Board of Rejects

Reaction to the statement posted on www.opensourcematters.org
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Board of Rejects

Post by spignataro » Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:17 pm

I am displeased on what is happening with the Mambo project and what Miro is doing with Mambo project. If feel as if kids are playing with a project to only ruin the open source meaning behind it.

I feel that Miro should give all rights back to the community and leave well enough alone. This is a community project and has been for as long as I have been part of it. I support all the efforts of the dev team / doc team / community team. I do not support or nor has my potition changes towards the movement of what Miro wishes to do. I feel as if Miro is trying to purchase a corporate stucture here.

This project should still be under the control of the community and not Miro.

I am completly discusted with Miro and displeased with what is happening.

That is all I have to say.
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by tjay » Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:44 pm

Steve you know, you have often given me support when I was frustrated and I will forever be thankfull
We all reacted the same way at first news.
But I have a hunch we are going to see great things here. And the community and core team are going to need folks like you.
Go kick some things and get it out of your system, then jump in here with the rest of the folks moving over.

Good to see you here.
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by Terenzusum » Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:49 pm

i think this is not so bad day now we are free  ;D

so now its up to us where to go and i dont think it will be easy trip, but the freedom as you know isn't cheap

it's glory day for us as a comunity
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by spignataro » Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:02 pm

o that i do understand...but i think it is completly ubsurd with what is going on.

I think we should create a new name for the project and call it: MamBoss
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by Michelle Bisson » Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:05 pm

Thanks all for your continued support!!!
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by idigital » Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:19 pm

Baaaahahahahah...

I just have to say that it's very important right now that we can look on the bright side of this debacle and have a laugh at what would be a dire situation if it were not for our very positive and active community.

By this I mean, "Board of Rejects" is the funniest thing I've seen all day! ;)

Nice one.  :D
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by spignataro » Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:56 pm

figured everyone would get a kick out of that...although this is not meant towards robert as I was a good friend of his and mean no hard in what i say towards him.
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by TheSaint » Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:28 am

From their FAQ:

http://mambo-foundation.org/content/view/28/46/
Q - Why did Miro create the Mambo Foundation?

A – The creation of the Mambo Foundation was a natural evolution for the Mambo project. When a community becomes so large and active it requires much more structure and organisation to manage it. Miro felt that if  it gave the community such an organisation and prepared the rules and processes, then the project could self-manage indefinately.
Weren't we already self-managing just fine before? I wasn't aware there was a problem with growing pains prior to all this nonsense. Keyword highlighted at the end, self-manage.

Note the rest of the jargon translates into red tape. No thank you.
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by spignataro » Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:15 pm

well that is my point....none of what is written makes sense....
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by mediawizard » Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:24 pm

I doubt if even RL thot this through, lol

That is why none of this makes sense, if you lose the community all you are doing with the name is conning newbies...  and to think I thought had seen all the scams!!!
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by teng » Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:35 pm

i think the owner of miro now is having sleepless nights having Board of Rejects. As if new recruits for their newly founded community i guess are more likely newbies. droll!!!  ;D

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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by alwarren » Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:02 pm

And the worst thing for Peter Lamont is he is in the business of selling software. He can't focus on that because of this "other thing" going on that doesn't even pay the bills. He must be going looney with worry.
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by xperis » Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:08 pm

TheSaint wrote: From their FAQ:

http://mambo-foundation.org/content/view/28/46/
Q - Why did Miro create the Mambo Foundation?

A – The creation of the Mambo Foundation was a natural evolution for the Mambo project. When a community becomes so large and active it requires much more structure and organisation to manage it. Miro felt that if  it gave the community such an organisation and prepared the rules and processes, then the project could self-manage indefinately.
Weren't we already self-managing just fine before? I wasn't aware there was a problem with growing pains prior to all this nonsense. Keyword highlighted at the end, self-manage.

Note the rest of the jargon translates into red tape. No thank you.
Ah.. no it wasn't  There are numerous places on this site where Andrew has been quoted as saying he doesn't have time for this or that.

Protecting the project from lawsuits, promoting it into prominent customers so we all have great references when we pitch it our clients is work.  Business work.  Dealing with the petty tantrums etc on the forums is work. 

The dev team has been good at building a solution.  They shouldn't be wasting their time managing websites etc.

Given Robert Castley's recent posts, I am becoming very sure this is about misunderstandings and hurt feelings, and territory.

I am convinved now that a SPLIT is the worst solution.  It appears Robert wants to mediate (he couldn't walk away) time for Andrew and Core to put down the Attorney's for a few days and talk.

The best solution is for the Core to find a way to let the foundation do its job, so they can do what they are really really good at.

I am now sure reconcilliation is the best solution... Not giving up.. but finding a Win/Win. Right now I think we have a lose/lose.
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by keliix06 » Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:58 pm

I have no more information than any of the other users, but I do talk with a core developer on a more private level. I can assure you that a break was the last thing they wanted. They were the team who built a product that beat Firfox for best OS solution and they are leaving that name behind, you can't tell me they would do that as anything but a last recourse.
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by alwarren » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:36 pm

xperis wrote:I am now sure reconcilliation is the best solution...
Have you actually read the rules of association, the membership agreement, the rights by membership? They are absolutely insane. No open source developer in his or her right mind would be a part of that.
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by ganar » Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:11 pm

xperis wrote:
Protecting the project from lawsuits, promoting it into prominent customers so we all have great references when we pitch it our clients is work.  Business work.  Dealing with the petty tantrums etc on the forums is work. 

The dev team has been good at building a solution.  They shouldn't be wasting their time managing websites etc.

Given Robert Castley's recent posts, I am becoming very sure this is about misunderstandings and hurt feelings, and territory.

I am convinved now that a SPLIT is the worst solution.  It appears Robert wants to mediate (he couldn't walk away) time for Andrew and Core to put down the Attorney's for a few days and talk.

The best solution is for the Core to find a way to let the foundation do its job, so they can do what they are really really good at.

I am now sure reconcilliation is the best solution... Not giving up.. but finding a Win/Win. Right now I think we have a lose/lose.

I feel that you are on to something here. I agree that this is the worst posible scenario for everybody– the community, the core Dev Team and Mambo. I can´t see how this "forking" of mambo can do any good in the end...(i´m not being pessimist)

We´ve been using Mambo since 2003 for commercial work and have come to appreciate the community effort around it and the excellent CMS. I participate in the forums and go to mamboforge almost every day.

It is still very hard for us to understand what happened here and how the entire development team just left... When we read about the lawyers involved we could not believe it...

Is there a chance to somehow talk things over with Miro? We believe from the efforts done during last year that they indeed have supported the development effort with quite a bit of time, money and infrastructure. We still remember the stint behind the guy that said that he somehow owned part of Mambo and how appropiate was Miro´s response to the matter. We all (should) know that managing the servers, the redesign of the site and a long etc do takes time and money. In my particular case I found that being able to reference the awards won by Mambo –thanks to the Dev team, the community and Miro– and the work done in the documentation site –help.mamboserver.com– is an important selling point behind the name Mambo.

I think that Miro certainly made mistakes in aproaching the situation and I´m sure that the dev team feels somehow cheated. We felt cheated and worried too while reading this: http://mambo-foundation.org/content/view/11/27/  Even so we do think that things are not written in stone and that after the whole event efforts must be done on both sides to solve the situation in a way that benefits the community and in the end Mambo ( I have no other way to call it).

I hope this post is taken as constructive criticism by a team who uses Mambo every day

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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by xperis » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:32 pm

alwarren wrote:
xperis wrote:I am now sure reconcilliation is the best solution...
Have you actually read the rules of association, the membership agreement, the rights by membership? They are absolutely insane. No open source developer in his or her right mind would be a part of that.
Then Microsoft wins. They were right.  It is impossible for Opensource development to leave the club house and invade the board room.  It also means Apache and others must be fake opensource developers, because they work in a structure.  Since the Foundation never had a chance to run, we don't know how it would have worked, someone read some boiler plate legalese and got mad.

Just because something has structure doesn't mean it is evil.  I seem lots of assumptions and no curiosity from many people. Not a good thing, always question.
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by alwarren » Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:49 pm

xperis wrote: Just because something has structure doesn't mean it is evil.
Even Hitler had a structure.
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by rejuvinet » Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:27 am

I hadn't come across this thread till now - and I'm glad, on two fronts...

First - "Board of Rejects" - good one Steve, though you could always be counted on for zingers like this.  ;D

Second - I'm glad I'm not alone in entertaining the idea of at least a *possibility* of reconciliation - something I have brought up on other threads here.  I agree with the fact that the Core wouldn't have split unless it felt it was a last resort - but even the best intentions can go awry.  I am a living testament to that.  ::)

But I don't see the harm in one last "winner take all" effort at trying to smooth this thing out.  I've tried to get as much information as I can - and while I don't have the luxury of talking to a dev on a "more private level" I have been around long enough to know that we have ALWAYS overcome obstacles. Not long ago, everyone involved here (Miro, Core, and the community) were united in the face of adversity.  Have we really forgotten that so quickly?

Can we at least TRY to see if this was nothing more than a misunderstanding?  I know Core has its reasons for the exodus, and they did not make that decision lightly or in haste - but is this whole thing completely unsalvageable?  Can years of hard work really be washed out with just a few days' worth of "He said, she said..."?

It's a crying shame that all of the hard work to get Mambo to where it is (was?) could be discounted if this was merely a misunderstanding that could have been cleared up had cooler heads prevailed....  I'm not saying tha's the case - we don't know what's happened yet because neither side is really telling us anything substantive (and I understand the reasoning for it).... But after everything that's happened in the past 4 years - good and bad - is there really no chance at even entertaining the possibility of talks?
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by rjs » Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:11 pm

I'm not sure why the fuss. The fuss was made over in the other forums. The issues have been there for quite some time. Nothing new. This is the results of long time issues. The only thing new here is that the community took a stand and voiced their opinions on open source and how a community should operate. If any reconcilliation can be attained with Miro, fine. But *ambo as you know it doesn't exist anymore. What Miro has done will have an everlasting impact on this project whether decisions are reversed or not. This all has much deeper meaning than "just *ambo" or just *iro.

The decisions made as I view it were not only correct in judgement, but immediately put in place to show the world that this project is an open source project and "will  not" under any circumstances be thrown into such situations like this without proper discussion and configuration.

There is nothing wrong with putting a "structured organization" in place. I'm all for it under the right set of criterea. However, *iro need nothing at all to do with it unless the community wills *iro as the leading sponsor for such.

I will say one thing. For the new project direction to make it, people need get on board for the right reasons. If you don't like the decisions made, there is already a Mambo organization setup to fulfull your desires of a structured organization. They have a forum as well.

Can we at least TRY to see if this was nothing more than a misunderstanding?

I don't personally believe that a misunderstanding is the issue. I have a forum of documentation that backs up my belief on the matter. Of course unless it's all been deleted. This isn't a misunderstanding unless Lamont wants to admit that he misunderstood the gpl and what this community stood for.


I will not respond to this thread again... There is no reason for it.
Last edited by rjs on Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by rejuvinet » Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:42 pm

rjs wrote: I'm not sure why the fuss. The fuss was made over in the other forums. The issues have been there for quite some time. Nothing new. This is the results of long time issues. The only thing new here is that the community took a stand and voiced their opinions on open source and how a community should operate. If any reconcilliation can be attained with Miro, fine. But *ambo as you know it doesn't exist anymore. What Miro has done will have an everlasting impact on this project whether decisions are reversed or not. This all has much deeper meaning than "just *ambo" or just *iro.
I'm not sure why you're posting this in a thrad that hasn't seen any action in 3 or 4 days...;)
rjs wrote:The decisions made as I view it were not only correct in judgement, but immediately put in place to show the world that this project is an open source project and "will  not" under any circumstances be thrown into such situations like this without proper discussion and configuration.
Agreed - and I have said so MANY times in both these and the other forums.
rjs wrote:There is nothing wrong with putting a "structured organization" in place. I'm all for it under the right set of criterea. However, *iro need nothing at all to do with it unless the community wills *iro as the leading sponsor for such.

I will say one thing. For the new project direction to make it, people need get on board for the right reasons. If you don't like the decisions made, there is already a Mambo organization setup to fulfull your desires of a structured organization. They have a forum as well.
Tell me - when have you ever seen me post anything that wasn't in full, 100% support of the dev team?  A comment like this is not only misinformed, but it borders on insulting.

Seems I have to clear something up for you here - my previous advocating for a reconciliation had Mambo as a WHOLE in mind.  Its history, its legacy, and its community.  All sides stood together, united and strong, through the Connolly fiasco - and THAT'S what I was hoping to achieve.  But that was days ago, before Miro pulled their collossal set of blunders...  It's obvious Miro's NOT got their user base in mind or at heart, and I have long since abandoned any notion of reconciliation.  I've stated that quite clearly too...

And while I'm running this little mini-rant - what's with all of these asterisks replacing the M's in Miro or Mambo?  Call a spade a spade, for pity's sake!  :)

rjs wrote:Can we at least TRY to see if this was nothing more than a misunderstanding?

I don't personally believe that a misunderstanding is the issue. I have a forum of documentation that backs up my belief on the matter. Of course unless it's all been deleted. This isn't a misunderstanding unless Lamont wants to admit that he misunderstood the gpl and what this community stood for.


I will not respond to this thread again... There is no reason for it.
Didn't need to reply to it in the first place.  :)

There IS a misunderstanding in play here, but it's not regarding the GPL or what this community stands for.  It's a case of Lamont neglecting the rights and reason of the community that supported "his" project in the first place.  He acted without thought, and tried to spin it as being "better for the community".  But the community never entered his train of thought when he started this comedy of errors...  And where is his "beloved" community now?

I rest my case.  ;)

In all seriousness - I had tried advocating a reconciliation because of what Mambo was as a whole, and what it stood for.  Mambo is/was more than just a piece of software - it was about a community that solidly supported each other through difficult times.  It symbolized unity and showed that miles of land or water doesn't prevent a global neighborhood.  It means more to me (and I'm just posting my own stupid little opinion here) than just a batch of code.  It embodied success, and demonstrated how a community will rally together in support of what they stand for.  THAT'S what I wanted to reunite - but it's painfully obvious that Miro doesn't see it the way I do.  Look at the ridiculous actions its taken in the past 2 weeks, and how they are trying to make not only the Core, but the community, look like fools - albeit very unsucessfully.

I'm behind Core 100% - said so all along.  That won't change.  What has changed is my view on what Mambo is/was - and I am really looking forward to watching this soon-to-be-named CMS embody what Mambo used to be....

Thanks, rjs - I needed that.  :)  Want a beer?  LOL
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by spignataro » Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:50 pm

These seem to be interesting discussion and ideas. But like Dave said what why is Miro and Mambo astricked out?

Anyways the purpose of me posting this was to point out that the board is a bunch of rejects. The purpose of the foundation should be to support / include / refurbish / fund the open source project along with having members of the development team as part of the foundation and should have had ALOT of say from community.

Instead it has lack of support / uninclusion / deletion of post / banning of members / and lack of acknoledgement from the community. Do you want to see an open source project like that? Not I. In the past few days you can see the support of the Mambo project by reading the post....by seeing what is going on.

You can see the support of Miro lacking as 85% of the forum members have moved over here.

Enough said.
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Re: Board of Rejects

Post by leolam » Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:19 pm

how long does it takes before being removed or banned by the new forum.boss?

http://forum.mamboserver.com/showpost.p ... ostcount=1

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good points Steve!
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