Horrible (x)html output... so easy to fix - why don't?

[mgartner]

Hello,

I'm learning/using Joomla! for a while now and have to say it's nice designed in functionality and usability - but (like a quadrillion other user allready said) it has a horrible html code base! Sorry but it's very annoying... 

A good example is the actual inbuilt contact form! I set up the contact to not display any contact informations but only show the form itself - and here is the result - empty tables in tables and empty cells and cells and cells .... (Note: I've only removed the form itself)

Code: Select all

<table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0" class="contentpane">
	<tr>
		<td width="100%">
				
			<table width="100%">
				<tr>
					<td>
					
						<table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0">
						</table>
						<br />
						
					</td>
					<td align="right" valign="top">
					</td>
				</tr>
			</table>
					
		</td>
		<td> </td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td colspan="2">
			<br />
			The real contact form goes here ...
			...
		</td>
	</tr>
</table>

These are so easy things to be removed or corrected in the Joomla core (I've done it in about 30 minutes for this example) so I don't understand, why it isn't allready done by the official Joomla developers!?

I don't want to hack and patch the whole core so every update will result in a nightmare.
Please please please have a heart for us and remove at least some of the ugliest glitches regarding the code output!

Thanks in advance,
Martin G. (who nevertheless loves Joomla!)

[karol.cejka]

I'm not a core team developer, but i thing it is because Backward Compatibility for templates.
But ... yes ... it will be so sexy if command mosMainBody() have some switch with table and div style.

[mgartner]

I'm not a core team developer, but i thing it is because Backward Compatibility for templates.
But ... yes ... it will be so sexy if command mosMainBody() have some switch with table and div style.

The backwards compatibility can't be the reason, because it's really not too hard to add an additional switch (-2) and add a div based output.

Greetings,
Martin

[karol.cejka]

I know it, you know it, but why it don't know core development team? 

[Jenny]

They do know it.  If you both haven't had a chance to take a look at 1.5 beta which is a total restructure of Joomla! then I suggest you do.

If you are looking for tableless (or as close to it as possible) Joomla! for the 1.0.xx series you can consider Accessible Joomla!  http://forge.joomla.org/sf/projects/accessible_joomla

[karol.cejka]

If you are looking for tableless (or as close to it as possible) Joomla! for the 1.0.xx series you can consider Accessible Joomla!  http://forge.joomla.org/sf/projects/accessible_joomla

Good information for me! Thanks.

[mgartner]

They do know it.  If you both haven't had a chance to take a look at 1.5 beta which is a total restructure of Joomla! then I suggest you do.

Yes I know 1.5 - but the problem is 1.5 stable is miles away...

If you are looking for tableless (or as close to it as possible) Joomla! for the 1.0.xx series you can consider Accessible Joomla!  http://forge.joomla.org/sf/projects/accessible_joomla

This is no choice for us as we only use the official project for live sites.


Greetings,
Martin

[absalom]

"Backwards compatibility" is a trojan horse. It always gets raised when these sorts of things get discussed. The templating system (i.e. the one the designers use / com_template system) doesn't give a flying hamster1 for backwards compatibility. At the end of the day, it's just wrapping some code from the CMS inside a template layout.

Sometimes we are more fascinated by the forms than by the substance

"Total restructure" is marketrioding at best - since the point of the restructure should be to correctly address issues, not merely restructure for developer "brownie points" (i.e "hey, we're now OO and MVC.. gosh we're good" groupthink). Developer vs developer egos can get blown out of proportion. There is no use dazzling the masses with jargon and excuses if the thing doesn't work.. (would a significant speed hit on 1.5 vs 1.x be considered "not working?")

Basically what happens is that the J! core team beg, borrow and "borg" from other projects (usually forks who do the job better). It was over 2 years ago since XMambo came out and we're still using the same semantic model from 3.04 days. Whatever happened to Tim's work ? (Or even worse, Travis Smallgood's?).. xMambo worked, but for reasons unknown, it wasn't good enough for the core at the time.. Nic, from what I can make out, also did another fork that was WCAG compliant and tableless when he was part of the Core Team here, and that likewise wasn't good enough..

We unfortunately live in a corporate world where group decision making is made to avoid failure rather than to achieve success

From what I've been reading of the core blogs, forums and paper trail, the Core team, especially Johan, are coding furiously still for 1.5. Perhaps in this time of family, celebration, Christmas and relaxation, it would be good for them to code less and think more as to why they're coding what they are..

Think 8 hours, work 2 hours

It will end up better for all involved in the long run. We mitigate the risk of the Core team burning out. We also get some time to think through why we're doing what we're doing and the way we're doing it, both in terms of code and in terms of community.

All quotes from "401 Design Meditations", Catherine Fishel, Rockport Publishing
1. Weird Al Yankovic, "Harvey the wonder hamster", 1993
Edits: lots - typos, grammar, attribution of quotes and lots of other stuff I missed including Harvey comments.

[digitaldentist]

the content layer being seperated from the presentation layer, stop being logical!

The current a8 hack is the closet you will get, even then you still will need to edit some files.

At present, the current Joomla Beta looks like they are keeping the same "soupy" design,

[mgartner]

the content layer being seperated from the presentation layer, stop being logical!

The current a8 hack is the closet you will get, even then you still will need to edit some files.

At present, the current Joomla Beta looks like they are keeping the same "soupy" design,

We are currently evaluating other CMS systems which are more (or nearly full) standards conform. If 1.5 final is really in the same or similar state as 1.x we probably will left Joomla behind.

[karol.cejka]

It is very important to have in 1.5 clear DIV page design.
DIV design is BIG TASK for long time. I know, it exist some project, who solve it, but it is hack ... we don't want hack - we need nice Joomla!!!!
If 1.5 don't be clear, many project left Joomla! to other CMS!!!!

Front-end generation code represent quality of Joomla! don't forget it!
If discriminate clients look to generated page, and see TABLE tags, automaticly reject Joomla!

Make better generated html code, and then Joomla! community (users, implementations) will grow faster 

[mgartner]

It is very important to have in 1.5 clear DIV page design.
DIV design is BIG TASK for long time. I know, it exist some project, who solve it, but it is hack ... we don't want hack - we need nice Joomla!!!!
If 1.5 don't be clear, many project left Joomla! to other CMS!!!!

Front-end generation code represent quality of Joomla! don't forget it!
If discriminate clients look to generated page, and see TABLE tags, automaticly reject Joomla!

Make better generated html code, and then Joomla! community (users, implementations) will grow faster   :pop

I'm really afraid of 1.5 being same nasty XHTML code generator as previous Joomla versions....
This is so sad because Joomla is one of the best CMS when it comes to usability (both back- and frontend).

But I think I know what the problem is: 90% (if not more) of web developers still doesn't matter of how XHTML code is looking as far as end result (website) is looking as they want. So this task might not be a primary one in Joomla development progress. Even if official developers says so...

[digitaldentist]

Joomla despite its title as a CMS, is not a CMS , neither are many other "CMS" engine in my opinion.
A CMS has one function, and thats to manage content.  Anytime a web application claims to be a CMS, it should be broken into two definable sections; content and presentation.  Content should be anything you want to store, files, links, text strings, images, what ever. There should be no limits on what you store, or how you store it. As with any management of file systems, you should be able to assign permissions and set security on all aspects of your content.  The Presentation layer is merely for display of your content (if you choose)
These things, I would hope everyone knows about

Now Joomla, at its present Stable and Beta, limit the way you store your information.
Input is filtered, IE you can not put a URL inside a title field, or store the entire OED inside text field
You can not fine tune security, IE assign, you can not limit per article , or per user, or group fine tuned permissions per item
(userX can only see menu1 and only has read attributes to articles, even if they can get the admin interface)

Presentation , Joomla Stable has many presentation presets hard coded, so you will always have "Soupy" output unless you want to spend a fair amount of time coming through nearly every file to remove code. While you are at it, You can not change certain directories for hard coded items such as "templates" unless of course you want to alter the core code.

Joomla Beta offers over-rides at present. While many of the override functions allow you to set your own output, some things still  are hard coded, thus you can not design the site the way you want.

Since Joomla does not allow you to store content the way you want and display it the way you wish, it is not a true CMS , its a portal engine.  While portal engines are great, they are limited at what they can do by design, and thus effect your design.  So Joomla presenting soupy output is by design of the application itself. What is misleading its its branded as CMS, when clearly its a portal engine.

[mgartner]

@digitaldentist:

Hmm... interesting views! To be honest I think you are right in many points BUT I don't know any CMS system which does what you define a CMS should do! In many areas Joomla does a pretty good job and is definitely far away from being a portal system only. CMS systems will allways limit and Manage the way you store and output informations! The trick is to find the golden mean between full freedom and a kind of guidance system to help developers creating websites.

[digitaldentist]

There are a few that do exactly what I describe, would you like a list?

As for Joomla, I am not saying its bad, I am saying its mislabeled. Joomla has a long way to go before its a true content management system, which is a state it may never archive.

Yes Joomla has many nice features however unless the core dev team makes some radical changes , Joomla will always be a middle market
application in the world of Web Applications.

[cantthinkofanickname]

Yes please, give us a list. May as well be open about it.

I am looking for a move to CMS in conjunction with learning Dreamweaver 8. I see some one is selling a Joomla! add-on for this; anyone used it?

[digitaldentist]

Yes please, give us a list. May as well be open about it.

I am looking for a move to CMS in conjunction with learning Dreamweaver 8. I see some one is selling a Joomla! add-on for this; anyone used it?

To name just a few that spring to mind
Ezpublish
phpcms
typo 3
word press (with extensions)
Article Manager
Asbru

Runners up, Will take any input with minor editing
Geeklog
PHPX

I havent used theirs, I did create my own dreamweaver extention for mambo / joomla pages.

[AmyStephen]

It is very important to have in 1.5 clear DIV page design.
DIV design is BIG TASK for long time. I know, it exist some project, who solve it, but it is hack ... we don't want hack - we need nice Joomla!!!!

@Karol Have you had a chance to work with Joomla! v 1. 5 and also read Barrie North's User's Guide? You can achieve tableless output without hacking the code with J! v 1.5.

@CantThinkofaNickName (next time, think SHORTER!) If you are evaluating CMSes, consider http://opensourcecms.com/ That is a tremendously helpful resource and a sort of passageway many of us traveled as we considered options.

@DigitalDentist - Hey dude! We have not talked for awhile. Glad to see you in the forums. Now, try not to over analysis all of this and help somebody! LOL!

Kind regards,
Amy