Why, why, why - Joomla

Post Reply
macern

Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by macern » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:32 pm

We have a saying here in Norway «Ikke bann i kirka» "do not swear in church".

But since I'm not religious, I'm going to swear in this "church", or criticize the new name for a nice product.

YES, I THINK Joomla! is a bad, stupid and, and, and name.

The so called "world class PR/Marketing firm" that has been involved in this name selection, can not have taken in consideration that we do not all speak English!
That this is a product and community that comes from almost every part of this world we live in.
World class PR firm or not, I would have kicked their sweet as.. out of the door bringing a name like this on the table!

Thinking of trying to marked a product with a name like this, to any type of a Norwegian company or organization, well, it makes me just want to give up now, and look elsewhere for a product with a much better name.

On joomla.org http://www.joomla.org/content/view/12/26/ I quote this:
This name was chosen from thousands of recommendations by the community, and even went through an arduous review session by branding and marketing professionals who also felt that Joomla! was the best choice of the lot.

I have looked trough these threads for a mention, or something that looks like this new, unspeakable name:

http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... 189.0.html
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... ,89.0.html
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... 272.0.html

Not finding anything that looks, or mentions anything that is close to the new name.
Except this: Joolie
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... ml#msg2064

And I also did a search for joomla and jumla last night (norwegian time) not long after the name was made public, and did not find any post with these 2 names from August 21st or earlier

And since both joomla.org and joomla.com was registered August 21st 2005 (Just do a whois searc, and you can see).
Also makes me think that the "core team" or the "World class PR firm" have come up with this name without any regards to all the ideas that have come from this community.

I was seriously understanding that this name selection would be a "community" decision, not only a "core" decision?
Was not this one of the big reasons "we all" came here from Mambo and Miro, to have a say in extremely important issues like this?

With all the "know how & brainpower" that this community have, it would not have taken much "work" from the "core" to have made available a community vote that would not have shown any results before a given date.

And especially since several members did do most of the work by collection, sorting and made most of the name suggestions available at this URL:
http://cmeister2.warwickcompsoc.co.uk/whois/index.php

So, please point me to the post, and honor the member that came up with this name or idea, since I do not seem to find it anywhere on this place.
And I also did a search for joomla and jumla last night (norwegian time) not long after the name was made public, and did not find any post with these 2 names from August 21st or earlier.

This community member have also written, and much better than I could, many of the issues I have with the new name:
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... l#msg25718

This new "name" does not have a nice sound in Norwegian, and I have also seen that other Scandinavian countries does not take very well to this name either.
So I can only think that this "world class PR firm" does not have much knowledge about non English speaking countries.

If I was only going to use J**mla for a personal site, I would not give a sh... about this name.
But since I have now, for the last 6 months working on going "commercial" with Mambo, this new name just makes me want to give it up, because the name, or the brand name is very important if you want to sell something to people who do not know anything about this.
And trying to sell this name in Norwegian, a name that for me, looks like no one in this community know how to pronounce, will not be easy, impossible.

Off course I can keep using Mambo, but what is Mambo with out it's 3DP contribution.
Just another CMS.
It's the 3DP that makes Mambo/J**mla so unique!

So can please the "core team" answer the community where this name came from?

And why was not the "community" involved in this decision?

Was this not one of the biggest arguments for the "community" to break from Mambo/Miro, that the community was not taken into consideration about important decisions like this?

Or is this issue just another "legal reason" so we can not say anything?


Sorry for my English, It's not my native language.

A very disappointed Mambo user regarding the new name J**mla.
And please, drop the "!" exclamation mark!!!!!!!!!!!!

User avatar
MystaMax
Joomla! Explorer
Joomla! Explorer
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:55 am
Location: Atlanta, GA USA
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by MystaMax » Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:08 pm

macern wrote: Thinking of trying to marked a product with a name like this, to any type of a Norwegian company or organization, well, it makes me just want to give up now, and look elsewhere for a product with a much better name.
hey good luck. I, myself would never let a product name dictate if i'm going to use it or not. thats just stupid, and I mean no disrepect.  I can't even put that into perspective. I hope (and am pretty sure) that your comments are just opinions.

To be honest, I thought it was weird myself. I thought, "what were they thinking?".  but, its only been a day since they released this.

i'm sure they took into account the people who were gonna dislike it, but I suppose that group of people were outnumbered.

If you were trying to make a point, you accomplished that. But, i dont think this was any where close to being the most appropiate way to do that.

User avatar
Tyndal
Joomla! Enthusiast
Joomla! Enthusiast
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:28 am
Location: Saxony - Germany
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by Tyndal » Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:12 pm

Hi macern,

i do understand that you are disappointed right now, but maybe this name will benefit you, too... you'll have to see.

As i said in some posts before:

- a decision about the name has to be done!
- someone had to make that decision!
- this community is tooooo large to choose a name without killing each other
- giving 20 names for voting to the community would lead to a registration-run of all those 20 names-domains in all TLDs within a few seconds, don't you think? So the core-devs would have to register all those domains before they give them out for voting.
- does your customers are close enough to the scene to know the difference between mambo, joomla, typo3, drupal and so on - does anyone is REALLY interested in how the cms is named? Do you have to use a name? Just say "i'll install you a cms..." "c m what???"... i think it's harder to explain what a CMS is and how it can be used than saying that name, isn't it?

If you are unhappy with that name: wouldn't you be allowed to build a "Norway-CMS" (name it like you want) - a fork out of Joomla - exactly the same code... that should be allowed, isn't it? So name it like you want for your special purposes. None of your customers will look into the sourcecode.

But something that makes me a bit unhappy: if it is right that the name was choosen at August 21th... why was there an announcement of "have accepted the offer of free advice from a world leading brand consultancy. We had found ourselves going around in circles with the caliber of names suggested but now we’re close." at August 26th ("now we're close" seems to me that no name was found until that point).

That's a bit confusing to me... maybe because of the TM, afraid that m1ro would catch that TM before the devs can?
Well, that's a point i'd like the team to answer - despite that i accept the name - the reasons i've mentioned above.

regards,

tyndal
-=This is my signature - nothing more - nothing less=-

Dragonfly
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:24 am

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by Dragonfly » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:18 pm

Joomla is a wonderful name... other names are too common....

And its really not the name but its rather what you get out of the name. Even if you have the best name but worse software  its useless. Of course the best cms deserve the best name but it will become the best name after few years. Just wait and watch...

User avatar
dorjano
Joomla! Explorer
Joomla! Explorer
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:26 am
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by dorjano » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm

Tyndal wrote: ...
- does your customers are close enough to the scene to know the difference between mambo, joomla, typo3, drupal and so on - does anyone is REALLY interested in how the cms is named? Do you have to use a name? Just say "i'll install you a cms..." "c m what???"... i think it's harder to explain what a CMS is and how it can be used than saying that name, isn't it?
...
tyndal

Now my friend find me a better name then Ferrari for a Ferrari. The names are important. And yes, the Ferrari brand was chosen befor the famouse car producer gain popularitiy I agree. But this is a short nice sounding easy to remember name wich joomla is not.
Moderator of Slovenian Forum

User avatar
iainshaw
Joomla! Explorer
Joomla! Explorer
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:32 am
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by iainshaw » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:46 pm

it did help that Enzo wasn't called Smith of course

And that Dino was killed tragically young

And that in Villeneuve he had the bravest, most exciting F1 driver we're ever going to see.......the father, obviously

lot more to brands than names, even when you've been christened with them
http://www.brilliantliving.co.uk - Smart Home technology and lighting design powered by Joomla!

User avatar
dorjano
Joomla! Explorer
Joomla! Explorer
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:26 am
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by dorjano » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:32 pm

Nice site you have ;) iainshaw, but he joomla ups. sorry Joomla! sounds still bad to me :D
Moderator of Slovenian Forum

guider
Joomla! Enthusiast
Joomla! Enthusiast
Posts: 140
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:42 pm

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by guider » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:58 pm

The only alternative was to setup a vote with ALL submissions and hide the results. I'm curious for the answers the thread starter asks here, too.

User avatar
iainshaw
Joomla! Explorer
Joomla! Explorer
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:32 am
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by iainshaw » Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:17 am

thank you Dorjano.  I'm starting to really like the name now  I think it needs a very strong visual identity though.  I'm starting to go off the coloured hand logo idea
http://www.brilliantliving.co.uk - Smart Home technology and lighting design powered by Joomla!

User avatar
Tyndal
Joomla! Enthusiast
Joomla! Enthusiast
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:28 am
Location: Saxony - Germany
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by Tyndal » Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:15 pm

dorjano wrote: Now my friend find me a better name then Ferrari for a Ferrari. The names are important. And yes, the Ferrari brand was chosen befor the famouse car producer gain popularitiy I agree. But this is a short nice sounding easy to remember name wich joomla is not.
mhh... in most cases i would agree that names are very important. But in this special-IT-cms-question i have to disagree!
If someone knows Joomla! he'd install it for himself (because it's that easy  ;D )

So if anyone doesn't have a CMS and is looking for professional help... well... then he doesn't care what name that cms will have - and he will care evel less when he is told that it is a pricewinning but priceless CMS

What is more important to a customer: The name of the CMS his website is running with or that he can use it (easily) and he does not have to pay (for the program).

i REALLY think that this name will not harm buisness users!
And i can imagine that Joomla! will have great success BECAUSE of it's strange name.

At least - some official comments to macern's doubts would be welcome.

tyndal
-=This is my signature - nothing more - nothing less=-

User avatar
stingrey
Joomla! Hero
Joomla! Hero
Posts: 2756
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:36 pm
Location: Marikina, Metro Manila, Philippines
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by stingrey » Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:27 pm

Tyndal wrote: At least - some official comments to macern's doubts would be welcome.
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... l#msg27286
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... l#msg27398
Rey Gigataras
http://www.wizmediateam.com <-- great team of talented Web Designers and Programmers!
http://about.me/reygigataras <-- About Me :)
Partner, Business Development & Project Manager, Event Manager, Sports Coach :D

User avatar
dorjano
Joomla! Explorer
Joomla! Explorer
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:26 am
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by dorjano » Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:45 pm

I guess that at this point any further discussion about the name is worthless. What is done is done.
So to all Joomla! users (or better, prospect users - since we don't have a product jet ;) )  a big warmly, truly, fully honest hug.

Cheers

Thumbs up for Joomla! ( :D: :()
Moderator of Slovenian Forum

User avatar
Tyndal
Joomla! Enthusiast
Joomla! Enthusiast
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:28 am
Location: Saxony - Germany
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by Tyndal » Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:02 pm

stingrey wrote:
Tyndal wrote: At least - some official comments to macern's doubts would be welcome.
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... l#msg27286
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... l#msg27398
Hi stingrey,

thanks for those links - haven't found them due to exploding threads all over the forum.

Ok, as i've mentioned first: a name had to be choosen, a name was choosen, it's not the name but the program behind. I wouldn't wonder if we become part of some new IT-trends (names) - there'll be a lot of swaehli names following.
After some headache about the name i like it more and more each hour passes. I was just concerned about the registration-date which was mentioned - but if there was pre-registration of dozens of names it makes sense - thanks for pointing that out.

So i'm looking forward for the first jOOmla!-release - and i'm worry about it (due to several core-hacks that will become overwritten  :-\ )

greetings,

tyndal
-=This is my signature - nothing more - nothing less=-

holycow
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 5:41 pm

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by holycow » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:42 am

macern, excellent points.

User avatar
jema
Joomla! Intern
Joomla! Intern
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:45 am
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by jema » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:50 am

Whilst I do not like the name. I am glad it was done this way.

It has got the matter sorted, and allowed people to get domain names in a straightforward fashion.

we can now move on.

Jayam
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:54 am

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by Jayam » Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:11 pm

The thread raises a serious question:
The name was alleged to have been CHOSED from among many options put forward by the community.

As macern points out, this seems NOT TRUE.

1. While it is perfectly OK for the devs to go ahead and choose a name without even consulting with the community, it is NOT OK to lie that the name was chosen from the variants offered by the Community.

2. Whether the name is good or bad is not the point of this thread.

3. It is NOT OK to dismiss the points raised by macern by saying that let foregones by foregones. If so, what is the spirit of Open Source all about? Isn't it about being straightforward and truthful to the community?

4. Its patronising to ask somebody to do whatever it takes (don't tell the clients, start a fork with another name, etc) but just agree to the name.

5. Of course its too late to rethink the name. It would be stupid to ask for a reconsideration, now that the word is out... but can't we just ask questions on WHY THE DEVS CLAIM that the name was chosen from the options thrown up by the community while it seems clear that they had made up their mind long before...?

6. Isn't it bit awkward to think that while the community was thinking hard and coming up with various names, the devs had smugly decided the name long back and sat back to watch the fun of childish community members fighting it out over their respective choices of names?

So kindly stick to the point of the thread without drastic dramatic apologies about the need to ignore and go on business.

JM.
Last edited by Jayam on Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
stingrey
Joomla! Hero
Joomla! Hero
Posts: 2756
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:36 pm
Location: Marikina, Metro Manila, Philippines
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by stingrey » Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:21 pm

Jayam wrote: 1. While it is perfectly OK for the devs to go ahead and choose a name without even consulting with the community, it is NOT OK to lie that the name was chosen from the variants offered by the Community.
I'm not sure where exactly people got the impression that the Name for the project would definitely be chosen from the variants offered by the community.

As stated by the OSM Project Leader (Andrew Eddie) here
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... 272.0.html
We simply asked the coomunity for suggestions on the name
masterchief wrote: The Unnamed CMS Development team would like your help in finding a name for that which was formerly known as Mambo.

Please post your suggestions here keeping in mind:

* it should be easy to remember and spell
* the domain should be available
* the meaning of the word if applicable (for example if it's a swahili word)
* has no trademark or copyright restrictions or prior use (for example, Mambo is also a trademark of Mambo Clothing)

We are open to any suggestions but the Development Teams's will make the final decision on any name.  To prevent domain poaching, we will keep the selection to the name a secret (shhh) until domains, etc, have been secured.

If people mistakenly believed that we were definitely choosing a name from their suggestions, than we apologise - it was not our intention to potentially mislead people.  However, we made it clear in the forum thread that we were asking for community suggestions.

And we did take the suggestions of the community seriously and all the name suggestions were filtered through the minimum requirements I posted links to, we then created the shortlist and from this made the final decision.


I dont believe any of the Core Team members have been dismissive to any concerns raised by the community, we have always tried to address and answer the issues raised and if you follow the links I posted here, you will see we have outlined what was invovled in the process.
stingrey wrote:
Tyndal wrote: At least - some official comments to macern's doubts would be welcome.
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... l#msg27286
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... l#msg27398
Last edited by stingrey on Sun Sep 04, 2005 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rey Gigataras
http://www.wizmediateam.com <-- great team of talented Web Designers and Programmers!
http://about.me/reygigataras <-- About Me :)
Partner, Business Development & Project Manager, Event Manager, Sports Coach :D

User avatar
stingrey
Joomla! Hero
Joomla! Hero
Posts: 2756
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:36 pm
Location: Marikina, Metro Manila, Philippines
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by stingrey » Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:26 pm

Jayam wrote: 5. Of course its too late to rethink the name. It would be stupid to ask for a reconsideration, now that the word is out... but can't we just ask questions on WHY THE DEVS CLAIM that the name was chosen from the options thrown up by the community while it seems clear that they had made up their mind long before...?

6. Isn't it bit awkward to think that while the community was thinking hard and coming up with various names, the devs had smugly decided the name long back and sat back to watch the fun of childish community members fighting it out over their respective choices of names?
As stated we asked the community for suggestions.

Neither were we smugly sitting anywhere, we value the communities input as we always have.
The name discussion and decision process took up the better part of more than a week of almost full time dedication around the clock (as we are an International group, so there was always someone going through the process).
In fact 2 of our Core members had separate family problems during parts of the process, yet still made time to be involved in the process.
Last edited by stingrey on Sun Sep 04, 2005 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rey Gigataras
http://www.wizmediateam.com <-- great team of talented Web Designers and Programmers!
http://about.me/reygigataras <-- About Me :)
Partner, Business Development & Project Manager, Event Manager, Sports Coach :D

chris1265
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:36 am

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by chris1265 » Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:45 pm

i don't think the core-team has to defend their decision,. and somewhere the name 'joomla' must have shown up.
I don't think anyone has choosen this CMS coz of his name, or coz of the flower. Usually ppl have a look at several 'compareable' systems and take that one which fits most or can be made fitting. Those who took ?ambo coz of the name or the flower pls post below ;)

greets

chris

User avatar
damo
Joomla! Explorer
Joomla! Explorer
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:49 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by damo » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:43 pm

like the name or not (and i dont) you've got to ask questions about the firm that was used. was it a mickey mouse outfit? and whats with the !. doh!

anyway. it's only a name ... as for defending decisions, if the core deve team are going to go out their and expect the support of the community then they have to defend it if that same community isn't happy

if a doctor tells me i;ve got something wrong wit me, i'd go for a second opinion becuase it's important. picking the name for this project was important. admitadly some of the names that came up from the community were a joke but the dev team could have got a second opinion

User avatar
Norgaard
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:01 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by Norgaard » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:48 pm

Hmmm...  :) As a matter of fact in some ways Joomla makes much more sense than 'Mambo'. Mambo is a dance...
Now I wanna dance with Joomla. I am not gonna dance with future versions of 'MiroMambo'...

Keepon smiling  :( Norgaard (Oslo, Norway)
Last edited by Norgaard on Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
mediamagnate
Joomla! Explorer
Joomla! Explorer
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:09 pm
Location: Shepparton
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by mediamagnate » Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:31 pm

damo wrote: like the name or not (and i dont) you've got to ask questions about the firm that was used. was it a mickey mouse outfit? and whats with the !. doh!

anyway. it's only a name ... as for defending decisions, if the core deve team are going to go out their and expect the support of the community then they have to defend it if that same community isn't happy

if a doctor tells me i;ve got something wrong wit me, i'd go for a second opinion becuase it's important. picking the name for this project was important. admitadly some of the names that came up from the community were a joke but the dev team could have got a second opinion

The people we consulted worked pro-bono for us. Normally contribution would have cost a considerable amount. As with any branding exercise, you cannot please everyone. These experts consult for Mitsubishi, Pacific Dunlop, IBM and other blue chip companies. The process was exhausting. Including the use of focus groups, three creatives and one facilitator. The end result Joomla! makes a lot of sense when you consider a fulcrum for the decision was about "what names are taken" and "what names would we be competing with".

When we first looked at Joomla, there were THREE references on Google and most of those were typos. As of writing this there are about 2.4 million references to Joomla on Google.co.uk. For your information the brand essence which was distilled from the market research was "Celebrate the Freedom". We are Joomla and we've been celebrating that freedom for a month.
Last edited by mediamagnate on Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joomla is a project, not a product! www.nooku.org

User avatar
damo
Joomla! Explorer
Joomla! Explorer
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:49 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by damo » Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:50 pm

like i've said, it's only a name and my views on the name are only that. i agree you cant please everyone but you could have performed any number of exercises prior to announcement to get a feel for it. it's still not grown on me i'm afriad and i really hate the !

i should also state here and now i'm all for joomla and everyhting everyone has done to get it this far.

i hope the freedom can continue to be celebreated, 'all together'

User avatar
mediamagnate
Joomla! Explorer
Joomla! Explorer
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:09 pm
Location: Shepparton
Contact:

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Post by mediamagnate » Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:17 pm

damo wrote: i should also state here and now i'm all for joomla and everyhting everyone has done to get it this far.

i hope the freedom can continue to be celebreated, 'all together'
Great. I can't agree more with that.
Joomla is a project, not a product! www.nooku.org


Post Reply

Return to “Reaction to New Project Name”