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Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:32 pm
by macern
We have a saying here in Norway «Ikke bann i kirka» "do not swear in church".

But since I'm not religious, I'm going to swear in this "church", or criticize the new name for a nice product.

YES, I THINK Joomla! is a bad, stupid and, and, and name.

The so called "world class PR/Marketing firm" that has been involved in this name selection, can not have taken in consideration that we do not all speak English!
That this is a product and community that comes from almost every part of this world we live in.
World class PR firm or not, I would have kicked their sweet as.. out of the door bringing a name like this on the table!

Thinking of trying to marked a product with a name like this, to any type of a Norwegian company or organization, well, it makes me just want to give up now, and look elsewhere for a product with a much better name.

On joomla.org http://www.joomla.org/content/view/12/26/ I quote this:
This name was chosen from thousands of recommendations by the community, and even went through an arduous review session by branding and marketing professionals who also felt that Joomla! was the best choice of the lot.

I have looked trough these threads for a mention, or something that looks like this new, unspeakable name:

http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... 189.0.html
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... ,89.0.html
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... 272.0.html

Not finding anything that looks, or mentions anything that is close to the new name.
Except this: Joolie
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... ml#msg2064

And I also did a search for joomla and jumla last night (norwegian time) not long after the name was made public, and did not find any post with these 2 names from August 21st or earlier

And since both joomla.org and joomla.com was registered August 21st 2005 (Just do a whois searc, and you can see).
Also makes me think that the "core team" or the "World class PR firm" have come up with this name without any regards to all the ideas that have come from this community.

I was seriously understanding that this name selection would be a "community" decision, not only a "core" decision?
Was not this one of the big reasons "we all" came here from Mambo and Miro, to have a say in extremely important issues like this?

With all the "know how & brainpower" that this community have, it would not have taken much "work" from the "core" to have made available a community vote that would not have shown any results before a given date.

And especially since several members did do most of the work by collection, sorting and made most of the name suggestions available at this URL:
http://cmeister2.warwickcompsoc.co.uk/whois/index.php

So, please point me to the post, and honor the member that came up with this name or idea, since I do not seem to find it anywhere on this place.
And I also did a search for joomla and jumla last night (norwegian time) not long after the name was made public, and did not find any post with these 2 names from August 21st or earlier.

This community member have also written, and much better than I could, many of the issues I have with the new name:
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... l#msg25718

This new "name" does not have a nice sound in Norwegian, and I have also seen that other Scandinavian countries does not take very well to this name either.
So I can only think that this "world class PR firm" does not have much knowledge about non English speaking countries.

If I was only going to use J**mla for a personal site, I would not give a sh... about this name.
But since I have now, for the last 6 months working on going "commercial" with Mambo, this new name just makes me want to give it up, because the name, or the brand name is very important if you want to sell something to people who do not know anything about this.
And trying to sell this name in Norwegian, a name that for me, looks like no one in this community know how to pronounce, will not be easy, impossible.

Off course I can keep using Mambo, but what is Mambo with out it's 3DP contribution.
Just another CMS.
It's the 3DP that makes Mambo/J**mla so unique!

So can please the "core team" answer the community where this name came from?

And why was not the "community" involved in this decision?

Was this not one of the biggest arguments for the "community" to break from Mambo/Miro, that the community was not taken into consideration about important decisions like this?

Or is this issue just another "legal reason" so we can not say anything?


Sorry for my English, It's not my native language.

A very disappointed Mambo user regarding the new name J**mla.
And please, drop the "!" exclamation mark!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:08 pm
by MystaMax
macern wrote: Thinking of trying to marked a product with a name like this, to any type of a Norwegian company or organization, well, it makes me just want to give up now, and look elsewhere for a product with a much better name.
hey good luck. I, myself would never let a product name dictate if i'm going to use it or not. thats just stupid, and I mean no disrepect.  I can't even put that into perspective. I hope (and am pretty sure) that your comments are just opinions.

To be honest, I thought it was weird myself. I thought, "what were they thinking?".  but, its only been a day since they released this.

i'm sure they took into account the people who were gonna dislike it, but I suppose that group of people were outnumbered.

If you were trying to make a point, you accomplished that. But, i dont think this was any where close to being the most appropiate way to do that.

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:12 pm
by Tyndal
Hi macern,

i do understand that you are disappointed right now, but maybe this name will benefit you, too... you'll have to see.

As i said in some posts before:

- a decision about the name has to be done!
- someone had to make that decision!
- this community is tooooo large to choose a name without killing each other
- giving 20 names for voting to the community would lead to a registration-run of all those 20 names-domains in all TLDs within a few seconds, don't you think? So the core-devs would have to register all those domains before they give them out for voting.
- does your customers are close enough to the scene to know the difference between mambo, joomla, typo3, drupal and so on - does anyone is REALLY interested in how the cms is named? Do you have to use a name? Just say "i'll install you a cms..." "c m what???"... i think it's harder to explain what a CMS is and how it can be used than saying that name, isn't it?

If you are unhappy with that name: wouldn't you be allowed to build a "Norway-CMS" (name it like you want) - a fork out of Joomla - exactly the same code... that should be allowed, isn't it? So name it like you want for your special purposes. None of your customers will look into the sourcecode.

But something that makes me a bit unhappy: if it is right that the name was choosen at August 21th... why was there an announcement of "have accepted the offer of free advice from a world leading brand consultancy. We had found ourselves going around in circles with the caliber of names suggested but now we’re close." at August 26th ("now we're close" seems to me that no name was found until that point).

That's a bit confusing to me... maybe because of the TM, afraid that m1ro would catch that TM before the devs can?
Well, that's a point i'd like the team to answer - despite that i accept the name - the reasons i've mentioned above.

regards,

tyndal

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:18 pm
by Dragonfly
Joomla is a wonderful name... other names are too common....

And its really not the name but its rather what you get out of the name. Even if you have the best name but worse software  its useless. Of course the best cms deserve the best name but it will become the best name after few years. Just wait and watch...

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
by dorjano
Tyndal wrote: ...
- does your customers are close enough to the scene to know the difference between mambo, joomla, typo3, drupal and so on - does anyone is REALLY interested in how the cms is named? Do you have to use a name? Just say "i'll install you a cms..." "c m what???"... i think it's harder to explain what a CMS is and how it can be used than saying that name, isn't it?
...
tyndal

Now my friend find me a better name then Ferrari for a Ferrari. The names are important. And yes, the Ferrari brand was chosen befor the famouse car producer gain popularitiy I agree. But this is a short nice sounding easy to remember name wich joomla is not.

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:46 pm
by iainshaw
it did help that Enzo wasn't called Smith of course

And that Dino was killed tragically young

And that in Villeneuve he had the bravest, most exciting F1 driver we're ever going to see.......the father, obviously

lot more to brands than names, even when you've been christened with them

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:32 pm
by dorjano
Nice site you have ;) iainshaw, but he joomla ups. sorry Joomla! sounds still bad to me :D

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:58 pm
by guider
The only alternative was to setup a vote with ALL submissions and hide the results. I'm curious for the answers the thread starter asks here, too.

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:17 am
by iainshaw
thank you Dorjano.  I'm starting to really like the name now  I think it needs a very strong visual identity though.  I'm starting to go off the coloured hand logo idea

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:15 pm
by Tyndal
dorjano wrote: Now my friend find me a better name then Ferrari for a Ferrari. The names are important. And yes, the Ferrari brand was chosen befor the famouse car producer gain popularitiy I agree. But this is a short nice sounding easy to remember name wich joomla is not.
mhh... in most cases i would agree that names are very important. But in this special-IT-cms-question i have to disagree!
If someone knows Joomla! he'd install it for himself (because it's that easy  ;D )

So if anyone doesn't have a CMS and is looking for professional help... well... then he doesn't care what name that cms will have - and he will care evel less when he is told that it is a pricewinning but priceless CMS

What is more important to a customer: The name of the CMS his website is running with or that he can use it (easily) and he does not have to pay (for the program).

i REALLY think that this name will not harm buisness users!
And i can imagine that Joomla! will have great success BECAUSE of it's strange name.

At least - some official comments to macern's doubts would be welcome.

tyndal

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:27 pm
by stingrey
Tyndal wrote: At least - some official comments to macern's doubts would be welcome.
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... l#msg27286
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... l#msg27398

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:45 pm
by dorjano
I guess that at this point any further discussion about the name is worthless. What is done is done.
So to all Joomla! users (or better, prospect users - since we don't have a product jet ;) )  a big warmly, truly, fully honest hug.

Cheers

Thumbs up for Joomla! ( :D: :()

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:02 pm
by Tyndal
stingrey wrote:
Tyndal wrote: At least - some official comments to macern's doubts would be welcome.
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... l#msg27286
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... l#msg27398
Hi stingrey,

thanks for those links - haven't found them due to exploding threads all over the forum.

Ok, as i've mentioned first: a name had to be choosen, a name was choosen, it's not the name but the program behind. I wouldn't wonder if we become part of some new IT-trends (names) - there'll be a lot of swaehli names following.
After some headache about the name i like it more and more each hour passes. I was just concerned about the registration-date which was mentioned - but if there was pre-registration of dozens of names it makes sense - thanks for pointing that out.

So i'm looking forward for the first jOOmla!-release - and i'm worry about it (due to several core-hacks that will become overwritten  :-\ )

greetings,

tyndal

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:42 am
by holycow
macern, excellent points.

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:50 am
by jema
Whilst I do not like the name. I am glad it was done this way.

It has got the matter sorted, and allowed people to get domain names in a straightforward fashion.

we can now move on.

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:11 pm
by Jayam
The thread raises a serious question:
The name was alleged to have been CHOSED from among many options put forward by the community.

As macern points out, this seems NOT TRUE.

1. While it is perfectly OK for the devs to go ahead and choose a name without even consulting with the community, it is NOT OK to lie that the name was chosen from the variants offered by the Community.

2. Whether the name is good or bad is not the point of this thread.

3. It is NOT OK to dismiss the points raised by macern by saying that let foregones by foregones. If so, what is the spirit of Open Source all about? Isn't it about being straightforward and truthful to the community?

4. Its patronising to ask somebody to do whatever it takes (don't tell the clients, start a fork with another name, etc) but just agree to the name.

5. Of course its too late to rethink the name. It would be stupid to ask for a reconsideration, now that the word is out... but can't we just ask questions on WHY THE DEVS CLAIM that the name was chosen from the options thrown up by the community while it seems clear that they had made up their mind long before...?

6. Isn't it bit awkward to think that while the community was thinking hard and coming up with various names, the devs had smugly decided the name long back and sat back to watch the fun of childish community members fighting it out over their respective choices of names?

So kindly stick to the point of the thread without drastic dramatic apologies about the need to ignore and go on business.

JM.

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:21 pm
by stingrey
Jayam wrote: 1. While it is perfectly OK for the devs to go ahead and choose a name without even consulting with the community, it is NOT OK to lie that the name was chosen from the variants offered by the Community.
I'm not sure where exactly people got the impression that the Name for the project would definitely be chosen from the variants offered by the community.

As stated by the OSM Project Leader (Andrew Eddie) here
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... 272.0.html
We simply asked the coomunity for suggestions on the name
masterchief wrote: The Unnamed CMS Development team would like your help in finding a name for that which was formerly known as Mambo.

Please post your suggestions here keeping in mind:

* it should be easy to remember and spell
* the domain should be available
* the meaning of the word if applicable (for example if it's a swahili word)
* has no trademark or copyright restrictions or prior use (for example, Mambo is also a trademark of Mambo Clothing)

We are open to any suggestions but the Development Teams's will make the final decision on any name.  To prevent domain poaching, we will keep the selection to the name a secret (shhh) until domains, etc, have been secured.

If people mistakenly believed that we were definitely choosing a name from their suggestions, than we apologise - it was not our intention to potentially mislead people.  However, we made it clear in the forum thread that we were asking for community suggestions.

And we did take the suggestions of the community seriously and all the name suggestions were filtered through the minimum requirements I posted links to, we then created the shortlist and from this made the final decision.


I dont believe any of the Core Team members have been dismissive to any concerns raised by the community, we have always tried to address and answer the issues raised and if you follow the links I posted here, you will see we have outlined what was invovled in the process.
stingrey wrote:
Tyndal wrote: At least - some official comments to macern's doubts would be welcome.
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... l#msg27286
http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... l#msg27398

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:26 pm
by stingrey
Jayam wrote: 5. Of course its too late to rethink the name. It would be stupid to ask for a reconsideration, now that the word is out... but can't we just ask questions on WHY THE DEVS CLAIM that the name was chosen from the options thrown up by the community while it seems clear that they had made up their mind long before...?

6. Isn't it bit awkward to think that while the community was thinking hard and coming up with various names, the devs had smugly decided the name long back and sat back to watch the fun of childish community members fighting it out over their respective choices of names?
As stated we asked the community for suggestions.

Neither were we smugly sitting anywhere, we value the communities input as we always have.
The name discussion and decision process took up the better part of more than a week of almost full time dedication around the clock (as we are an International group, so there was always someone going through the process).
In fact 2 of our Core members had separate family problems during parts of the process, yet still made time to be involved in the process.

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:45 pm
by chris1265
i don't think the core-team has to defend their decision,. and somewhere the name 'joomla' must have shown up.
I don't think anyone has choosen this CMS coz of his name, or coz of the flower. Usually ppl have a look at several 'compareable' systems and take that one which fits most or can be made fitting. Those who took ?ambo coz of the name or the flower pls post below ;)

greets

chris

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:43 pm
by damo
like the name or not (and i dont) you've got to ask questions about the firm that was used. was it a mickey mouse outfit? and whats with the !. doh!

anyway. it's only a name ... as for defending decisions, if the core deve team are going to go out their and expect the support of the community then they have to defend it if that same community isn't happy

if a doctor tells me i;ve got something wrong wit me, i'd go for a second opinion becuase it's important. picking the name for this project was important. admitadly some of the names that came up from the community were a joke but the dev team could have got a second opinion

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:48 pm
by Norgaard
Hmmm...  :) As a matter of fact in some ways Joomla makes much more sense than 'Mambo'. Mambo is a dance...
Now I wanna dance with Joomla. I am not gonna dance with future versions of 'MiroMambo'...

Keepon smiling  :( Norgaard (Oslo, Norway)

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:31 pm
by mediamagnate
damo wrote: like the name or not (and i dont) you've got to ask questions about the firm that was used. was it a mickey mouse outfit? and whats with the !. doh!

anyway. it's only a name ... as for defending decisions, if the core deve team are going to go out their and expect the support of the community then they have to defend it if that same community isn't happy

if a doctor tells me i;ve got something wrong wit me, i'd go for a second opinion becuase it's important. picking the name for this project was important. admitadly some of the names that came up from the community were a joke but the dev team could have got a second opinion

The people we consulted worked pro-bono for us. Normally contribution would have cost a considerable amount. As with any branding exercise, you cannot please everyone. These experts consult for Mitsubishi, Pacific Dunlop, IBM and other blue chip companies. The process was exhausting. Including the use of focus groups, three creatives and one facilitator. The end result Joomla! makes a lot of sense when you consider a fulcrum for the decision was about "what names are taken" and "what names would we be competing with".

When we first looked at Joomla, there were THREE references on Google and most of those were typos. As of writing this there are about 2.4 million references to Joomla on Google.co.uk. For your information the brand essence which was distilled from the market research was "Celebrate the Freedom". We are Joomla and we've been celebrating that freedom for a month.

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:50 pm
by damo
like i've said, it's only a name and my views on the name are only that. i agree you cant please everyone but you could have performed any number of exercises prior to announcement to get a feel for it. it's still not grown on me i'm afriad and i really hate the !

i should also state here and now i'm all for joomla and everyhting everyone has done to get it this far.

i hope the freedom can continue to be celebreated, 'all together'

Re: Why, why, why - Joomla

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:17 pm
by mediamagnate
damo wrote: i should also state here and now i'm all for joomla and everyhting everyone has done to get it this far.

i hope the freedom can continue to be celebreated, 'all together'
Great. I can't agree more with that.