Miro is right!

[ex-mamber]

Why did the core team have to walk away from Mambo, instead of using all of the community support and the combined threat to do so, to make Miro change the Foundation setup?

Because Miro foundation and show that they have community in some nice place where light doesn't come in.
The idea about foundation I think is a nice as I think but it should be prepared by community, from community and for community and for new version of old Mam...bach
...

Thanks for your opinion, but I'd still like an answer from the core devs (who apparently came up with the Foundation idea in the first place, not the community as you suggest).
Time for patience, and trust and everything else will come later. Quick actions requiere quick answers. We're expected to just hang around and wait while stuff happens behind the scenes.. well, starting Monday, I'll be gone for good.. not that it matters, does it? 

[jgobiz]

And Robert? Nothing was ever made public to the mighty community.

For Robert have a look at: http://forum.mamboserver.com/showpost.p ... tcount=349
Best regards,
Joern

[Elpie]

Yep, Miro was right alright.
They said on 23 April, 2003:

We put Mambo on Source Forge in order for people to help get the code 'straightened out' so that it could be re-released commercially.

And..

We offer the open source code at no charge, the community adds to it, we ALL take it away and use it for our own purposes.

Growing the community requires creating a stable developer base and continuing to develop a great product. Instability in the developer group will result in slow, buggy releases that drift away from the original goal. To avoid this we need plenty of interaction and agreement in an environment where we all get something out of being here.

http://web.archive.org/web/200304240517 ... cle&sid=69

[rico!]

ex-mamber has been a contributing member of the community for quite some time and I think he and all the others in the same position deserve some better answers -- from both sides. I'm posting on this thread not because I say "Miro is right" but because i think there are criticisms that can be leveled at the way both sides handled this.

I am NOT happy about the disruption to the product. I am NOT happy the community was left out of this decision to take this very radical step.

As a professional web developer who has invested heavily in building a Mambo client base I am very displeased to see this. Right after a big win at LinuxWorld and on the heels of lots of great press I should be closing sales but instead I am having to now spend time with my clients explaining to them why they should still trust Mambo.

I think maybe some of the hobbyists and idealists in this community -- the first ones to go "yeah underdog" and "rally round the flag" -- need to tone things down a bit and try to remember that there are web designers, studios, and corporate clients who have put faith in a stable and professional development community. (Do remember that this sort of stuff will wind up as fodder for FUD campaigns run by proprietary software vendors. They'll hold this up as an example of how Open Source products are not stable, not professional, not to be trusted. You're playing straight into their hands...!)

The core team has a responsibility to be open with the community, just as Miro had a responsibility to open to the core dev team. Both obligations appear to have been given less than fair treatment, IMHO.

[stingrey]

The core team has a responsibility to be open with the community, just as Miro had a responsibility to open to the core dev team. Both obligations appear to have been given less than fair treatment, IMHO.

http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... 312.0.html

[rico!]

Stingrey, thanks for the reply. I know you from the communtiy and I respect the work you've done.

I read the thread. I am sure the group's intentions are good, but this is not an explanation as to why this move was taken without consultation and why other alternatives were not publicly explored.

Many of us (commercial developers) have money and time invested in the brand. We've worked hard to help establish the credibility fo the product name -- only to find it's all being tossed. We've worked hard to produce good work to convince clients that Open Source can be trusted and can be relied upon -- only to find a group deciding solo to disrupt the entire process to head another direction -- because they are upset over....what exactly? Control? Intentions? Personalities? I am not being facetitious -- I am literally not sure from the amount of information released to date.

I understand you're not happy with the way the Foundation is put together. I'm not defending that. I am questioning the decision to throw it all in the bin without talking to the rest of us.

So, please don't refer me to a thread that talks about good intentions. Please rather explain to me why other alternatives were not explored publicly before taking this radical step.

[mikedeboer]

While reading all the topics on this thread, my patience grew weary and my anger - yes MY ANGER - grew larger and larger!

Why? I'm the creator and lead-developer of zOOm Media Gallery, which has been loyal to Mambo for three years now and for the past few months I have invested a great deal of time in the project, again: a new website, new bugtracker, CVS server, new zOOm Media Gallery version. At some point I was engulfed with praise from the community and never received ONE word from the Mambo team. Not that I ever asked for it or even wanted that so badly - it just seemed peculiar to me.

Now I know what they have talking about and to whom! About MONEY, discussing (or shouting) to themselves. Internal disputes, backstabbing and turning backs to eachother...incredible.

I will keep developing the component, because the user - who ALWAYS supported me and provided me with kind feedback - shouldn't be the losing party in this case. But I will definitely start watching other CMS's who can most likely do a better job at providing feedback to their 3PD's!

Dear OSM and Peter Lamont: stop thinking solely about you own welfare, but also about the welfare of others! Rico! isn't the only one here who's income 'sort of' depends on this Open Source project!

Additionally, Mambo isn't the only and first Open Source project that has gone through these kind of problems already! Please, try to learn from, for example, Sun Microsystems and others! Please!

Kind regards,

Mike de Boer.
The Netherlands

[pasamio]

Are you sure that's how it happened?

pure speculation. i think

The idea was put to the MSC that the Foundation be set up and the copyright transferred to this organisation. The idea passed many moons ago and hasn't happened, but now Miro have set up the Foundation all on their own. The copyright, trademarks and domains haven't moved an inch from Miro's control, and Miro appear to want full control of the Foundation. Draw your conclusions from there.

[stingrey]

Many of us (commercial developers) have money and time invested in the brand. We've worked hard to help establish the credibility fo the product name -- only to find it's all being tossed. We've worked hard to produce good work to convince clients that Open Source can be trusted and can be relied upon -- only to find a group deciding solo to disrupt the entire process to head another direction.

I'd also just like to kindly point out:

All members of the Core Team listed on the statement (and the numerous before us, whose torch we bear)  have all contributed thousands of man hours towards this project.  All in our own spare time, often through the nite into the early morning hours after a 'normal' day job, - some like Andrew, Emir & Brian have done so for more than 3 years.  The majority of the team also juggle parenthood and famiily life - how my fellow colleagues are able to do this still astounds me.

Everybodies time is money, yours and ours the communities.  Everybodies time is valuable, yours and ours the communities.  All of us have all been working to build the brand and push OS, only last week our had two of the core team promoting Mambo at the SF Expo. 
Everyone has lost because of this, you, us the community.
However, we were forced into this decision and had no other choice.

Please rather explain to me why other alternatives were not explored publicly before taking this radical step.

And i gladly would if i could, but there are always issues such as privacy and other legalities that need to be considered and why we have been tolld by our legal representation (Software Freedom Law Center) not to go into detail.  Our hands are tied.
I'm sure in running your enterprise there are some matters you cant divulge to the public either.

[stingrey]

At some point I was engulfed with praise from the community and never received ONE word from the Mambo team. Not that I ever asked for it or even wanted that so badly - it just seemed peculiar to me.

I'm sorry if you feel that we might have somehow ignored you. 
We are grateful for all the 3PDs who have developed apps for Mambo.  Mambo would not have been what it was if not for the 3PD apps created by people like you Mike
In fact Mambo only worked because of 3PD that were created as this is how Mambo was built as an application framework.

From a personal standpoint I have never used your component or probably 80% of the apps created.  There was a time (before i became a core dev) that I was able to test and try every addon made, but the sheer numbers created by the dedicated people like yourself now make that close to impossible.
However, i have recommended it to others and have heard excellent reports from people that use it. 
And it was(and still is) on a list of components I am considering for a new site I have to build.

===============================

Now I know what they have talking about and to whom! About MONEY, discussing (or shouting) to themselves. Internal disputes, backstabbing and turning backs to eachother...incredible.

None of the Core has ever asked for money to work on the Mambo Core, some of us do have businesses that market mambo as solutions for companies, but this is totally separate from our work on the core.  We worked on the core and will continue to work on the core because we wish to help others - which i'm sure is the same motivation that drives you when you work on zOOm.

===============================

Dear OSM and Peter Lamont: stop thinking solely about you own welfare, but also about the welfare of others! Rico! isn't the only one here who's income 'sort of' depends on this Open Source project!

If we were thinking only of our own welfare, we probably all would have simply resigned from the project totally.  We made this decision because we believe in what we have produced and believe that the community deserves better than what Miro was after.

===============================

I sincerely hope one day soon we can reveal everything behind our decision.

[ex-mamber]

Rey,
Why are you the only one from the Core team answering here (mostly with links to the FAQs I guess everyone would/should have read)? Just curious, and not meaning to sound agressive.. where's the rest of the gang?

We made this decision because we believe in what we have produced and believe that the community deserves better than what Miro was after.

I believe Miro has put their commercial interests above the community and thus killed Mambo (at least the name).
I also feel like Core has put their Team interests above the community (as the 3PD example just posted seems to prove) by walking away from everything "mambo" (ie, any site with those 5 letters in it's name, like all the local support sites for example), instead of trying to rally everyone and put some heavy pressure on Miro. You acted for the best of the team (which is ok) but not the community (which is not ok). Untill proven differently, this is the main thing I didn't like about how all this was handled.

I told vavroom earlier today how this makes me feel:
Imagine a child comes back home to find the parents are gone, without any warning. The house is empty, and the lights are being switched off one by one. The only thing left is a note saying "Sorry, can't celebrate your 453 birthday as we wanted to about half a year ago already. We're gone to build a new house, don't know yet where and when it will be ready, and we can't tell you anything; you'll just have to wait. You'll get your gift sometime later, we don't know when, it might be something else by then also, but don't worry. It will be just as before, trust us." What is this child going to do, all by himself now?... The old home is abandoned, so not a home anymore, there is no new place (what is it called, if there is? and don't anyone answer OSM..) to go to.. the child just leaves, and waits for his parents to come looking for him whenever they feel ready. I guess. I have a real-life move to get done these next 10 days anyway, so that's ok.

I sincerely hope one day soon we can reveal everything behind our decision.

Me too, I'm waiting for that day then.

[stingrey]

Why are you the only one from the Core team answering here (mostly with links to the FAQs I guess everyone would/should have read)? Just curious, and not meaning to sound agressive.. where's the rest of the gang?

The rest of the gang are around and have posted if you look around.
Its simply that I have always been the most active in looking through the forums that i happen to post more.
Also fortuitously I've been sick the last few days, so I havent been at work, giving me time to surf the forums.

Remember everybody has a day jobs as well and almost all the others have families, I know one of the members had one of their kids in hospital during this perod and still he has managed to participate in internal discussions.


So no conspiracy in that regard, its merely I have the most time to monitor and post on the forums and with Brad away I'm filling in as Forum Administrator

[rico!]

And if the interim difficulties cause problems for you or your clients, then that's tough.

This exactly the sort of thinking I have a problem with: Wake up! It's not about Miro, it's not about the Dev team, it's not about the develoepr's, it's not about me or my business, IT'S ABOUT THE END USERS.

That's the purpose of existence of this software. That's the purpose of existence of the web development efforts.

If you lose sight of the fact that first, last, and always, IT'S ABOUT THE END USERS, then you've lost the thread completely and this is nothing but navel gazing. This is EXACTLY what the critics of Open Source will point to when they say the movement is not commercially practicable.

Those of the group who are so caught up in the "big picture" of the community need to step back a moment and look at The Big Picture of the OSS Movement and then assess how this little battle affects the wider ranging war.

[absalom]

Which is why the message on my site to my clients regarding this is, essentially, it's business as usual.

[tjay]

Everyone is allowed their opinion.
Rico I think you will find that yours is a minority view.
What has transpired in the past few days has not been easy on anyone. The core team least of all.
Let me suggest that ALL of us need to chill out and quit DEMANDING answers that can not and should not be answered until the legal issues have been dealt with.
The core team has published a very well thought out letter to the community and they have acted quickly to insure that development and support will continue.
It has personally amazed me that it has moved this quickly
Let's stop shooting the messanger. Robert came out on the mamboserver forums and did his best to answer questions and was piled on for it.
Stingrey has also done his best to be as forth coming as he can at the moment, and now folks want to throw fits and go after him.
Take a breath and give it a few days, if your projects are that critical then surely you must have something to work on while these matters are resolved. WHY the core team did what they did seems very apparent to most of us. And most of us are standing behind them totally.
It seems we all have a choice to make, where are we going to look for the future of this CMS. Here or mamboserver. Simply make a choice on what you know to date. That is all you or anyone can do at this time.
DEMANDING answers to questions that wont be answered yet is just asking for frustration and is a total waste of everyones precious time.

[pasamio]

This exactly the sort of thinking I have a problem with: Wake up! It's not about Miro, it's not about the Dev team, it's not about the develoepr's, it's not about me or my business, IT'S ABOUT THE END USERS.

If you want to become a 3PD and pay the money Miro is asking, then so be it, you can stay with them, but you'll find the majority of 3PD may not have that sort of money to do that sort of work, let alone so of the larger sums of money that are being asked, unless you want to freely give your time to improve the Core (and  Miro as a whole). Personally I see Miro's move as a great step in the wrong direction by killing off what makes Mambo what it is: a framework with a lot of really cool 3PD components, template, modules and mambots.

I'm not sure if you were around in the good old days when there was no Mamboforge and it lived on SF. Back in those days Mambo was relatively small and there weren't many 3PD components available. Fast forward to now, Mambo is winning awards because of primarily the 3PD community that provides all of the really cool stuff while the Core Dev's spend time improving things for the 3PD's who spend time improving and writing components/modules/templates/mambots for the END USER. So if we're going to worry about the end user, then killing any link in the chain above them is going to impact, and as far as I can see, Miro are attempting to kill the 3PD link.

[mikedeboer]

We are grateful for all the 3PDs who have developed apps for Mambo.  Mambo would not have been what it was if not for the 3PD apps created by people like you Mike

Thanks Rey, that's really nice to hear and gives me some more hope for the future of Mambo - or whatever it's going to be called after this crisis 

None of the Core has ever asked for money to work on the Mambo Core, so of us do have business that market mambo as solutions for companies, but this is totally separate from our work on the core.  We worked on the core and will continue to work on the core because we wish to help others - which i'm sure is the same motivation that drives you when you work on zOOm.

Yes, that's exactly the same motivation that drives me to keep working on zOOm now until the long distant future. The Mambo/ zOOm combo also gave a lot of business opportunities to be grateful for and I will not forget that's partly because of you guys!

If we were thinking only of our own welfare, we probably all would have simply resigned from the project totally.

So, my final decision on this matter is the following: I will completely support the dev team in this struggle and try to take your word for it, Rey!
Better yet, if there's anything I can do for you, please let me know...I'll try to pull any strings necessary. In the mean while I'll try to release a new RC of zOOm the next few days to let people know that that the development WILL go on and meanwhile look forward to a more clear and bright future instead of this mess...

I hope that this website isn't going to prove that TOO MUCH openness is wrong as well...but for now it has proven useful for me and provides a nice resource with TRUTH.

Best regards to you Rey, and I hope to hear from you in the future (for example, if you ever consider using zOOm in your website...I'll help you out for free  :P )

Mike.

[fatflash]

I really enjoyed this thread, btw hope you get better soon Rey, not that we don't like having you around, but being ill sux. 

One thing I'd like to add to this:

I do ask myself if all diplomatic efforts have been exausted, but I am willing to wait for the answers that come out of the counseling.

Like some of you, I have money invested in Mambo, and these events have proven to be a nerve test, just having to sit back and let time go by doing 'nada'.

I think the core dev team should make all efforts to be as transparent about the future as possible (and legaly advisable) and show more care for 3PDevelopers (no rant here, just speaking freely).

I do look forward to the new versions of this CMS and the potential benefits it may bring us all.

[ex-mamber]

@ tjay:

Everyone is allowed their opinion.

Just not to express them, right?

Rico I think you will find that yours is a minority view.

That doesn't make it wrong though, does it?

The core team has published a very well thought out letter to the community and they have acted quickly to insure that development and support will continue.

That is precisely the problem some are trying to point out: Core acted, and THEN published a letter to explain why, just as Miro acted and then made their announcement. In both cases, the so-much-talked-about community was never involved.

Let's stop shooting the messanger. Robert came out on the mamboserver forums and did his best to answer questions and was piled on for it.

Exactly.

Stingrey has also done his best to be as forth coming as he can at the moment, and now folks want to throw fits and go after him.

No-one is after Rey, he's always been the most "public" of the Core devs, helpful. What some are after is not people, but answers.

Take a breath and give it a few days, if your projects are that critical then surely you must have something to work on while these matters are resolved. WHY the core team did what they did seems very apparent to most of us. And most of us are standing behind them totally.

WHY is apparent to most of you, not to me (as due to legal matters, it can't be explained). Standing behind them, of course, but that doesn't keep me from not liking the modus operandi.

It seems we all have a choice to make, where are we going to look for the future of this CMS. Here or mamboserver. Simply make a choice on what you know to date.

Not really much of a choice, don't you think? Miro has vanished, "official" forums are dead and users there abandonned.. where's the choice?

That is all you or anyone can do at this time.

Which is unfortunate. No perspectives don't make for a bright sight of the future. I can't do anything? Why should I stay then?

DEMANDING answers to questions that wont be answered yet is just asking for frustration and is a total waste of everyones precious time.

I am frustrated already. It is not a waste of time, as it makes it clear that these questions are there, waiting to be answered.. sometime, whenever possible, as soon as possible. Does everyone have to say bravo, well done, good job, and no-one is to speak their mind? I have asked all my questions anyway, and today is my last day posting here, so don't worry, won't bug you no more. I'll post my good-bye later on.
A bit easy to say: that's how it is, accept it and stop asking, you won't get answers anyway. The legal issues put forward as the reason for not providing answers (which is a good reason, I admit, but what exactly are these legal reasons then, that much must be possible to tell?) have arisen because of the way this was handled. Had the dev team stayed, asked for community support (and gotten it obviously), everyone would have been involved. It would have been a free decision to support the dev team; as it stands now, you have to say amen and sign up here, because the other place is dead and abandonned; people haven't been asked if they want to, they are being pointed here by posts saying "if you want answers, go to OSM". It's all about choice, but there was no choice given.
Well, I've seen people try to explain stuff to you before, but you seem quite unwilling to accept and try to understand other views, which is sad. Never mind, doesn't matter, Open Source does

[jgobiz]

@ tjay:

It seems we all have a choice to make, where are we going to look for the future of this CMS. Here or mamboserver. Simply make a choice on what you know to date.

Not really much of a choice, don't you think? Miro has vanished, "official" forums are dead and users there abandonned.. where's the choice?

That is all you or anyone can do at this time.

Which is unfortunate. No perspectives don't make for a bright sight of the future. I can't do anything? Why should I stay then?

If i do business, i have to make a worst case scenario. And sometimes "worst case" happened. That is the reason for the scenario and a problem of myself, no-one else has to nor can do that for me. And: It´s life. The prudence may be with you :-)
Best regards,
Joern

[alwarren]

WHY is apparent to most of you, not to me (as due to legal matters, it can't be explained). Standing behind them, of course, but that doesn't keep me from not liking the modus operandi.

Neither you nor I nor anyone except the development team knows why. They have been advised by legal counsel to not comment further. That should be enough for now.

[ex-mamber]

...nor anyone except the development team knows why.

bad, if true.

[alwarren]

...nor anyone except the development team knows why.

bad, if true.

Not necessarily. But if counsel says don't talk you don't talk. Be patient. The whys and why nots are not important at this point.

[Triplicate]

Why would Miro take such a big risk in loosing it all? This doesn't make sense to me.

Stupidity... the world is full of idiots and Miro has show what catagory they fall into.

[tjay]

it is amazing to me that this "we dont trust the core team" sentiment could even exist given the events of the past few days.
We are going to have to trust someone folks.
Who Ya gonna trust
Miro
core team

[Triplicate]

I agree with Ben - there are a number of very good reasons for forming a foundation.

To name but one, by placing the 'ownership' of the this project in the hands of an incorporated foundation, the Core Dev's would have some legal protection should anything ever go wrong.

As things stand the Core Team would have a personal liability should someone ever successful sue over a patent or copyright infringement - as an incorporated foundation that liability would be legally limited. If something went wrong, you simply fold the foundation, killing the liability with it, and move on - the software being open source can simply be picked up and taken forward, by the same development team, under a new name - and a new foundation if necessary.

stuff ommitted

As many have already said ... you don't need a foundation. It's open source! "ownership" is already in the hands of the devs. Putting ownership in the hands of a corporation is precisely what not to do.

The Devs don't need "legal protection". It's open souce!
What specifically could "go wrong"? It's open souce! Many contribute!

No one can "sue over a patent or copyright infringement"  It's open souce! Who are you going to sue? There are many contributers! Are you going to sue everyone LOL Just one? LOL It's open souce!

Some thing has gone wrong and they are moving on. Why... because Miro is WRONG and we don't need a foundation. It's open souce!

[tjay]

no it is
we dont need no STINKIN foundation

lol

[rico!]

The Mambo Foundation has replied by way of an interview published here:

http://ricshreves.net/

Spread the word.

[tjay]

It is well written. In the end it is one side of the story. And they all have two.
Thanks for sharing, but for one the comment about not sensoring was a load of, well you know what.
If he could address the facts about that event in the non-stick manner that he did, makes me wonder if he is in the land of denial on his other answers

[pasamio]

I agree with Ben - there are a number of very good reasons for forming a foundation.

To name but one, by placing the 'ownership' of the this project in the hands of an incorporated foundation, the Core Dev's would have some legal protection should anything ever go wrong.

As things stand the Core Team would have a personal liability should someone ever successful sue over a patent or copyright infringement - as an incorporated foundation that liability would be legally limited. If something went wrong, you simply fold the foundation, killing the liability with it, and move on - the software being open source can simply be picked up and taken forward, by the same development team, under a new name - and a new foundation if necessary.

stuff ommitted

As many have already said ... you don't need a foundation. It's open source! "ownership" is already in the hands of the devs. Putting ownership in the hands of a corporation is precisely what not to do.

The Devs don't need "legal protection". It's open souce!
What specifically could "go wrong"? It's open souce! Many contribute!

No one can "sue over a patent or copyright infringement"  It's open souce! Who are you going to sue? There are many contributers! Are you going to sue everyone LOL Just one? LOL It's open souce!

Some thing has gone wrong and they are moving on. Why... because Miro is WRONG and we don't need a foundation. It's open souce!

Problem is the fact that 1) Devs have signed copyright agreements and 2) if you look at all of the code its all tagged witih Miro copyright. As I've stated the Foundation was supposed to be there to put everything (trademarks, domains and copyrights) into one name and one secure location, at the moment Miro (still) hold all of them under their control. By Miro appearing to directly control the Foundation, they are still keeping a tight grasp on the Mambo project and doing their best to make money from it.