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Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:10 pm
by pmills
well... they sell ice cream at the video rental store...

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:34 am
by patric
pmills wrote:
In Estonian (vikings came from the baltics and scandinavia) a "Joomla" is a place where people go to get very very drunk!

The estonian Mambo community http://www.joomlaest.com/ must be laughing very loudly!
OK! But we have proverb:

The name is't ruin man!

And anybody no laughing, just the name Joomla! little strange chime in estonian. ;)

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:12 am
by danboarder
Joomla! is wierd, I admit it... but then again "Google" was wierder when I first heard it... so was "Yahoo!" ... not very PRO!

Then there is Flikr and Mozilla and Ubuntu and Xanga and so many others... I don't hear people complaining about those projects.

I guess people will just have to get used to it. Words like CocaCola and Pepsi are not silly only because we are used to them... give it some time.

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:28 am
by MarkRan
iainshaw wrote: marketing isn't a science, never has been, never will be. 
I've been a marketing executive in high tech for about twenty years now and I can say that marketing IS a science... partly. And it's partly art. Marketing is actually the collision of the two. This is what makes it so interesting... and hard.

I've named a lot of pretty darn famous tech products (famous enough to covered in Time, Newsweek, the cover of PC Magazine, etc). It's always hard and no matter the process (including hiring a naming consultancy like NameLab) the people working on the new name for something invariably get what I call "name fatigue". This happens when you brainstorm and evaluate too many different names, too intensely over too long a period of time. It's a bit like that thing that happens when you repeat any common useage word over and over for a while. It starts sounding like it's not a word. Name fatigue works the other way. After you get name fatigue, a lot of names start sounding good that might not have sounded good before the fatigue set in. It's like being over-analytical for too long. Your basic "first impression" gut reaction instinct starts to get dulled.

There are also other factors. Usually everyone's top two or three favorites gets axed in the "trademark/domain/language" elimination gauntlet. So the ones you were initially passionate for are already off the plate. Then there's the committee factor. Of the choices remaining, the committee dynamic of debate and compromise usually ends up eliminating every #1 choice off of everyone's list because no one can agree on them. So the decision often ends up grouped around different third/fourth level choices on everyone's lists. So it's hard.

My professional opinion?  Joomla is not a good name for this project, at least in English-language countries (I can't evaluate other languages). However, my professional opinion is also that the team should NOT change the name again. That would send a poor message and cause an enormous amount of confusion. What's done is done.  A good product can overcome a weak name and the world's best name won't make a bad product succeed. The name is more like having a tailwind helping you or a headwind to overcome. The name is usually not the most significant factor in determining ultimate success.

So, long live "Joomla".

Now I would like to talk about that exclamation point. I'd like to make a suggestion to the team. Lose the exclamation point. If that's not possible then there is actually a fairly good middle ground. Most marketing guidlines have a "style guide" for the usage of trademarks and logos. I've been involved in projects which had an exclamation point at the end of the name. In the style guide we specified that the exclamation point would only appear with the name in the actual logo (the logo includes colors and typeface). When used in copy it would appear without the exclamation point, like this "Joomla". This a very good idea because it helps make text more readable and also encourages conversational use of the term. Most importantly, many publications (including many magazines, newspapers, textbooks) will not print your exclamation point anyway because it breaks *their* style guide for body copy. So if you keep it for body copy your best case outcome will be that the usage will be inconsistent. Eliminating it for body copy will mean that each time it appears in text it will be consistent and contribute to building a cohesive brand identity. I know it sounds like a silly detail and us marketing folk worry about this stuff and it does matter.

My $.02

--- Mark

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:36 am
by bluesaze
Nice read ........ about the Exclamation ...... yep we should use it only for the logo .. ;) ..... I like Joomla for what it means ...... Donno about marketing much  :)

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:57 am
by sikumbang
theres a word in  my languange (indonesian) that seems alike joomla : jomlo ... and its means lonesome guy ..  :D
but  Shakespeare said  'what is in a name' ...
so .. go ahead Joomla! :)

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:43 pm
by damo
i havent even bothered to read the threads just voted. which was a no by the way ...

but i'm not surprised to see that the majority don't like it. i am surprised that more thought didn't go into it ...

but like i said on a post a while ago, it's not the name its the cms that counts. even if the name stinks

and what is the ! for?

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:15 pm
by CKH
guider wrote: Please cast in your vote!
From my perspective it was hard to sell "mambo" to clients who do not know and just look at the name, with "joomla!" it will be even harder... :-\ nevertheless I am gonna stay with it... by the way... personally i like it... :)

CKH

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:10 am
by ledzep
IMHO

Of all the owners of websites in my portfolio - http://websdezined.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=23 (they're not brilliant but ok), not one client knows the name Mambo or will know the name Joomla!.  They don't need to, they rely on the demo I gave/give to them, my integrity to do a reasonable job and provide good post implementation support.

Shakespeare got it right!

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:58 pm
by holycow
that is an excellent point.

we pulled in some clients for a pizza and beer dealie and did an informal test on the name.

giggles all around. 

what we have decided to do is permanently fork the codebase tangentially the way ubuntu freezes the codebase of debian every 6 months, and rebrand it internally.

i think the above post about not having another name change is correct.  the name sucks but changing it again is fruitless.  if anyone wants to, they can do a rebrand as we are doing so in the end everyone is happy.

i think this is an excellent example of open source at work and an example of where it truly shines - where humans disagree.

sometimes it amazes me at how well the GPL works. 

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:45 am
by oMama
IMHO... I really like the name.  I am new to the world of $ambo, and I admit when I first heard "Mambo" I thought... ok, must be some funky group of people working on that!  Looking around at all of the 3rd party dev groups, there are some strange brands out there as well.  But when you consider all of the branding and slogans that cross your desk on a daily basis... Joomla! is really unique, and it is a word that will let itself build its own reputation, its own connotations, make its own statement.

To those who think its silly... would you say that "Yahoo!" is a serious word?  Or maybe "Google" is actually to be taken more seriously?  What does Reebok mean anyway?  And Hummer! - in the US that has a definite shady *wink wink* meaning... All by themselves these words sound like silly ideas for a brand, but because they have the product upon which to place the brand... nobody really questions the name.  The brand is accepted as a powerful and unforgettable.

I think Joomla! required a few rounds across the lips before it feels normal, lol - but I think its a brilliant name.  People who find Joomla 1.0 as their first experience with this product will probably never give the name a second thought.

Cheers! ;D

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:22 pm
by madedog
Umm... I don't have the time to read the whole thing through, but I'm going to say this just once... to get your attention on it. For estonians, the name is a bit funny. The thing is... Joomla can be translated as "Drinkplace"... that is... a place where people drink :P That's how it's translated...

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:07 am
by dStorm
Firstly, thanks to Manuman, Troubadour, SpinFX, MarkRan and oMama for some informative posts.

Initially, I wasn't that impressed with the name, but 'Joomla' will grow on me (more so, as the mindshare of 'Mambo' diminishes).  I've studied Marketing and I believe its more art than science, or more bang than buck - and after reading this thread, I know I'm not the only one.  The name didn't spark fireworks when I first heard it, but its been chosen - lets keep it and make it what we want it to be.

A respectable slice of my job involves me marketing my company, the products I use, and even more importantly: my clients and their products.  As I'm making my pitch, I certainly won't be shying away from using the name 'Joomla'.  In the past I've received great reactions with 'Mambo' and recently, great results with 'Joomla' (surprised-surprise).

The first client I pitched 'Joomla' to is a fairly casual, small bordering on medium-size business.  I met with the Director and laid it out: quality and catchy design pinned to a cost-effective, and incredibly robust, open-source CMS, ...called 'Joomla'.  She smiled.  Her eyes glazed a little, then came back to me.  'Joom-what?'  'Joom-LAH, with an exclamation mark - like Yahoo!'.  Then we discussed the usuals for this type of business: what is open-source and what is a 'content management system'.  Then the meeting carried on as normal talking 'content', etc.  However, she held that grin until I left, but not before saying 'this Joomla-thing is impressive', after a brief demonstration.

What did I take from this meeting?  Well, asides from her business, I think the name lit her imagination on fire and, after clarification, really struck her as something memorable.  Something to keep in mind, no doubt.

The other client I've pitched 'Joomla' to operates nationally here in Australia, acting as an extension of an international company.  Obviously, I approached this job with a different pitch to the first... these are people who love talking the talk (and you thought my reference to 'mindshare' was bad in my second sentence!).  I'd been referred to them by a mutual friend, and had been told they knew about open-source and also about content management systems, so I went in with my design and project management skills up-front, and 'Joomla', as my edge (hoping no one else was pitching Mambo their way).  Being big business they were still cautious and fairly tight-lipped.  That is, of course, until I let 'Joomla' slip.  It was just the ice-breaker I needed... they loosened up with a swag of questions - and the name was similar enough to Google and Yahoo! (in their minds - without my prompting) for them to sell themselves on the idea.  This got me through to "round two: the demo", and we all know its easy-street from there.

Well, usually...  ;)

These are two examples, and your mileage may vary when pitching.  However, I've also mentioned to a few other clients that their Mambo systems will be upgraded to 'Joomla' soon.  No one has batted an eyelid - I've simply told them its a natural progression of the same great product (hopefully the Core Dev won't be too upset with this slight fudging of what took place).

Wrapping up: clients are much more forgiving than some of us might have expected (myself included).

Oh, and SpinFX - I sympathise with you.  I worked in IT for State Government (in one of the more Marketing-driven departments) for four years.  During my time there I researched and suggested several open-source strategies that could have saved hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Strangely, they almost always chose to put their trust in the highest bidder instead... some kind of "if it costs that much, it must be good" philosophy... I'll never understand.

So, back to the name: let's agree to disagree... and all go vote for TW's fish logo (hehe - sorry, couldn't resist) - I love that little fish (from the deep ocean..., fighting the upstream battle..., through rapids..., up waterfalls..., past grizzly bears..., to create lots of little... man. Discovery Channel has ruined me!).

Cheers, Adam (dStorm)

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:05 am
by dStorm
Did I kill this thread with my super-long post?

I'll try to be more succinct in the future...

;)

Let's write it off as the 'newbie -jitters'...

Cheers, Adam. (dStorm)

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:08 am
by bluesaze
Nice read (didnt read it fully LOL) ........ but everyones got over the name its history now ... so i guess no ones checks this thread anymore
dStorm wrote: Did I kill this thread with my super-long post?

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:18 am
by dStorm
bluesaze wrote:its history now
I feel the same.  Since my earlier post the name has definitely cemented.  I'm happy.  I hope everyone else is too.

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:23 am
by zoomer
at first, it was.. wtf?!?! but then my linux desktop is ubuntu (i call it 'ub' or 'you-bee' for short), so whatever floats your boat is fine by me. (although if anyone asks and they aren't a *nix person, i usually say 'debian' instead just to save wierd look i'm almost always gonna get).

i suppose i'm getting used to the new name.. but i keep thinking of 'zoomba' (commonly heard in the sims 2 as a response to a joke).  hmm.. zoomla.. zoomba.. zoombug... junebug... there ya go, and ya get a mascot for free.  :D

you can say "do you mambo?" but does "do you joomla?" make any sense? on the PLUS side, it'll be a whole lot easier to google for joomla-related sites than mambo ones.  8)

Re: Do you like "Joomla!" as new project name?

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:22 am
by manuman
manuman wrote: Well for those interested I have two presentations on Monday (tomorrow). One to a school and one to an automotive dealership. I will tell them its Joomla and we'll see what happens... I stand ready to either be laughed outta the office or seal myself a bit of income fo the next month.

I will report back what happens.
I was PM'd requesting an update so here it is...

School was a no go'er at this stage. More a case of wrong timing, the new year looks good like a better time.

The good news is that the automotive dealer went ahead and will infact be live on Monday. Additionaly a second automotive dealer and an employment agency are also going live in the next week (both on Joomla!).

So... what have I learnt?

None of them (not one!) had any sort of negative reaction to the Joomla! name. So the proof is there (and I'll list the sites in the appropriate forum once they are live). Joomla! shouldn't be an impeedment to selling your services, most customers couldn't care less what the name is, just as long as the system does what they need.

Cheers
Shayne