Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Reaction to the statement posted on www.opensourcematters.org
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by jema » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:48 pm

alwarren wrote:
Dont rely on media spin. Read the rules of association, the membership agreement, the rights by membership. Maybe then you'll understand.
I reckon with time and money needed to come up with that many legal clauses, I could have done something useful, like maybe write a CMS :D it really is quite mind boggling to figure out how something based on Open Source could concievably need half that bollux  ::)

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by xperis » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:57 pm

alwarren wrote:
xperis wrote: Miro isn't going to protest a fork under a new name
This is NOT a fork. It is the same product. Same development team. Same roadmap. Same bugtracker. Same CMTs. Same community of users. Yada Yada. I don't see what is so difficult to understand about that.
That is schemantics that don't reflect the legal realities. If this happens the code forks into two versions and this fork goes on with code copyright "The Mambo Foundation" all over it.  And it leaves behind except in this community all the reputation and references behind. 
Different servers, different URLS, different name...  an yes I will also consider what TMF releases next a fork too.  But legally, this is the fork.  It has always been clear that part of the license says you can't call "Mambo your own"  that means I am sure if they wanted they could make some legal trouble about a new project name that is 90% code they own the copyright to.
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by keliix06 » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:04 pm

xperis wrote: that means I am sure if they wanted they could make some legal trouble about a new project name that is 90% code they own the copyright to.
The GPL license specifically prevents that.
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by alandd » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:12 pm

xperis wrote: ...It has always been clear that part of the license says you can't call "Mambo your own"  that means I am sure if they wanted they could make some legal trouble about a new project name that is 90% code they own the copyright to.
The code copyright is completely and legally separate from the name trademark.

The code is licensed under GPL so anyone can use it, as long as they follow that license.  That license does not apply to the name.

The name tradmark is owned by Miro, presumably.  Any rules for it's use, it's license, is separate from the code and such rules do not apply to the code.

If the new name is similar to "Mambo" or has the word "Mambo" in it, there could be trademark grounds for Miro to take legal action.  However, the new project could be 100% copyrighted by Miro and as long as it is GPL, Miro has no grounds to take action if the new name is different.

Short version: The trademark controls on the name have no effect on the copyright of the code or vice versa.  Period.

IANAL so usual such disclaimers apply.

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by xperis » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:28 pm

alwarren wrote:
Dont rely on media spin. Read the rules of association, the membership agreement, the rights by membership. Maybe then you'll understand.
OK I have read or scanned the documents.  And.. most of this is boiler plate legal language for creating a membership organization.  This stuff always sounds harsh.

Which parts make this evil? Because I just see a standard set of documents for an organization.  

It would require the Dev team to discuss process and reasons for breaking a feature lock phase or for a version breaking backward compatibility.  In reality this is pretty much how a company works and usually the people considered the experts run their areas unless they start breaking others work etc.  

It seams to me that some are looking at the formal structure and assuming this means the Devs will not be the creative force anymore is jumping to major conclusions.  The first time the Board started vetoing important design initiatives to say "keep it from competing with a Miro product" would be the time resign.

If this is all about an official chain of command existing without having tried out the real-world practice.. than it is a shame.

Why not see how it works first.  I assume Robert Castley wasn't helping build an evil empire when he was working on the foundation.

If I thought about what could happen in a car by design rather than how it normally works I would never get in.  I am strapped into a glass and metal vehicle with a 20 gallon tank of flammable fuel sloshing around, and it is the honor system that we all stay in our lanes at 60 MPH... That is a really scary design.
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by jgobiz » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:25 am

xperis wrote: PLEASE talk.. I think there is a solution that would keep Mambo whole. 
Now, we are three. But it has strong need for more community members, to set both parties under fire!

“We have a philosophy that by being transparent about our aims, the Open Source movement will understand the benefit of improved organization and strategic muscle behind Mambo projects.”

Don´t know? Have a look: http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/8/emw270261.htm

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by WillieManillie » Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:41 am

I think I will stick with this team.  Why change a tune if you can't tuna fish.  If something ain't broke, don't fix it.  Keep the name Mambo somewhere in the final name.  It has recognition and should be slightly modified.
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by jgobiz » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:52 am

WillieManillie wrote: I think I will stick with this team.  Why change a tune if you can't tuna fish.  If something ain't broke, don't fix it.  Keep the name Mambo somewhere in the final name.  It has recognition and should be slightly modified.
Arround 20 people ( +2.000 if you add OSM) out of arround 1.000.000 (3.000.000 downloads) did a break and these 1.000.000 are not lemmings; so nothing is broken! But the 20 have to been set "under fire"; that´s my suggestion.

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by masterchief » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:14 am

Joe I'm sorry to hear you want to go.  I particularly appreciated how seriously you have taken testing releases etc for us in the past, and for your help generally within the project.  I also appreciate the "wake up calls" you give me personally.

I whole hearty agree with your comments about this being a time when we can sit down and think about better structures and providing better communication to para-team members and the community in general.  I am doing that and the team is doing it.  I certainly want to explore how we can add more people without significantly adding to the overhead of managing them and reduce the efficiency of the project as a whole.

On the matters of what's occurred over the last week I'm afraid I still can't say much at this time.  Until such time as I can I guess you'll just have to trust that we acted in the most appropriate manner given the situation we were put in.
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by ex-mamber » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:37 am

Thanks Andrew, much apprecitaed.
(I'm still around, but watching and waiting .. as long as possible).

Thanks Saka, Jean Marie, Michelle, all others too, obviously.
Makes it hard to leave..

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by Tonie » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:54 am

Eyesberg,

you always have a very clear and unique view and are trying to advance the project. I personally agree with a lot of your views regarding communication and the project. I know you are thinking about leaving, but considering all the work and energy you have spent on the forums, that will be very hard to do. I personally hope that you will stay, maybe even accept a role on the core/whatever name team to try and work on creating an even better OSM and community. I think you would have a lot of support from the community/ development team.

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by xperis » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:21 pm

WillieManillie wrote: I think I will stick with this team.  Why change a tune if you can't tuna fish.  If something ain't broke, don't fix it.  Keep the name Mambo somewhere in the final name.  It has recognition and should be slightly modified.
If it ain't broke don't fix it.  Hmmm that would have kept two brothers who fixed bycles from trying to fly.  It would mean very few pieces of software would go past version 1.0.

There is a good chance Miro will own the Mambo name.  Then once they own it they can keep it or transfer it to the foundation.  IF another product in their industry includes it in their name, they can sue.  (Much like Apple has started doing to business selling iPod stuff that use IPod in thier name)

So if the new name had Mambo in it the only way the it would stay is if the Foundation isn't an evil power grab.  But then again how would we have reacted if someone started a project called coolerMambo and used Mambo's code to get a running start?

For anyone happy that Mambo has started getting serious recognition... That belongs to the other Fork.  To most of the world this is just more opensource wars between personalities.  Part of planning to go ahead is looking at this from the outside, not as a true believer.  To the world the devs left the project.
not the other way around.  This fork may never reach the same level of recognition Mambo had before.
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by BlackStar » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:37 pm

Saka wrote: Eyezberg, I would hate to see you go so I ask you to please reconsider.

You have made some valid points but you should also understand that things have not been easy for us either. We laid much hope in recent reorganizations but it just led to where we stand today.
Now we need to organize again but I am sure we will get things right this time. So please bear with us and stick around. You are very valuable community member and your work has been appreciated.
Saka,

I believe that the Core Team has the obligation to dispatch a message to people like eyzeberg and explain what happened.
It is very sad to see a person who worked hard to complain for the lack of proper communication. He is right (despite that he is a little impatient considering 4.5.3 release).
If you and the core team want to be trully democratic please send an explanatory message to the people who were and are complementing your team.
Please do it or we will see more of the chosen ones to go.... And the community needs them.

My words are rationally and not sentimentally influenced.
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by jgobiz » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:53 pm

BlackStar wrote:
Saka wrote: Eyezberg, I would hate to see you go so I ask you to please reconsider.
I believe that the Core Team has the obligation to dispatch a message to people like eyzeberg and explain what happened.
One more Vote for eyezberg!

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by burner » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:15 pm

Take care & hope to see you back once things settle down. You will be missed big time!!!
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by keliix06 » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:48 pm

BlackStar wrote:
Saka wrote: Eyezberg, I would hate to see you go so I ask you to please reconsider.

You have made some valid points but you should also understand that things have not been easy for us either. We laid much hope in recent reorganizations but it just led to where we stand today.
Now we need to organize again but I am sure we will get things right this time. So please bear with us and stick around. You are very valuable community member and your work has been appreciated.
Saka,

I believe that the Core Team has the obligation to dispatch a message to people like eyzeberg and explain what happened.
The core team has said from the very first moment that will make such a statement, people need to have patience. This isn't a democracy. There is absolutely no reason that the core team should involve us in everything they deal with, that's the reason for having a core team.

At this point, absolutely nothing is different other than the forum you visit. You are still using the exact same version of Mambo you would have been using all along.
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by jgobiz » Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:16 am

keliix06 wrote: At this point, absolutely nothing is different other than the forum you visit. You are still using the exact same version of Mambo you would have been using all along.
If nothing is different, why should we "bear with"? Did i misunderstood something in the past? I agree with your "This isn´t a democracy" and i agree with "there is no reason to involve everyone in everything". But, please remember, like on the frist page, "it is about freedom". So everyone can ask questions. And everyone can do so in the future. And everyone, not very probable but maybe, can ask questions that are "not welcome" for someone. And, cause in your words, "it is not democracy", someone can push everyone out here.

I bear with the devTeam, because they gave me absolutly no reason for suspiciousness. That´s no "advance payment" of mine. Only "Tit for Tat". My opinion is, that the devTeam surely knew, that a well-bred dog hunts by nature.  ;)

Just as you, i´m not an "authorized devTeam speaker". So please don´t be so "instructive". Let people tell their point of views and let them ask their questions  ;D

Best regards,

Joern

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by Slixter » Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:34 am

eyezberg, later dude hope to see ya soon  8)

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by BlackStar » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:58 am

The core team has said from the very first moment that will make such a statement, people need to have patience. This isn't a democracy. There is absolutely no reason that the core team should involve us in everything they deal with, that's the reason for having a core team.

At this point, absolutely nothing is different other than the forum you visit. You are still using the exact same version of Mambo you would have been using all along.
I haven't asked something for the whole of the community, I've asked something that has to do with the members of the core team that have contributed (and will contribute also). I'm pretty aware of the statetement and willing to be patient (I haven't sent a single post asking for explanations in this forum, instead of that I've asked from the community to be patient also!).
Considering the word "democracy", we can study the democratic systems and check the sentence "the people have the right to know the truth".
I don't see a reason for the dev team not to be democratic after all.
I've stated for an obligation that is pretty obvious and concerns the team's member like eyezeberg, the dev's should be aware of that and should act properly.
That's all

End of story
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by evolutionone » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:53 am

Your name is attatched to knowledge everywhere, and we're all sucking it up and loving it.


u could barely know us or so many of the people you've helped as theres been so many.

Its amazing when you read through all of this, and spend so much time in the mambo community, learning, finding, interacting...

Your name is everywhere attatched to knowledge,

You deserve your life, and to get your well founded views further into the team, to the advancement of the project

I hope you find a way of continuing to work with them,

cant imagine what it must be like to pump out as much time and knowledge as you do to the open world,

we're just 3 more voices who thrive on your contributions, that say thankyou, stay,

but whatever you do, know that you are changing the world, and helping people change their lives.

looking above the waterline for the eyesberg

peace,

tim, sam, nat,

evolutionone

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by MadeMyDay » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:42 am

Hey Joe,

It would be sad if you leave. Your points are again carefully worded and your work to this community is immense.

Take a break, lay back and watch the development. It´s not only you who is dying to see what happens next...

Merci beaucoup pour ton dépense de travail

Marc

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by WillieManillie » Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:07 pm

jgobiz wrote:
keliix06 wrote: At this point, absolutely nothing is different other than the forum you visit. You are still using the exact same version of Mambo you would have been using all along.
If nothing is different, why should we "bear with"? Did i misunderstood something in the past? I agree with your "This isn´t a democracy" and i agree with "there is no reason to involve everyone in everything". But, please remember, like on the frist page, "it is about freedom". So everyone can ask questions. And everyone can do so in the future. And everyone, not very probable but maybe, can ask questions that are "not welcome" for someone. And, cause in your words, "it is not democracy", someone can push everyone out here.

I bear with the devTeam, because they gave me absolutly no reason for suspiciousness. That´s no "advance payment" of mine. Only "Tit for Tat". My opinion is, that the devTeam surely knew, that a well-bred dog hunts by nature.  ;)

Just as you, i´m not an "authorized devTeam speaker". So please don´t be so "instructive". Let people tell their point of views and let them ask their questions  ;D

Best regards,

Joern
Maybe it's just me, but is there way too much emphasis and "tit-for-tat," as quoted, occurring here.  What's done-is-done.  If there is a disagreement with either this community or the other then join whomever team one is on.

Put this whole experience behind.  One thing that is for certain, politics, religion, and philosophy has nothing to do with source code, name sakes, and the future directions. 

Let those that need a break take a break.  Let those who are proactive move ahead and get on with v4.5.3x.x.  If that is not a solution, then the turn in the fork maybe in the wrong way and taking the other route is formidably the direction to go for one's satisfaction.

I look forward to the next version release.  Call it Mambo, Bambo, or Rambo.  Just move on.  It is black-and-white.  In between the lines is a waste.

Over-and-out.
Steve Douglas
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by jgobiz » Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:19 pm

WillieManillie wrote: Maybe it's just me, but is there way too much emphasis and "tit-for-tat," as quoted, occurring here. 
Thank you WillieManillie, i´m back on earth ;)

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by WillieManillie » Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:38 pm

Your welcome!  The development team is commendably deserving of Mambo's reputation and quality.  My site is all Mambo and has given my business qualified clients and business.  Things shakeout.  Change the project name.  Your reputation will work itself out via word-of-mouth and reputation. 

God's speed....
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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by walb » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:18 pm

Hi Eyez (Joe),

I just want to say, it makes me sad to see you leave the community, whatever camp it is. I also dislike what happened and it also slowed down my activities on the fora.

I have seen how you helped people within the community and I'll respect you for that.
You helped out on various fora in a lot of languages and always respectful and/or witty.

I thank you for that.

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by de » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:27 pm

Good news... I thought I post it here to see fewer sad people: :P
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/index.php?topic=1633

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by emagin » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:03 pm

The link above should be
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php?topic=1633

(Hey, sorry, I like reading history! This seems like sooo long ago!)

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Re: Why I'm leaving (eyezberg)

Post by Wendy » Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:57 am

This thread is now very old, and locked permanently.
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