Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Reaction to the statement posted on www.opensourcematters.org
ex-mamber

Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by ex-mamber » Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:38 pm

Actions must be explained to be understood.
If no explanation is possible, the actions and their consequences must speak for themselves.
Informed decisions can not be taken as there is no information.
Everyone brings this down to: which side are you on/going to believe/trust, Miro or Core.
That is not the point, anyone in their right mind will believe Core.
The point is, so far there is not much explanation about the background of the whole mess.
The decisions taken, were taken without ever asking or telling the community by both parties.
Apparently, considering how long legal issues usually take, answers won't be availbalbe for months to come.
At least. I don't have time to wait.

I do not want to be "in" something I am not part of.
I was part of the Doc Team, and have not been informed beforehand.
While I was part of the Doc Team, I never felt I belonged to the Core, and there never really was a "team".
Never any transparency, everything and all decisions happened behing closed doors.
I was going to resign March 1st already from that team, reconsidered, but not this time.
I am not going to post some of the reasons here as they would not please some persons,
I can mail them to anyone really curious, some people already know...
I will not log back in here, so please don't bother PM-ing me.

Parting suggestions:
People on the Core/dev team are doing too many things at once to be profitable.
Back in March already, Andrew said "..responsibilities and time committment to non-coding aspects of Mambo is growing everyday"
for the dev team; what must it be like today..
Dev and Maintainance should do just that, not organize the whole Project, manage the Forums etc.
People on the Doc Team are slowed down by indirect communication through Michelle,
no direct access to information (had that once for a few weeks when it was urgent to finalize
452 docs with devs answering our questions; never came back after that).
How do you expect to build more commitment (please do so!) without proper structure,
feedback and communication channels?

Back in March, Andrew answered me that despite an apparent need for such teams as translation for example,
nothing would be done until management ressources were available and commitment proven.
Now is the time to take advantage of the offered (human) ressources, build larger teams, recruit some people
to get Mambo -sorry, "whatever" - moving forward quickly, before it is forgotten.
IMHO, Core must have by now realized who is sticking around and has some good coding abilities: they are here!
(I could name a few, but I don't think I need to, everyone knows the names...).
They could be asked at least to be part of Core, maybe not immediately, but once "the dust settles"..
And what does Rey answer to this question:
[quote=∓quot;Aristocrat"\]How can one become a Mambo core developer?[/quote]
(http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... ,81.0.html)?
[quote=∓quot;stingrey"\]At this stage we dont have any plans to increase the Development Team.
Right now our priority is to organize and put into place our action plans.
[/quote]
This has been the standard answer for a while now.
Core have always picked new members themselves, you never could apply..could you?
(sort of like this Foundation thing..) ;)

It is very good to want to structure, plan and organize first, it seems like the perfect time to do so now!
Define global direction, target audience, roadmap, milestones etc etc
But think about the future at the same time, add manpower and ressources you can use later -soon.

Still in March, Andrew answered also that
[quote=∓quot;masterchief"\]4.5.3 is almost completely language work.
It's not finished hence no updates.
FYI, I've placed a feature freeze on 4.5.3 development apart from finishing the language work because this is a big job. (march 3rd)[/quote]
That was five months ago, and (I know it must be more fun coding) if I look at all the new stuff in the changelog since then,
well.. where is 453 now? Dev cycles were supposed to last 4-6 weeks. Lots of stuff would've been good in 454 also..

And finally
[quote=∓quot;masterchief"\]I know mambo needs to be a lot bigger but to we do not have the internal structure yet
to support all those teams working well under our banner (more people mean more management). (march 3rd)[/quote]
Please get that structure done first!
Use all these helping hands before the momentum is gone and people get tired of waiting.
Give them something to do and things to look forward to (team management..)!
Don't dismiss critical voices, think about what they say.
Make "whatever" the best CMS again!
Good luck to all.

Please delete my account now.

I am not angry, just slightly sad.
I fully support Andrew and the team.

If I sign up again, it will either be as eyezberg
(with a real photo, as even my avatars were critizised..)
or not at all. Thank you and good bye.

Getting back into the real life ;)

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by tjay » Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:46 pm

Sad to see you go, but I do understand.
Very trying and frustrating times for all.

Have some fun out there in the real world. I found it does wonders to put things into perspective.

I am sure most of us hope to see the avatar some day, but for now we just have to respect your decision.
This day it is my wish that I helped you to live

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by infograf768 » Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:02 pm

See you soon, Joel.

Take care.
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by hazman » Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:15 pm

I hate to see you go, I hate to see one of the good ones go!

Good luck to you my friend.

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by iainshaw » Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:16 pm

bye Joe.  You are a great member of this community
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by guider » Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:17 pm

everything and all decisions happened behing closed doors.
That's a pity. Sure hope you put in feedback on that before deciding to part.

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by Dikud » Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:23 pm

It really sadly to hear, but a lot of prophetic told by you are disturbing enough. We all are really tired to wait and we are waiting again. I do not think is a problem for Andrew to use of knowledge of project management ;). I have experience in this activity (I mean the coordination of the distributed command) and I wish to note, that it is one of challenges (Hey, Eddie! We use dotProject thanks a lot!:)).

At this time we trust developers because we could not be trusted anybody more. After OSM.org was born I'm worrying that there can be 5 more months. It seems to me, that all guys should be more open in the plans and to cease to ignore free hands. At least, eyesberg looks quite reasonable in this sense.
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by chette » Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:31 pm

Kinda hit me hard. I’m an ordinary-and-not-core-team-and-not-developing-plugins user, and for me, eyezberg was one of the most prominent nicks on the board. On a personal level, he was also one of the four or six nicks who would never fail to answer my stupidest questions.

There are some valid questions which were raised by eyezberg, and actually by the other forum members, too. This post is not to pressure the core dev team to give the answers now – I know migration is pretty tough, and it would take at least a week to get everything in order. However, I do hope that when everything settles down, a strong communications strategy would be one of the priorities.

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by guider » Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:40 pm

all guys should be more open in the plans and to cease to ignore free hands. At least, eyesberg looks quite reasonable in this sense.
They should consider where to take *ambo first. Then there's room in the boat to get there.

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by Predator » Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:48 pm

I`m not that long with $ambo but i have ever looked with respect to your well writen posts and your helping hand to everybody, i wish i had that patience sometimes to answer so many question as you have done.

I feel sorry to lose such a deserved member of the community.  :'(
The "Humor, Fun and Games" forum has  more than 2500 Posts, so why not build a "Humor, Fun and Games Working" Group?
.....
Malicious tongues say we have this WG right from the start, they call it core team :D

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by TomT » Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:52 pm

Like many others i hate to see eyezberg go. But I don't see a reason for impatience. I'm stiil working with Mam$o creating websites as usual. And, Dikud,  I trust the core team because I trust them, not because I mistrust Miro.

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by Dragon Company » Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:18 pm

Take care Eyezberg, hope to see you again ... and I'm quie sad to read that ... Thanks for all you've done !

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by gsbe » Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:13 pm

New versions of $ambo require the care and feeding of many people. Let these people work on code while we work on utilizing it better and helping others do so.

We are supposed to be using the code that this project is developing. Isn't that why we're here, because $ambo is a solution to problems that we have? If you have custom needs for your projects be sure that the project can fund the development of these custom needs! We cannot ask the people giving up their time to create this great project to give any more than they do.

We all came to $ambo because it is a solution to many of our problems and is easy to use. Rejoice that there is such software available to help you and trust in the fact that it will continue to get better on its own schedule! Rejoice that there are people so dedicated to the fundamentals of helping the world with open source solutions that they have cut off their own lifeline to be able to continue doing so!

This great open source endeavor will continue to flourish. The changes that we all seek for this project's code will come to fruition. ACL issues, languages, reliance on itemID, and the rest are all on the chopping block. In addition to these great features, the community is growing and needs a more organized way of achieving them. As we've already seen, these changes have great growing pains associated with them. Thanks for everyone's help and support for this great project. May it continue to grow in peace.
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by jgobiz » Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:48 pm

The devTeam could consider what they may want to consider. But they might be late comers, because the community they want to "come into the boat", feet the fish already.

The points eyezberg has spoken about, are not things, that have to be considered now! They have to be considered in a worst case scenario. May be decisions were made, without thinking about a worst case. [censored] happens sometimes. So that is not a genuine Problem. Neither for the devTeam nor for the community. That´s life!

What eyezberg realized is, that the devTeam may not have the ability, not the capacity, not ..., not ..., not .... They do not have a gloriole at all. In a situation right now, you don´t have to consider how to optimize things, you have to decide. First decision: all the community members have to come into the boat! Anyone could do something! And anyone want´s to do something! "Can I do something?" ... "No, not now (at all?)" What kind of leadership is that!? Later the devTeam or who ever else, may optimize and give it a detailed structure. Who resides in the devBoat, who resides in the docBoat, who resides in anyBoat, whom do we need for anything.

I guess, eyezberg gave us a kind of roadmap for action! He want to give us (community and devTeam) a point of view for the abilities that are necessary to make decisions! "Thank you eyezberg" ... "nice to meet you here again sometimes" ... That are no reasons for eyezberg "getting back into real life" ... So what he, for sure, not wanted is driving us to say "Thank you and bye bye, eyezberg!" Eyezberg want´s to drive the devTeam and us into action he described in his "parted suggestions"!

It´s worth the time to say "Thank you eyezberg", because Joe will be back soon after that kind of action starts ;-)

Best regards,
Joern

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by Michelle Bisson » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:16 am

First of all, Eyezberg, I wish to personnally thank you for all of your contributions to the doc team.  If we had 5 people who work as hard as you did, we would be much further along in the project. 



Please feel free to visit us from time to time. 
All the best and sucess in whatever you do!!!
Thank you!!!!
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by absalom » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:21 am

Eyezberg,

Thanks for all your valued contributions to development, documentation and other things. You will always be a respected member of this community. Your thoughts and insights are always helpful.

As Michelle suggested, by all means, visit from time to time and go well in whatever path you now travel.
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by Saka » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:27 am

Eyezberg, I would hate to see you go so I ask you to please reconsider.

You have made some valid points but you should also understand that things have not been easy for us either. We laid much hope in recent reorganizations but it just led to where we stand today.
Now we need to organize again but I am sure we will get things right this time. So please bear with us and stick around. You are very valuable community member and your work has been appreciated.
Last edited by Saka on Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by stingrey » Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:02 pm

I echo the sentiment of the others.

We thank Eyezberg for all his contributions to the community. 
I'm sure I speak for all the countless thousands of people you have helped when I say, Thank You


I do hope we will see you back.


Anyway all the best to future endeavours whatever they may be.
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by Elpie » Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:39 pm

Joe, I am so sorry you are leaving and wish you would reconsider.  I was a member over at the other forums for a long time, but rarely posted.  (Took me years to get my post count to where it is here). The reason for that was simply that people like you committed so much time and effort into answering questions that anything I was looking for had already been answered.  Your name was under many of those responses. I am just one of many people who were the nameless ones you have helped.  Heck, I didn't even have to log on and ask!
For that, I thank you.

I hope you will be back once the dust settles. 
The very best of wishes for whatever you do, Joe. 
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by xperis » Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:16 pm

Miro sets up the legal frame work for a foundation without talking to the core, the core leaves.

The core leaves the project without talking to Miro or the community, so now some of the community leaves.

PLEASE can people take time to talk!!!

I am 100% behind the core, they did the work.  But I am not 100% sure they took enough time in deciding to leave. 

As someone who loves Mambo.. I would really hate to see it become like ____Nuke with forks all over and mixed levels of compatibility for third-party developers.

Before we all go LEAVING out of a feeling of being left out.  Take the time to talk the people.

It has been pointed out that the foundation is keeping mamboserver.com upto date.  Right now we have a core dev team without a business team to do stuff like that.  We have a foundation without a core dev team.

PLEASE talk.. I think there is a solution that would keep Mambo whole. 
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by jema » Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:21 pm

xperis wrote: PLEASE talk.. I think there is a solution that would keep Mambo whole. 
I am sure we would all like to think so, and I am sure we would all appeal to the "core" to explore every avenue.

Frankly though I have enough respect for them to assume that given the realistic prospect of a solution, they would be doing this without being asked.

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by TomT » Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:25 pm

xperis wrote: PLEASE talk.. I think there is a solution that would keep Mambo whole. 
After following the information from both sides there can be only one conclusion: Mambo is history. Let's focus on the future and leave Miro behind. That's just the way life is.

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by alwarren » Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:58 pm

TomT wrote:
xperis wrote: PLEASE talk.. I think there is a solution that would keep Mambo whole. 
After following the information from both sides there can be only one conclusion: Mambo is history. Let's focus on the future and leave Miro behind. That's just the way life is.
This is what I've been trying to stress when I can on the other board:
The core developers didn't resign from the project. They simply took it to their own server and severed ties with Miro. The award winning software, its award winning development team, and its community now reside at www.opensourcematters.org.
We have to remember that only the name is history. The project is very much alive and well in the hands of the development team.
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by Robin » Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:01 pm

I salute you...sorry to see you go !
Hope you check in once in a while...

Take care and safe journeys...

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by xperis » Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:03 pm

alwarren wrote:

We have to remember that only the name is history. The project is very much alive and well in the hands of the development team.
The name, various copyrights though it sounds like the "evil" Miro isn't going to protest a fork under a new name*.
All the awards and history and reference sites like Porche Brazil etc.  All gone...

*Given how some reacted to sites with out the "Powered by Mambo" footer I am wondering if the some who are just ready to dump all the brand history etc, would have been as accepting of a fork with a new name as Miro is.

I can see there was a mis-understanding, I can see Miro has made some initial decisions for the foundation that bothered some of us.  But I don't see them acting the part many have assigned them as "evil destroyer of all good and Mambo."  That is why I wonder how much of this is missunderstanding.

It is also why I am worried about the core is defering attempts to talk from the foundation to attornies.  I have never see attornies improve a relationship.

I am sure most of the best devs and community will follow this fork.  But it is not a decision that comes for free.  It also makes building a "stable" history that enterprise customers like to see harder.  It is a set back for "Mambo" as an identity.  The code goes on, the reputation starts from scratch for many. Frankly, it is a bad moment for open-source now that Mambo has the visabiity, it all doesn't look very professional to the outside no matter how true the reasons are.

One possible outcome is a company that chose Mambo because it had certain add-on available in 6 months may find that an upgrade to Foundation Mambo breaks some add-ons that followed this this fork and and upgrade to Unamed CMS breaks some add-ons that tracked with the other code fork.  Forking a good prodcut just as it has achieved reputation has problems. This will not be a free ride and neither fork may ever reach the same level of respect again for various reasons, including the fear that this could happen again.
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by TomT » Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:15 pm

xperis wrote:
I can see there was a mis-understanding, I can see Miro has made some initial decisions for the foundation that bothered some of us.  But I don't see them acting the part many have assigned them as "evil destroyer of all good and Mambo."  That is why I wonder how much of this is missunderstanding.
I just read the ricshreves.net 'interview' and it agains shows there is no misunderstanding: it's a plain hostile takeover.

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by Grisbald » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:30 pm

A big part of any open source project is passion. I think that is the word I would use to best describe eyezberg's role in this community. He was prolific - just as likely to help a first time poster as provide a detailed critique of some aspect of the CVS code to the core team. He was a lightening rod, generating comment and debate around issues he believed in. I hope we haven't seen the last of him because I always found his ideas interesting and worthwhile.

As a project grows, it is important for the leadership and management structures grow to support the community - of developers as well as users. It is clear that the project formerly known as Mambo is going through some painful growth right now. We've learned that Miro is not the answer, right? I bet Andrew and the gang would much prefer to work on the codebase rather than build infrastructure and rally the community right now. 

Should a project like this be democratic? I don't think necessarily so. Design by committee results in a bad product. Unity of vision is critical to the success of this community. Does this mean that dissenting ideas should be discouraged, or worse ignored. No, and I don't think its the case here with eyezberg's departure. There is perhaps merit in discussing how to open some of the core processes up a little but I understand that this can be a tricky balance. To much openness can result in unproductive debate rather than progress on the code. I bet the delay of 4.5.3 is a result of opening up to too many ideas at once and then underestimating the complexity that those ideas brought. I'm eager to see 4.5.3 released - I've been following the progress on CVS - but I'm willing to wait even if my expectations have been abused with little word.

I think passion must be accompanied by patience. Ideas ultimately win out if they are good ones. And if not, the core team will measure its success by the size and quality of its community. After all, there are many competing (perhaps not a good word) CMS projects out there equally as deserving of passion. And if all else fails, why not pick up ruby on rails and do something magical. Mambo on Rails, now there's a thought.

Peace eyezberg. Hope to see you again.
Regards,
Tim Pascal

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by alwarren » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:40 pm

xperis wrote: Miro isn't going to protest a fork under a new name
This is NOT a fork. It is the same product. Same development team. Same roadmap. Same bugtracker. Same CMTs. Same community of users. Yada Yada. I don't see what is so difficult to understand about that.
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by xperis » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:41 pm

TomT wrote: I just read the ricshreves.net 'interview' and it agains shows there is no misunderstanding: it's a plain hostile takeover.
Can you elaborate?  
It was that interview that got me asking questions rather than just taking sides.
Which part is a hostile take over and how would you have done it differently?
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by alwarren » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:44 pm

xperis wrote:
TomT wrote: I just read the ricshreves.net 'interview' and it agains shows there is no misunderstanding: it's a plain hostile takeover.
Can you elaborate?  
It was that interview that got me asking questions rather than just taking sides.
Which part is a hostile take over and how would you have done it differently?
Dont rely on media spin. Read the rules of association, the membership agreement, the rights by membership. Maybe then you'll understand.
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