Critical to OSM

Reaction to the statement posted on www.opensourcematters.org
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Critical to OSM

Post by torkil » Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:53 pm

I recently sent some questions to a developer, asking why his company hadn't picked sides in the OSM vs Miro "battle". To me it was obvious that OSM was to prefer. Then it all backfired on me and he asked some critical questions which I was unable to reply to.

Can anyone help me out?
  • 1) Half of the core team works for a new/old company mambodev.com, registered on 02-May-05 Miller, Andrew JamboWorks.com. It’s August now, when did they plan for this? In May or April. What not to say that Jamboworks.com / CoreDev / doesn’t pull a Miro in the future?
  • 2) How does one become a “core developer” when one is a business competitor? Of the other business lets say MyMamboBusiness.com vs.  Mambodev.com/Jamboworks.com You have a good percentage of the core dev as Jamboworks.com employees.
  • 3) There’s no roadmap or name or mediation of power and promotion.How has control not the public? (not sure what he meant by this though. Maybe "who has control over the roadmap"?)
Please note: I have only repeated the OSM-critical questions he asked. He also said alot of good things in his reply, both about OSM and Miro. All in all his conclusion was that he would wait it out and that he hoped the crisis would pass and all would be friends again.

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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by absalom » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:15 pm

Suffice to say the potential conflict of interest questions have been answered.

I haven't got Mitch's consent to post what he sent me on that topic, so it's up to him where we go with this.

1) would be a dumb move.. in anyone's books... and I think the dev team have got their heads screwed on the right way ;)

2) As far as I can tell, core development is an independent assignment outside of a business arrangement. As long as independence is guaranteed, no conflict of interest there.

3) is the interesting question.. How do people get promoted to core, dev and other teams ? Is this documented anywhere ? (And it's outside the realm of conflict of interest anyway)..
Last edited by absalom on Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by stingrey » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:18 pm

torkil wrote:
  • 1) Half of the core team works for a new/old company mambodev.com, registered on 02-May-05 Miller, Andrew JamboWorks.com. It’s August now, when did they plan for this? In May or April. What not to say that Jamboworks.com / CoreDev / doesn’t pull a Miro in the future?
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... l#msg10315
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... ml#msg9243

torkil wrote:
  • 2) How does one become a “core developer” when one is a business competitor? Of the other business lets say MyMamboBusiness.com vs.  Mambodev.com/Jamboworks.com You have a good percentage of the core dev as Jamboworks.com employees.
Developers are invited to join the Core when the need arises for new members - due to loss of a member or due to expansion of a team.
The whole core team than debate on the candidates and or adds candidates and from that a person(s) is than invited onto the team:
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... ml#msg6247
As you can see 3 out of 18 hardly is a 'good percentage'.
Further we would have no qualms about inviting a potential 'competitor' of jamboworks if they have the 'right stuff'.

torkil wrote:
  • 3) There’s no roadmap or name or mediation of power and promotion.How has control not the public? (not sure what he meant by this though. Maybe "who has control over the roadmap"?)
The roadmap is developed by the whole core team (but obviously mainly the development sub-team), with obvious care taken to lsiten to community needs.
Last edited by stingrey on Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by rhuk » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:28 pm

torkil wrote:
  • 1) Half of the core team works for a new/old company mambodev.com, registered on 02-May-05 Miller, Andrew JamboWorks.com. It?s August now, when did they plan for this? In May or April. What not to say that Jamboworks.com / CoreDev / doesn?t pull a Miro in the future?
If you consult the links Rey has posted above you will see my answer to the first bullet regarding your questions about JamboWorks.
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by torkil » Mon Aug 29, 2005 7:29 pm

Allright then, thanks for the replies so far. My friend, who has decided to be anonymous, has these follow-up questions though:
stingrey wrote:
torkil wrote:
  • 2) How does one become a “core developer” when one is a business competitor? Of the other business lets say MyMamboBusiness.com vs.  Mambodev.com/Jamboworks.com You have a good percentage of the core dev as Jamboworks.com employees.
Developers are invited to join the Core when the need arises for new members - due to loss of a member or due to expansion of a team.
The whole core team than debate on the candidates and or adds candidates and from that a person(s) is than invited onto the team:
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... ml#msg6247
As you can see 3 out of 18 hardly is a 'good percentage'.
Further we would have no qualms about inviting a potential 'competitor' of jamboworks if they have the 'right stuff'.
My friend disagrees on this point. Here's his version of the Core Dev team roster this roster has 50% (four out of eight) jamboworks people on it.
Development Team
- Andrew Eddie // JamboWorks.com
- Emir Sakic
- Andy Miller // JamboWorks.com
- Mitch Pirtle // JamboWorks.com
- Tim Broeker
- Alex Kempkens
- Arno Zijlstra // JamboWorks.com
- Nick Annies

In addition there is Johan Janssens leading the SOC and the 3rd Party Addon DocMan Development Team.

As he puts it: It’s five core devs not 3 and the positions are all key.

Plus its the placement of the 5. 4 out of 5 are on the development core
without this piece mambo aka OSM no name  ;)  is dead it starts and ends here. See "Sec:A" and down for list.


As he puts it in the end: And don’t get me wrong I’m not saying this is a plot but it looks funny if you look at it.
I have to agree... Jamboworks seem to have either placed their management strategically, or they have recruited tactically. OSM seem to have to rely very much on Jamboworks, or else it can lose 50% of its core devteam.

This potentially gives a great amount of influence towards the development process and recruitment process, doesn't it?

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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by brian » Mon Aug 29, 2005 7:38 pm

your "friend" appears to be being exceedingly selective in who he considers to be part of the core team.

The development of the product formally know as mambo is not just down to a list of coders - inaccurate as your list is.

Your "friend" who very strangely cannot show himself, clearly has an alterior motive besmirching the good name of ALL the people who have contributed in creating mambo and making it the award winning project it became.

Your "friend" clearly does not live in the real world and is also clearly not willing to accept the fact that no one who worked on mambo was ever paid to do that work by the community or by miro.

All the hours of coding and other services provided by the core team members was provided free of charge. Is your "friend" saying that anyone who works on a  core team must do so a) free of charge and b) without employment

I'm sure your "friend" will wish to reply with more innacuracies but then again I'm sure we all know who you're "friend" is.
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by rhuk » Mon Aug 29, 2005 7:51 pm

torkil wrote: My friend disagrees on this point. Here's his version of the Core Dev team roster this roster has 50% (four out of eight) jamboworks people on it.
Development Team
- Andrew Eddie // JamboWorks.com
- Emir Sakic
- Andy Miller // JamboWorks.com
- Mitch Pirtle // JamboWorks.com
- Tim Broeker
- Alex Kempkens
- Arno Zijlstra // JamboWorks.com
- Nick Annies

In addition there is Johan Janssens leading the SOC and the 3rd Party Addon DocMan Development Team.

As he puts it: It’s five core devs not 3 and the positions are all key.

Plus its the placement of the 5. 4 out of 5 are on the development core
without this piece mambo aka OSM no name  ;)  is dead it starts and ends here. See "Sec:A" and down for list.


As he puts it in the end: And don’t get me wrong I’m not saying this is a plot but it looks funny if you look at it.
I have to agree... Jamboworks seem to have either placed their management strategically, or they have recruited tactically. OSM seem to have to rely very much on Jamboworks, or else it can lose 50% of its core devteam.

This potentially gives a great amount of influence towards the development process and recruitment process, doesn't it?
I don't think your 'friend' read the links that were posted, or the information on the JamboWorks website.  You will see it states that 3 of us decided to start a business doing mambo consulting, we have also setup agreements with a few other core developers to help us out from time to time on these projects.  There is no conspiracy here, we even go to great lengths to keep the opensource project and JamboWorks seperate for this very reason.
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by torkil » Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:03 pm

There is no need to get sarcastic brian. I am no liar and I'm no coward. If these were my questions, I would not hesitate to ask them myself. My "friend" didn't decide to be anonymous himself by the way. It was I who decided to leave his name out of my initial post since I had not gotten his permission to post his name. Believe it or not, I prefer to do things the right way.

The purpose was never to start a flamewar or to throw s.h.i.t (actually a disallowed word! :)) in any directions, nor was it to besmirch the good names of "masterchief" or any other individual. I just posted this to point out somethings that people have questioned. Searching the dutch forums, I realize that I am not the only one to question these things either (I recognize the words commercial and Jamboworks and the same list of individuals at least, read it here). Please note that initially I didn't question anything. I was and still am ready to follow what ever path OSM and its core team decides to take.

I still think it is imperative to ask these questions so that there is no dubt left in anyones mind that OSM is the path to follow and that we make sure that, what I like to call a "hostile takeover", never occurs in this manner again. What Miro did was totally wrong. We all agree on that point, even my "friend". I say "friend" and not friend since all I know about this person is what he wrote in his three emails to me, and that didn't include any personal info.

What is being pointed out is that Jamboworks seems to be more than involved in the core dev team.

Whether it is me, my "friend", or some dutch people who have these questions should be of no importance. If I really had malicious motives and really wanted to besmirch someones name, I would not post these questions on this forum and I would definetely not give people the opportunity to answer them.

I hope this clarifies my intentions.


Edit: Thank you for the good response rhuk.
Last edited by torkil on Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by cdkaminsky » Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:38 pm

I am not intune with all the "politics" of Mambo/Miro/Jambo, etc.

But my 2 cents is this.  All the core devs are putting in countless hours.  To me it would only seem just that they make money from their hardwork in some form or fashion.  If having a group of them working at a private company is how they support themselves and their families then great.  Using $ambo at Jambo is only going to make $ambo that much better. 

They have hands on customer feedback, daily "real world" implementation of the program, etc.  Anything a they fix for a customer or notice that needs to befixed will help all of us. 

For me it is like going to a Ford dealership and seeing the manager driving a Chevy......   Makes me suspicious.  They should be using what they put their time into....These guys know this product in and out and put their hearts into....they also know each other in and out....so why not make some money together. 

I guess unless some big money starts pooring in that would allow the core team to not work on other jobs--- this is going to be a in issue.


Sorry if I bounced around....just wanted to give my opinion since I am not part of the Team or part of Jambo....

Also....I bet jambo did the template for http://www.opensourcematters.com&nbsp; but you do not see their name in the footer or any advertisment.  Seems like they are keeping things seperate and professional.
Last edited by cdkaminsky on Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by torkil » Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:04 pm

I'm sure that the people at Miro were good guys once too.

My law teacher once said that "you don't really know people until you have been in a car crash with them... or you have inherited something with them". What he meant was, obviously, that when money comes on the table, peoples focus seem to shift. Even those you thought were the good ones. His message to us all was always to have deals in writing, with signatures and witnesses...

If we learned our lesson from this Miro business right now, what measures have we taken to ensure that something like this never happens again? Its possible that this question has been answered earlier, but I'm asking it anyhow. It kinda belongs in this thread too. Feel free to post a link! :)

Before you hang me up there with Judas, I'd just like to say that I love the CMS, the community, the dev team and the direction this is going in. I'm just trying to be realistic, to ask some (maybe exagurrated) critical questions, and to get some good answers so that the people that still have their dubts (like my "friend") can get down off their asses and join in on the OSM train, heading for the 5.0 station at full speed!

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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by keliix06 » Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:47 pm

Here is an snwer from someone not affiliated with Jamboworks in any way, based on my understanding.

All core members who are involved in Jamboworks were involved in the development of Mambo long before anyone thought of Jamboworks. The core team works many hours a week together, this was just a business formed by people who already work together all the time. The core team (and those who work at JW) have said explicitly that they do not want the new name of Mambo to be Jambo. I can only assume that is so people don't get the wrong idea and think JW is trying to take over Mambo. It's simply not happening.

Andy, Andrew, Mitch, et al have been pouring thousands of hours into the development of Mambo. Someone who is willing to give so much is not a person to be wary of.
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by lester » Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:51 pm

@torkil,

As a new user of Mambo I have been aware of the rift and have had to come a decision as to which team & community I choose to go with, just as your friend (and everyone else) needs to.

Apart from official statements from Miro I haven't read anything independent that gives me solid reasons to choose Mambo. By contrast, I can't count the number of web sites - industry news, developers, designers, users, and more - that commend OSM.

Suggest your friend starts reading for himself ... and sorry, that sounds quite rude, it's not meant to be.

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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by de » Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:02 pm

No one gets hung up... at least not in this forum I believe ;-)

Yes, money is getting in the way often. And there will always some doubt. But I believe the questions were answered. And speaking of myself, I have more confidence when I know more about where people get there money from. If they work 40+ hours a week on the project and don't have any money source I'd be probably more worried.

As for the measures take to ensure that this does not happen again? Well, moving appart from the company which tried to have the control over the project is a quite effective measure, don't you think? It is now a more true open source project, no company in the background anymore. And there are quite a few discussions about more transparency and it was said that they will try to take care of it. (Just read the thread "Why I am leaving" for example).

What I find a bit strange is to be the middle men for someone... do you owe him the answers or are they then your own questions? I don't think it is very effective this way. But well, you are free to do what you want anyway. I just don't think there is a need to convince someone in a 3rd person.

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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by torkil » Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:00 am

I was not trying to be a middle man here. The person asked some questions that I could not answer myself, and they made me curious too. So I decided to post them on the forums, hoping to get a really good reply that I could show him to convince him that OSM was the way to go.

Apart from what brian wrote, I think lots of the answers were really good. I had not foreseen that people would jump into the trenches like some did though, and try to counterattack what for they seemed to be mindless accusations. I was just, and I still am, looking for answers to questions that I thought should be pretty straightforward for people on the "inside". The aggressive answers might suggest otherwise?

My law teacher also said, by the way, that "you don't know people until you've tried divorcing them." Also a money issue right there I suspect, and a lesson to be learned for all those who thought the marriage to Miro was all for the greater good of the community.

In any case - I hope this continuation of the old Mambo project stays on track and open source. I will not attempt to compare my efforts to those of the development teams, but I can say that it has been a fair amount of coding, bug reporting/fixing and forum replying as I am sure we all have. Thats why I, and I suspect all of you, feel strongly about taking the open source road, as anything else like for example the path Miro has taken, is just disrespectful towards the community that has worked so hard for so long.

I feel that the point on the Jamboworks people being involved alot has been answered thoroughly. Of course they need money to put food on the table, as do we all. Still, the question on what is being done to ensure that someone does not "pull a Miro" hasn't been replied to that good in my opinion. It does not reassure me to just have statements saying that "we aim to make things transparent" and "we pick people in a democratic way". Not to mention: "Mr X is a nice guy, he would never do such a thing". I think something more solid should be put forward.

Wasn't the original foundation idea presented by the core team itself, to try to ensure the Mambo projects independence and sovereignty?

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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by jdg » Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:22 am

As far as I know, the Foundation idea came from Miro first and was worked out with the core dev team later. The idea of the foundation was to saveguard Mambo, the devs and the community from false accusations and juridic actions against any of them like the infamous Mr. B. Connoly attempted some months ago.

The idea was good, until Miro pulled the whammy from its sleeves you now so eloquently phrase as "pulling a Miro"; IMHO this will be a phrase that'll go down the history books and might even become the OSM-Mambo jargon for it ;)

Anyway, whenever there's people involved in something, each and every person will have his/her own agenda. That's what your law teacher also tried to teach you. And agenda's can change; overnight even.
So basically no-one can ever give you the guarantee that no-one will ever pull a Miro ever again.

However, the code is protected well enough from people/businesses pulling Miro's by the GPL. This is being demonstrated right now. Miro pulled a Miro and the core-devs forked the code. If part(s) of the core-devs, like the devs from Jamboworks, would pull a Miro, the remainder of the core-devs or other parts of the community can fork OSM-Mambo and continue from there.
This is happening quite a lot in Open Source software projects, not all the time, but more often than you might think...

But I think you shouldn't get too paranoid about jamboworks. The jamboworks devs are all spread around the globe which makes it hard already to keep things together properly as it is. Imagine what would happen if it tried pulling a Miro; chances are it'll fall apart like loose sand. To me jamboworks appears to be nothing more than an opportunistic 'vehicle' to make something out of the hard work the devs are putting into the code. After all, they are the most experienced people related to the code base, so if a large opportunity comes by (e.g. the devshed.com that's also using Mambo, which was implemented for them by the core-devs back then) jamboworks can function as the legal entity representing the core-devs working on such a large-scale project.

Imagine what would happen if jamboworks would pull a Miro; they'd be out of business almost immediately as they'd instantly loose their privileged position which gives jamboworks its edge over others... Miro is a different story in this respect; they always had a commercial version of Mambo and after the latest storm of awards Mambo has won they (or rather: Peter Lamont) smelled money from something they reckon was already theirs.

Most of the devs from Jamboworks are with the core-devs for quite a long time already, but the two most important ones; Andrew Eddie and Emir Sakic, the longest serving on the team, are from different "companies". Andrew is Jamboworks, Emir is sakic.net. They go back a long time and survived many problems Mambo has faced the past years. Besides that, they both have lives and earnings outside Mambo or the OSM.

I wouldn't be too eager to get reassurance no-one would ever pull a Miro again or to seek guarantees because no-one can get you any. And if anyone would give you any, it isn't worth the paper it's written on, since everybody can fork the code at any time.

In Dutch we got a saying: "You shouldn't try to look for ghosts".... In other words: you shouldn't try to look for something that's not there, because right now it is not there; at this moment there's no-one in Jamboworks that's even contemplating pulling a Miro and I'm convinced that no-one in Jamboworks at this very moment even has the notion that Jamboworks could/would pull a Miro in the future. Hence the reaction you experienced to be 'aggressive'. I would be p**ssed too if you'd doubted my good intentions, so are you (judging from you posts; you try to get things out in the open with good intentions, yet you feel 'Judas-ed' when you get 'aggressive' answers), and that's completely human...

Now, to come to a conclusion: The GPL saveguards us all from another Miro. If Jamboworks would pull one, let them. There will plenty of people left to fork the code and continue the work; the community is large enough. Sure, it'll be annoying to say the least and it'll cost some of us (including me) some money, but we'll survive.
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by brad » Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:35 am

ahh if only we got paid to develop and support Mambo.. then we wouldn't need 3 jobs. ;) I'd probably get more sleep as well.
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by torkil » Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:06 am

Good reply and I must say I have to agree. The GPL is really the document that safeguards that things stay Open Source. As for Jamboworks: They seem like a good kind of gang. Great templates (I am a member of the templates club too) and the people there show great spirit and efforts to save this CMS from the Miro highway robbers. (or something like that, according to the lone mamber ;))

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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by rootropy » Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:08 am

I've read this matters of Jamboworks in many threads before, and I think that people is a bit cynical. There a hundred/thousands of people out there doing bussiness with Mambo: templates, custom components, websites creation, and so on...
I know Mambo because I (and another two programmers) was hired to learn it and develop many websites based on it.

With so many people/companys obtaining benefits from the hard work of a small group of people (core team), I'm very surprised  about how so many people suspects of bad intentions by that same people who make's possible that you gain money. They have the same right (at least) than anyone to do that.

Congratulations to the core team for giving a so precious gift to us... :)
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by torkil » Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:10 am

rootropy wrote: With so many people/companys obtaining benefits from the hard work of a small group of people (core team), I'm very surprised  about how so many people suspects of bad intentions by that same people who make's possible that you gain money. They have the same right (at least) than anyone to do that.
I agree completely...

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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by rhuk » Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:05 pm

Guys, guys, guys, don't even jest about this.  People will read and get the wrong impression.  JamboWorks has no intention and never will in anyway seek to gain control of *mambo*, it totally goes against EVERYTHING the company beleives in. The mere fact that it contains core developers shows you that the people that comprise it are passionate about open source and specifically this project.  We will do ANYTHING to protect that, and pulling a 'miro' as you call it, is simple polar opposite of what we are trying to achieve.

Just because we have a company name does not mean we are any less dedicated to this project or the open source principals.
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by jdg » Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:18 pm

Rhuk,

You are absolutely right and I'm on your side all the way.

But, you know how things go in peoples minds, if you're looking hard enough you'll see conspiracies almost everywhere. Heck, you can find about three of four in this thread alone if you read carefull enough... and that's just what I thought to get out of the way.

Truth of the matter is that the GPL will protect the code base to remain Open Source indefinitely. That's the only guarantee anyone should need or seek. Everything else is .... well, that....
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by stingrey » Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:43 pm

As Brian alluded and I myself posted the Core Team is made up of 18 people not just the Development Team.

Further even though I am listed as the Maintenance Team leader I am still involved in Development Team - a look at any changelog would support that.  Also the members of the current Maintenance Team have also been invovled in Development Team work.

=====================

Looking at it from another direction, would it make people more comfortable then if none of the Development Team made any money providing services or support for the software they are developing on their free spare time ;) 
So if someone contacts me asking me to setup a mambo site (which I have the expertise to do) for a fee, I should instead recommend you, or your friend or someone else, as I cant be seen to be making money from the software which I've helped develop.
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by lester » Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:16 pm

@Stingrey

This reminds me of UK members of parliament, who have to declare any conflict of interests between their government role and any other paid role. One example was an MP who argued for cigarettes while he was in the pay of a tobacco company. We don't want that sort of thing happening at OSM.

To my mind it's about "accountability" and that's where a (properly organised) Foundation has a role because it's not possible for a community of thousands of people spread around the world to monitor the activities of 18 Core Team members.

If you have an issue with the crew of a ship, you don't get all heated over it while fighting a war or in a storm. Let's wait for calm seas and then raise these issues at a more practical time. In the meantime, the community needs to be "all hands on deck" and doing anything and everything to help.

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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by rootropy » Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:36 pm

lester wrote: If you have an issue with the crew of a ship, you don't get all heated over it while fighting a war or in a storm.
This is true. I think that It's unbelievable that people pretends core team wasting its time in answering this kind of questions, now...
lester wrote: the community needs to be "all hands on deck" and doing anything and everything to help.
Yes. There are many bad feelings here (you must see spanish forum, things are very hot there) and this is not the moment.
lester wrote: Let's wait for calm seas and then raise these issues at a more practical time. In the meantime,
But what issues...I earn my salary doing some customization to Mambo. A fabulous CMS developed by some guys, with contributions of many more guys. And people thinks that those guys (core team), earning his salary as do I, are doing a terrible thing?

Are you going back to 60's, many LSD'S parties or what?

Maybe we must hire many guys to kidnap the core team, jail them in a dark hole and enslave them for all of their life? We'll be "good", we'll feed them and even let them play FPS sometimes, but they'll be all their life programming for us, while we make bussiness with his code....

I suppose the core team is very busy now with all that's going, so don't waste their time with selfish mistrust.

Thanks for your attention..
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by d2o » Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:47 pm

Funny that. Opposite to some people, seeing those guys earning money by applying an Open Source Solution they are involved with regarding development even raises my confidence in this solution. Not only they need a stable and powerful base for making their own money, all the experience and developments done for customers one way or the other finds its path back into the solution and strengthens its applicability. I much rather like professionals working on a solution I am going to (commercially) apply than relying on hobbyists only who may or may not have some sparetime left for developing it.

I do trust the Core Team.
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by rootropy » Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:02 pm

d2o wrote: Funny that. Opposite to some people, seeing those guys earning money by applying an Open Source Solution they are involved with regarding development even raises my confidence in this solution. Not only they need a stable and powerful base for making their own money, all the experience and developments done for customers one way or the other finds its path back into the solution and strengthens its applicability. I much rather like professionals working on a solution I am going to (commercially) apply than relying on hobbyists only who may or may not have some sparetime left for developing it.
You have been stated perfectly.  :)
d2o wrote: I do trust the Core Team.
I like that sentence. This is the moment of pronunciating, not questioning.

I do trust the Core Team, too.
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by keliix06 » Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:49 pm

stingrey wrote:
So if someone contacts me asking me to setup a mambo site (which I have the expertise to do) for a fee, I should instead recommend you, or your friend or someone else, as I cant be seen to be making money from the software which I've helped develop.
You could send em my way if you ever feel guilty  ;D
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by Vimes » Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:15 am

Am I the only person who thinks there might be a bit of sour grapes in Torkil's friend's comments?
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by jdg » Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:36 am

Vimes wrote: Am I the only person who thinks there might be a bit of sour grapes in Torkil's friend's comments?
No  :D

If Torkil hadn't implicitly stated he's Dutch:
torkil wrote: Searching the dutch forums,
(...)
or some dutch people who have these questions
One might even have thought that he'd come from Melbourne, Australia (and lives in the vincinity of Queen Street).

Speaking of looking for a consipracy... I'm now doing it myself too... bad me.... I promiss I won't do it again ;)
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Re: Critical to OSM

Post by torkil » Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:44 pm

Heh, Torkil is Norwegian. :)

Dutch looks a bit like german, and german is a bit like norwegian ... I was just trying to interpret a bit. I asked the author of that post to post it here in english, and he said he would, but nothing so far...


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