After waiting days...

StupidIS
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After waiting days...

Post by StupidIS » Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:30 am

...eager to hear the new name of a software I greatly admire (which despite minor flaws I believe to be created by some amazingly bright people whom I greatly admire) I was stunned at what was finally chosen.  WTF is a "Joomla!" and what drug do you have to be on to decide this is a good global brand name for a software project?

I hate to tell everyone that the Emperor's clothes ain't there kids, but the "Joomla!" decision has got to be one of the stupidest things I've seen in a long time.  I can't believe anyone with any degree of common sense would look at that option for a name and think it decent.  It sounds like a 2-year old trying to pronounce the family cat's name...

Now, let's see how long this message lasts before mods delete in 5, 4, 3, 2....
Last edited by StupidIS on Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by rcarver » Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:48 am

Actually, I'd be more surprised if it DID get deleted.  The whole concept around joomla would be moot if it happened:)

You are entitled to your opinion.  Personally, I didn't like it at first, but its growing on me.  Then again, who name a content management system after a dance step?  When I first heard of mambo I was wondering if I was going to have to jump through hoops and dance around to get it installed :)  And did you ever see what the critics said about the name of a certain operating system (ok, so some of them are still saying it, me included) that now occupies space (much more than necessary ;) ) on more than 90% of the hard drives on PC's out there?

If the software works well, I don't care what its called...  well almost....

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by Andrew Smith » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:12 am

I too was wondering how on earth they could come up with something like that.  It just didn't make sense to me.  I'd almost rather be saying "Mambo" than "Joomla" to the business world ... give or take how you actually pronounce the thing.

I kinda hoped for something better.

But I do recognise that the name has to work in languages other than English, and that this may well be a culturally appropriate foundation that will take us much further (in terms of world wide reach) than the term Mambo ever would.

Ultimately, the name will take on meaning according to what we make of it.  This was most probably the case for Mambo in the beginning.

In the meantime I'm still wondering "What in earth ......"

Andrew

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by Elpie » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:14 am

StupidIS wrote: ...eager to hear the new name of a software I greatly admire (which despite minor flaws I believe to be created by some amazingly bright people whom I greatly admire) I was stunned at what was finally chosen. 
Well, I guess that as this is your first (and so far, only) post in this forum, you can be forgiven for not appreciating the spirit of cameraderie, tolerance, and politeness which pervades this community.  Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, but we are not going to get anywhere unless we all agree to keep criticism constructive.  Whether you like the name or not, is irrelevant.  I don't like it myself, but I certainly respect the time and effort put into choosing a new name.  With over 3,000 people here, there was no way that one name was going to please everyone.
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Re: After waiting days...

Post by Elpie » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:16 am

Andrew Smith wrote: In the meantime I'm still wondering "What in earth ......"
Bet they said that about Google too - and now that is in such common usage its even making it into dictionaries.  ;D
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Even a rose would smell .. whatever..

Post by pwheat » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:49 am

Hey, enough of this name dropping.
I'm more concerned that there's been such a division of talent and that the "Mambo" crowd doesn't want to dance with the "Joomla" crowd. Heck, call it TTITPB (The Turd In the Punch Bowl) if you want ... I need this CMS to survive and grow.

Hey, it really isn't a baby... it's a CMS that some of us use to grow our business. My customers don't care what the "name" is -- they want it to work, be secure, be EASY TO USE (which is why I Mambo'd in the first place) and to be under budget for their project whatever it is.

Mambo aka Joomla is the best I've used from all aspects of web development.

Hey, let's get together and make it better!!

(For the record, I hate Joomla as a name. But again, it really does not matter. Focus on the destination and the path, not the name of the street!)

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by Billiken » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:59 am

Got to admit.. while I have every intention of using Joomla.. I really don't like the name.  

Google was a better name choice because it was easy to remember and easy to spell.. you almost instictively knew how to spell it and it stuck in your head.

When it came to Joomla.. I had to come back to opensourcematters.com this evening to find out how to spell it after being away from the computer since just after the name was announced..  It's just not memorable.  Whatever the word means.. has no bearing to me.  Its being able to recognize and instantly know how to find the product your looking for without question as to how its spelled or even pronounced.  When I try to explain to my clients what Joomla is.. its going to be a lot less that they'll get a grip around it.

For web geeks its fine.. but for my average clients its not going to stick.  My clients are small business owners who have no clue about the web beyond that they know they need to have a site for their business.  When I go in praising Joomla, it'll go in one ear and out the other.

Multiculturalism aside.. it just doesn't have that snap that a brand name shood have.

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by masterchief » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:11 am

StupidIS, we aren't going to delete your post or anyone that disagree's with the choice in name.

I must say it's been a very hard journey and the final selection actually has quite a story to it and it was based on solid advice from top industry professionals.

At the end of the day it's not so much that the name makes the product, but the product, the Dev Team, the community will make the name just as they did for Mambo, or Google, or eBay or any number of those "What's a ..." names.

Hehe, anyway, I'm just glad we have it and can safely let it out of the bag.  BUT, there is a 50 cent fine and tin beside the BBQ for anyone who accidentally says the M-word when they mean Joomla!  I better check my wallet has change...
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Re: After waiting days...

Post by strawberries » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:15 am

names always take time to grow on people.

But if I'm being honest, I have to say that I was a wee bit disappointed when I came across the new name (after watching the countdown for days on the homepage here)

It's maybe just me, but I've never taken at all to product or company names beginning with the letter J.  'Java' is one that springs to mind.

I'm not sure why we had to have a rush to get this new name out so soon.  OK, I know that witthe split it made sense to quickly make a distinction.  But surely an interim temporary name could have been deployed in the meantime, while we thought out a new final name.

Joomla doesn't do it for me at all. I think the name is a mistake.  Just my opinion.

PS - I would like to add that this is a great community.  I am glad that the split has taken place.  The core development team have my full support.  Well done people. 

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by cdkaminsky » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:38 am

Google is just a play on
googol = the figure 1 followed by 100 zeroes equal to 10 to the 100th power
googolplex = 1 followed by a googol of zeroes equal to 10 to the googol power

Googleplex is their headquarters....

So they had some help...and using the gooooooooogle at the bottom is cool because it plays off the meaning....They did not really have to BRAND a name from the ground up in my opinion.

Now Yahoo! and Ebay.....have done awesome jobs at this.......Joomla has so much potential...only problem is people spelling it Jumla (you might consider get  jumla* *jumla for your name and forwarding to your Joomla site). 

The name draws questions... You are going to get -- What the hell is Joomla or a Joomla...and the Branding can set in....Explain its WorldWide popularity, etc...

Again just my opinions

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by thethepapapa » Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:55 am

I too am non-plused by the name.
Saw one guy's tag line, stupid name, serious CMS...that made more sense to me. 

I pray branding pulls this one out of the bowl.

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by TheSaint » Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:58 am

Not a big fan of the name, sounds kinda goofy to me. None the less, let's hope the quality sells the product not the title.
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Re: After waiting days...

Post by Toontje » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:46 am

cdkaminsky wrote: only problem is people spelling it Jumla (you might consider get  jumla* *jumla for your name and forwarding to your Joomla site). 
That's why jumla.com, net and org are registerd by Brad from the Core Team already ;)
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Re: After waiting days...

Post by brian » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:47 am

on behalf of the core team
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Re: After waiting days...

Post by spinfx » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:33 am

pwheat wrote:
(For the record, I hate Joomla as a name. But again, it really does not matter. Focus on the destination and the path, not the name of the street!)
Billiken wrote:

Multiculturalism aside.. it just doesn't have that snap that a brand name shood have.

While I have enjoyed the Open Source approach to the logo design (a little bit of this logo with a little bit of that, and then tweek this a bit etc . . . ) I too have some difficulty with the name and echo the thoughts above.

I work in a PR/Marketing environment and those I have shown the name to have a similar difficulty, and that is how to pronounce it, much less how to remember it.

It has been tricky (yet rewarding) to get my Corporate Executive body to accept an Open Source CMS solution in the first place with some of them hesitant in uttering the "M" word for fear of sounding a little silly (not so my group, who embraced the whole concept). So to expect the decision-makers of large companies and big government agencies to struggle with the word Joomla is, I think, pushing it a bit.

The choice of a name that has a real marketing ring to it could have seen the "CMS previously known as m*mbo" be accepted within such large organisations much sooner than I expect it will be now.

If we only want the "Joomla!" CMS to be adopted for small to medium sized websites that are frequently community based, then fine. But if we want a CMS that will rival anything that's available commercially, be a flagship for the concept of open source and which company directors can comfortably recommend to other directors without feeling silly, we need to avoid taking them out of their comfort zone.

While directors in Indonesia, South Africa and India might have no problem with the word, what does it mean to the English-speaking community or the French-speaking community, or indeed to the largest growing economy in the world, the Chinese-speaking community? 

Laudible though it is for the name to have some deep all embracing community meaning, a word like Google or eBay that has no meaning but sounds and looks good, would, I believe, have been far more effective. Why do you think Miro were reluctant to relinquish the m*mbo name? - because it rings and sings and dances - that's why.

Having said that, I will of course still use the product but I am thankful that the name hadn't changed *before* I had to present to our Executives.

spinFX

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by Matrixguru » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:48 am

;D

ok ok ok ...so its different its unique no common meaning once everone gets used to it...it will grow unique branding..clean slate to start with so to say
not like mambo which was confusing to customers at best they thought I was talking about dancing .... my only question about the name is what is the correct way to pronounce it...seeing this is going global ??

8)

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by manuman » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:00 am

This thread is a good read with a lot of thoughtful debate which is good and welcome.

In interesting point to note comes via spinfx, who got a negative reaction from within a PR/Marketing  environment. Interesting because... the final descision on the name Joomla was made with the assistance of a world class PR/Marketing firm.

My point here is that we will get very different opinions (none of which are wrong) from people equally skilled in branding, because the name is subjective.

Joomla!(the program itself) is objective and it is on objectively judging Joomla! (the program) that the success will be built. With that success will come brand awareness and name recognition. We are currently taking the first step in a marathon and it won't be long before we pull ahead of the crowd.

When that happens Joomla! will be a name we'll all be proud to present to any CEO or board.
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Re: After waiting days...

Post by Elpie » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:08 am

Shayne, with all due respect to the core team and the PR company, what was the basis of the brief they were given?  Marketing targets different markets, so I am just curious as to how the market was defined.  I tend to agree with spinfx, and think it is a brilliant name if the target was community-oriented sites, but I have the same difficulties as some of the others when I think of trying to get the business/corporate market to take up the concept of Joomla!
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Re: After waiting days...

Post by spinfx » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:15 am

Hi manuman - how's the weather in Albany? Still cold here in Perth.

I appreciate that it is subjective - it always will be - but with the reluctance there is from IT sections within these big organisations to allow us in the PR section to contemplate using OS, we need all the help we can get.

I truly hope that Joomla! will become the Google of CMS and only time will tell. But these decision-makers are so incredibly conservative in their outlook that it takes a Director with some foresight and a lot of bravdo to help break that barrier.

IT sections are so infiltrated by Micro$oft that not only do they see themselves loosing the battle for control, but they realise they don't have the skill sets to manage and organisation's IT needs in a truly OS environment. The politics is unbelievable.

So I guess that was the point I was trying to make - that directors *are* influenced by such superficial things as the name, particularly when the Micro$oft centric IT people will do all they can to pour scorn on the OS product.

Even the change of name and the forking of the CMS caused ripples within our organisation and had I not been able to act quickly by apraising my Director of the situation, there would undoubtedly been mumblings of "I told you so" from the IT section.

Just wanted to put forward some lively and reasoned debate.

BTW, which PR/Marketing firm was that?

spinFX

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by brian » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:26 am

You are correct. Getting any name to be recognised is a big task. I'm sure that all brand name companies face this sort of decision on a daily basis.

Marketing/Brand and product are two wheels on a bicycle. The challenge is to ensure that no wheel is bigger than the other. Look what happend to the penny farthing bicycle

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by spinfx » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:50 am

Elpie wrote: Shayne, with all due respect to the core team and the PR company, what was the basis of the brief they were given?  Marketing targets different markets, so I am just curious as to how the market was defined.  I tend to agree with spinfx, and think it is a brilliant name if the target was community-oriented sites, but I have the same difficulties as some of the others when I think of trying to get the business/corporate market to take up the concept of Joomla!
Brian

Having to deal with these sorts of people on an everyday basis really sharpens your senses to what works and what doesn't work.

Elpie's question is a *very* relevant one - if the brief was not clear about the target audience, or indeed the target audience was too restricted, then the result will reflect that. And with the greatest respect to the core dev team whose knowledge of code and all that that brings, far outstrips mine, I have been in this business for more than 35 years, so I do know what I'm talking about and certainly know about presenting and taking briefs.

Getting the name right is not about being clever or flash, or about being deep and meaningful, it's about being able to empathise with your target audience - and our target audience should be the world, because this product has the potential to be a truly world-beating product. But that will only happen when you can break into those markets that have previously been riddled by proprietry solutions. I for one am doing all I can to promote OS solutions within government and believe me, it's an uphill struggle!

Anyway, I'm off home now to relax with a nice glass or two of Margaret River Shiraz (Margaret River being the premiere wine-region of Western Australia - if not the whole of Australia).

Cheers and have a great night and an enjoyable weekend.

spinFX  ;) 

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by tarsiux » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:22 am

Joomla! sounds unique. There's none like it before.

Give it some months and it will become a byword.

By the way, are we expecting also to have JoomlaForge?  ;D

I can't help thinking of a bonfire with tribesmen around it, dancing and chanting
Joomla! Joomla! Joomla! Looks like one hapless catch will gonna be roasted
alive soon... Whoa, what morbid thoughts...  ???

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by manuman » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:44 am

Elpie... I'm sorry but the exact brief I don't know, others in the team looked after that. Spinfx, can't answer your last question either, again I was looking after other matters. I'm looking rather stupid now  :-\

In regards to business customers, I can say something with a large degree of authority. This comes from personal experience which includes 16 years in sales in Sydney.

Prior to moving closer to Antarctica, I was with Gateway (the US Hardware vendor) in B2B sales... now I ask what were the first Fortune 500 companies thinking when they initially brought server's and workstations from a company that was unknown... called Gateway... had Cowhide packaging and a comical Cow as the mascot/logo.(Incidentally such companies did and with in the first two years of the companies existence).

Answer... not much because in IT more than almost any other corporate division... name (as in the actual words) is less than 1% of the decision making process, if that. What matters is the ability of a product to fill a requirement better and with less risk than any other. Thats what we will make of Joomla... a great product.

Prior to Gateway I was with Virgin ... now theres a name that would seem unsuited to B2B, yet it has divisions that do just that. Very well.

My main point is that from a commercial perspective I think its not going to be a problem at all. I'll be selling Joomla to business's all over Australia and New Zealand, big and small... and I have absolutely no apprehension about the name at all.

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by lester » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:47 am

brian wrote: Marketing/Brand and product are two wheels on a bicycle. The challenge is to ensure that no wheel is bigger than the other. Look what happend to the penny farthing bicycle
Sorry to go off-topic but in case you wanted to " Look what happend to the penny farthing bicycle" in the 21st century - it's called the Q-bike:

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by guider » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:17 pm

It sounds like a 2-year old trying to pronounce the family cat's name...
Lol. I'm not a big fan of it either but upon picking any name some people will be disappointed. Could you come up with anything better that is not trademarked or already is familiar? Please post it as I'm curious how it compares.

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by Triplicate » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:47 pm

Joombla is a poor choice! How on earth did that ever happen?

I don't even remember ever seeing it come up in any of the NAME topics leading up to the decision and if it did I'm sure no one would have said they liked it.

This clearly was NOT a community choice!

Good grief... I can't remember this name for obvious reasons and I have no idea how to pronounce it!

This must have been the same marketing team/group/person or mindset as the marketing folks that came up with "BOB" for the Microsoft desktop interface. If you don't remember BOB, then you already know how successful it was. Microsoft lost ton's of money on that marketing blunder.

This too is a blunder IMHO and it's already beyond repair.

I'm disappointed. You had a lot of good ideas in the forum and you ignored them. Yes there was a lot of crap there too but this name choice was clearly not a community effort.

Google and Joomla have nothing in common as has been suggested by some. Everyone can easily remember and pronounce Google with little to effort what so ever.
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Re: After waiting days...

Post by farimi » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:01 pm

Joomla...

I mistype it dozens of time today while posting to the forum. Well after a while, the words start to make sense to me. Yeah why not type  J O O M L A !  ?  as i look at my qwerty keyboard incidentally, the letter J O O M L is on the right and only the A on the left. Suddenly, it is too easy to remember. Get it?

As it might seem arkward to pronounce joomla! or to type it or to present it in front of your board directors, it is a brand. And as history shows, brands that are unique are much more easier to remember and sell.

Sure, who like the sound pronounced at first. But give it time. I mean, this is opensource. give it an open mind.
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Re: After waiting days...

Post by thethepapapa » Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:20 pm

Need I remind folks that Coke also had a world class PR/Marketing firm for New coke? Recall how Coke had a little problem when customers rebelled? It took years to build an identity.  It took years to rebuild the faith of the end users.

This whole fork may be a great step forward for the development team, and for the freedom of the code, but its a big step backwards in public acceptance. No different than the slaves freed from pharoah's rule...there is going to be a period of wandering the desert until the new name finds its promised land.

Name awareness, building recgonition is going to take time.  The project may be free, but, there was a price to be paid in public awareness.  Joomla may require the crutch...the system used to be known as, or the prject split from...just to get folks to recognize somthing that was vauguely familiar.

I ask, did the PR firm employ a survey or a focus group? Anyone sit behind the one way glass and listen to the reaction of actual and potential customers? Or was it a new coke kind of situation...Yes, a complete new product while taking the old one off the shelf...that's brilliant!

For what its worth, I own a PR/Marketing company (albeit a small one) and I offered up a whack of potential names (and it don't matter a whit that mine were not considered).

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by Matrixguru » Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:25 pm

Triplicate wrote: Joombla is a poor choice! How on earth did that ever happen?

This must have been the same marketing team/group/person or mindset as the marketing folks that came up with "BOB" for the Microsoft desktop interface. If you don't remember BOB, then you already know how successful it was. Microsoft lost ton's of money on that marketing blunder.

Hey I liked Bob !  He was ahead of His Time... :P

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Re: After waiting days...

Post by Tonie » Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:29 pm

It was made clear from the beginning that the developer team would choose the name of the new CMS, even though thinking up new names was encouraged. The logo is going to be from the community.


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