;)
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ivo.apostolov » Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:27 pm

There is such. I honestly, except the reasons mentioned above by Fotis (the paid services) I don't see any other issue with the current situation.
Contant David Gal for becoming official partner site. That is the procedure. There is also a short agreement on:
http://dev.joomla.org/content/view/41/65/


And at the end, what do you expect to achieve? Unfortunatelly, there is no way how to measure the quality of the translation.

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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by infograf768 » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:00 am

Sorry, was away moving house.
------------------------------------------------
The Translation Policy is very clear

http://dev.joomla.org/content/view/41/65/
---------------------------------------
Joomla! project can't and does not want to be responsible for local communities/sites/teams but encourages local efforts.

As a matter of fact, the Partnership (hosting local team translated help files on a local server) has not yet been put into practice.
This for a simple reason: the help files should be provided for 1.5 and the evolution of the project from 1.1 to 1.5 has delayed this.

The translation work for help files is a huge job and requires a lot of local effort. This is rewarded by the Official Partnership status and logo. An agreement is signed between Partners and Joomla! project. The fact that the hosting site is commercial or not is irrelevant here.

Anyone may apply for Partnership as well as for Accredited Core Translations. The users will ultimately choose themselves which translation or help host they use.  They will decide themselves where is the quality.

At this stage, we do not intronize Partners who do not also provide core Translations.

Coordinators for the different projects (Core Translations and Partners) are gathered in the Translation "Workgroup" which has a Private Translation Forum. When a Partner is also providing Core translations, the coordinator(s) is(are) the same.

That workgroup is indeed quite different in nature compared to Devs, Q&T, Forum or Doc for example. The participants are bound to the Code of conduct, not their teams/hosts which are transparent in terms of Joomla project organisation. This means the local teams organize themselves as they wish. It is NOT Joomla! business how they do it. Don't forget this means hundreds of people all over the world...

If a Partner Site is violating any law (or licensing policies), it should be reported to us and we will deal with it. This has happened once in the recent past and the Partner was dismissed.

The Partner will also be dismissed as Partner if the help system is not implemented in a reasonable time after release of the Official English help system on our main site.

Listings have indeed to be updated and we are aware of this. David (davidgal, the Translation Workgroup Coordinator) is ill and will hopefully recover soon. If not, I will take care of it.

I hope this has clarified the matter further.
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by fotisevangelou » Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:25 pm

You have been very clear JM, as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for your response.

My wishes for quick recovery to David.
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ibnhafsun » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:02 pm

Just a quick honest question.

This way your Official Translation Partner is free to, ie., serve the help files full of ads.

Even more, the Translation Partner would be free to, ie, offer a paid subscrition to the non ads version.

Is this right?
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by infograf768 » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:34 pm

ibnhafsun wrote: Just a quick honest question.

This way your Official Translation Partner is free to, ie., serve the help files full of ads.

Even more, the Translation Partner would be free to, ie, offer a paid subscrition to the non ads version.

Is this right?
Quick honest reply: there is absolutely no reason to be paranoid here.

Help contents/articles should be provided through the key references and url listing in the background drop-down parameters (Global Configuration/System/Help Site or Registered User parameters/Help site as a translation of the English originals. No ads or whatsoever. Some changes in the texts can be introduced if fit necessary depending on local culture, these changes should be aknowledged as a Notice on the site.

This means that a user does not even have to go to the Partner Site if not desired. The help screens access through url is transparent.
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ibnhafsun » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:02 pm

I am not paranoid at all, lol, as I have nothing to win and nothing to loose: I don´t have any kind of partnership with OSM or with any other website.

If I had one (and even without a diagnosticated paranoid) I would think different.

I would think then that I have an agreement signed that does not imply what you are saying, that tells nothing about revocable rights and nothing about the way the screens are served (only about objectionable or libellous content).

If I had such kind of agreement signed with you I would easily do what I am telling you, and if you want me to stop doing so, then may be OSM should start to think about paranoia.

"Hey, ibn, don´t be paranoid, you have a security hole but you need to find a hacker willing to cause you damage before doing anything, right?".

The help servers with ads is not a corner case, it´s happening just right now with your help screens. Let´s think about a corner case:

My business decides as a business strategy that it would be fine to be a Translation Partner. Then we invest in a couple of servers and hire some translators. We decide to put ads in the help screens... or to make some changes promoting our services. We offer a clean version too. Are you going to stop us? How? Do you think we can use the agreement in a court?

Then ask yourself:

Is the agreement a legal document?
What can I do and what can you do once the agreement is signed?

Of course, may be I am missing something here and may be I am wrong. It would be nice to have more information about this kind of issues. That´s all. Don´t follow me, don´t spy me, I am not paranoid, you all are willing to make me harm ;) Just kidding...
Last edited by ibnhafsun on Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ivo.apostolov » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:24 pm

How can you limit the access for the paid subscribers (clean)???

Stop searching conspiracies. :)

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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by infograf768 » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:27 pm

My business decides as a business strategy that it would be fine to be a Translation Partner. Then we invest in a couple of servers and hire some translators. We decide to put ads in the help screens... or to make some changes promoting our services. We offer a clean version too. Are you going to stop us? How? Do you think we can use the agreement in a court?
You do miss something: Action would be real fast: url taken off from joomla! Server site on the wall of shame of the whole community. Partner dismissed and taken off from listing. Users not using the site. Site boycotted... What advantage would a business get from that?
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ibnhafsun » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:52 pm

It´s a corner case, you know...

an indemnification, a penalty for agreement breach?
This is the agreement made between Joomla! and the Translation Partner Site Owner and/or Coordinator.

This agreement allows for your web site to be recognised as an official host for Joomla! Help Screens.

Website URL: ***** Manual signatures are NOT allowed ********** Manual signatures are NOT allowed *****_____

Domain Owner: ***** Manual signatures are NOT allowed ********** Manual signatures are NOT allowed *****____

The coordinator is the contact person between yourself and the Joomla! Translation Team.

Your Coordinator: ***** Manual signatures are NOT allowed ********** Manual signatures are NOT allowed *****______

Coordinator Email: ***** Manual signatures are NOT allowed ********** Manual signatures are NOT allowed *****_

Coordinator Forum Name (Alias): ***** Manual signatures are NOT allowed ********** Manual signatures are NOT allowed *****___
Conditions and Rights of Agreement

1. The coordinator shall liaise with the Joomla! Translation Team on all matters.

2. Help sites will be listed on the Joomla! Directory site and will be permitted to show an official icon on their site (design to be advised). Direct choice by drop-down to a list of help sites servers will be provided through Joomla! administration interface.

3. Coordinators will be invited to participate in a private forum. The purpose of this forum, among other matters related to translation, is to improve the translation of the Help Screens for Joomla! in any language.

4. Coordinators may display their partnership status in their signature on the Joomla! Forums in the following format: [Language] Joomla! Official Translation Partner – [url]

5. SQL data will be provided from the Joomla! Help Site for your convenience in translation.

6. Changes to the source material are permitted and, if made, an appropriate notice must accompany the documentation on your site.

7. No material of an objectionable or libelous character will be introduced into the documenation in any language.

8. All documentation, being a derived work of the original joomla! files, shall be licensed under the GNU/GPL.

9. Copyright of the source documentation is to be retained by Open Source Matters and must be acknowledged on your site.

10. Terms of this agreement will be reviewed at a time appointed by the Joomla! Project with a frequency of approximately 12 months.

11. Failure to comply with these conditions may result in termination of this agreement. Continued non-compliance may result in further action being taken which may include, but not be limited to, exclusion from the Joomla! forums, news items, directory listings, etc.
Even more money if you put me in a wall of shame?

Read carefully the agreement and tell me what I am allowed to do as a Translation Partner. And OSM obligations and rights?

Not conspiracy at all, really. This is a corner case (again) and you would be more worried about what´s really happening around, what kind of system we have and its implications. That´s all.
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ibnhafsun » Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:21 pm

By the way, Jean-Marie...
No ads or whatsoever.
Really? Have you tested the available (and working) help servers? I did.

I know, it´s all a WIP (and a great work too). But you can get a picture...
You do miss something: Action would be real fast: url taken off from joomla! Server site on the wall of shame of the whole community. Partner dismissed and taken off from listing. Users not using the site. Site boycotted... What advantage would a business get from that?
How fast? Now?  ;)

I am sure that some of your Translation Partners don´t know anything about "No ads or whatsoever" and I am sure most of them are working their best for us, the simple users like me, putting a lot of work without any other intention than help us.

Wouldn´t it be better a more elaborated Translation Partner Policy before the help servers go live?

As I said before, there are a lot of "black holes" and, IMO, they should be filled or closed as soon as possible.
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ivo.apostolov
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ivo.apostolov » Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:27 pm

OK, why don't you just list those help servers???
Of course, I can check them all as you did, but ...

Edit 1:
OK, I checked those. I was:
1. Unable to see more then 3-4 help servers actually working.
2. I haven't seen any adds on them (meaning on the help screens). The site could have tons of adds, and those to not appear on the help screens.
3. Can you really tell us, what is the specific case you mention, because from your posts, I think that you don't speak in general, but for a particular case.

Edit 2: OK, our help server (the site itself) has three banners as well (if those can be considered as adds). Those banner are on all of our local sites/subdomains. I just tested it, none of those appear on the help screens, when they are loaded from Joomla!

Do you realize, that there is difference in having adds on the site that runs the Help Screens and the Help Screens itself? If so, what is the case you mention.
Last edited by ivo.apostolov on Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ibnhafsun » Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:15 pm

Hi, ivo.apostolov. Thanks for your reply. May be it was my mistake:

I started talking about the way the help screens are served. Then, with the corner case, I talked about putting ads or self promotion links within the help screens content.

The main difference, for me is this:

If I am a bulgarian speaking user I will see banners while surfing the help screens.

If I am an english speaking user, don´t.

It doesn´t matter if the help screens translation is just your effort and you want to serve the screens that way. I am free to choose a different server, if available.

But the help screens are a community effort and some translations too.

Joomla! is giving you the chance of make profit from it and a competitive advantage.

Joomla! is redirecting the volunteers willing to contribute to you. If you are a business and you state that clearly, that´s right. If you are presenting yourself like a "community website" I am not sure...
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...nam qui dabat olim imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, panem et circenses...
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ivo.apostolov » Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:22 pm

I have no idea, how did you get that screen, but I am attaching what I see. The Help Screens are supposed to get the MAINBODY only, and if we have case like this, I think that it is bug in Joomla! rather then something on purpose.

Screeshot is taken on
Help -> Banners New/Edit
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ivo.apostolov » Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:24 pm

Screenshot what I get, when clicking on the Help Button when I am on the banners component. It is supposed to be in THIS way.
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Re: Translation Teams or Translation Partners

Post by ibnhafsun » Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:25 pm

I am using the latest nightly on a local test server.

The wrapped url is:

http://help.joomla-bg.com/index.php?opt ... nners.edit
...nam qui dabat olim imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, panem et circenses...
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