Accessibility and installation of J! 1.5

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absalom
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Accessibility and installation of J! 1.5

Post by absalom » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:20 am

Asphyx wrote: It will work as well and better than it ever has straight out of the box.,..
Not in all cases. The out of box installation experience can be very painful if you have to use screenreader software, due to the addition of xajax and some custom JS by Johan inside the install procedure. 1.0.x in this respect navigated the install procedure better than 1.5.
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Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by Asphyx » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:16 pm

Well Ab without taking this thread completely off topic....

You know full well my position on the inadequacies of accessability software dealing with emerging technologies such as Java and Ajax...

But lets not rehash that in this thread.

J!1.5 is the transitional release...to bridge the old with the new...
It is not meant to solve all the WCAG deficiencies of the old framework.
Some new modules are written to emulate the best they can the old subsystems in the old framework. This was done to ensure backward compatability which will affect a lot more users than any deficiency inherent in todays screen readers.
The purpose is to get the new framework installed and debugged so that the Devs and 3PDs can start to develop subsystems for the new framework.

One of those sub system will be an output module that once done will address Full WCAG and any other accessability issue not addressed in WCAG 2.0

This is the goal of the proposed Joomla 2.0. But you can't get there until the Framework needed to create those subsystems is in place!

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Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by absalom » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:52 pm

Asphyx wrote: You know full well my position on the inadequacies of accessability software dealing with emerging technologies such as Java and Ajax...

But lets not rehash that in this thread.

J!1.5 is the transitional release...to bridge the old with the new...
So why aren't tried and true web SDLC principles such as graceful degradation or progressive enhancement being used by our developers in 1.5 in this respect ?

At least then people can work around the way the functionality has changed, instead of being locked out of it completely. The bridge is locked down for people in this respect.
Asphyx wrote: One of those sub system will be an output module that once done will address Full WCAG and any other accessability issue not addressed in WCAG 2.0
You're missing my point. My point isn't about screenreaders - they're just used as examples of evidence of a problem existing within the way the software has been designed. It's about the principles of industry best practice coding and design, which in some ways 1.0.x does better than 1.5 (e.g. install procedure and AJAX/JS dependence, also potentially backend/JS dependence).
Asphyx wrote: This is the goal of the proposed Joomla 2.0. But you can't get there until the Framework needed to create those subsystems is in place!
So graceful degradation and/or progressive enhancement of navigation structures aren't part of industry best practice, irrespective of whatever code you're working on (subsystem or not) ?
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Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by Jenny » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:27 pm

First and final request to keep this thread on topic.  Move talk of the accessibility or lack thereof specifically oriented towards Joomla! 1.5 to the Accessibility and Design Forum.  Any further off topic posts will be removed.

Thank you. :)

Mod edit:  These posts were moved from this thread at this point: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg548332
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Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by Asphyx » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:41 pm

It's about the principles of industry best practice coding and design,
Nothing about J1.5 stops you from doing Industry best practice....

If you actually know what they are then 1.5 will allow you to implement them!

Your contention is this isn't done for you already...
But it wasn't meant to be done for you until J! 2.0!

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Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by absalom » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:51 pm

Asphyx wrote:
It's about the principles of industry best practice coding and design,
Nothing about J1.5 stops you from doing Industry best practice....
Except for the fact that the core developers don't follow it in areas of their work. The evidence for this is the way 1.5 is designed. This says something about the overall product.. which is why I'm approaching this from a "where J! fails / what we can learn from others" approach, which is why I'm talking about SDLC principles, not about how the install procedure fails. I've already done that on the D&A forum so there are extensive notes for the core to learn from.
Asphyx wrote: If you actually know what they are then 1.5 will allow you to implement them!
No, it won't. If it did, the core would have designed 1.5 in light of graceful degradation and progressive enhancement.
Asphyx wrote: Your contention is this isn't done for you already...
That's not my contention at all. My point is that industry best practice hasn't been followed by the core team in developing and designing 1.5. If it did, it would be obvious that SDLC principles such as graceful degradation and progressive enhancement are part of the final product. There is at least one area within the product (the install) that has evidence that industry best practice still needs to be delivered correctly.
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Accessibility and installation of J! 1.5

Post by brad » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:55 pm

Lawrence, if you hate Joomla and it's developers so much, no one is forcing you to stay here, or to use Joomla. As the title of this thread suggests, there are other options, have you checked out Drupal, perhaps it will fit your needs.

As already posted, please keep posts in this thread on topic.
Last edited by Jenny on Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by absalom » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:08 pm

brad wrote: Lawrence, if you hate Joomla and it's developers so much, no one is forcing you to stay here, or to use Joomla. As the title of this thread suggests, there are other options, have you checked out Drupal, perhaps it will fit your needs.

As already posted, please keep posts in this thread on topic.
SDLC isn't part of accessibility by a long shot - it's part of the overall design and development of software as a product, which is where the initial thread of "Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )" remains contextually appropriate and on topic. Who taught you that it was ?

As for your other claims about me, I've PMed you. I don't hate Joomla. I don't hate its developers. If I did, I'd go round badmouthing people behind their back when they didn't have the freedom to respond (not saying other people have done that to me, but anyways  8) )
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