Accessibility: shock and awe.. with figures

[absalom]

Around the world, between one fifth and two fifths of the world's population are disabled or have other accessibiliity issues with websites...

Now as I write this we have 83,867 members on the J! community forum. That means, of that figure, between 16,000 and 32,000 users were in some way limited or disadvantaged by the way J! is designed from the ground up.

Just something to consider..

[brian]

Where is that statistic from.Without reference it is meaningless

[absalom]

..  There is approximately 20% of the US population that self-identified as having a disability at the last census.  About the same in New Zealand.  I understand the UK is around the 1/5 mark as well.  This seems to be a world wide trend.  Andrew mentionned blind users, but accessibility is also important to a wide range of people with just as wide a range of disabilities. 

As for mythical, there is nothing mythical about the 25 non-profit groups, employing approximately 300 people between them (most of them with disabilities), whom I have been in close contact with, that told me they were very interested in Joomla, but couldn't touch it until it was accessible. 

That is not counting my blind friends who are giving me hell about the system not being really friendly to them.

And from what Nic said above, that's not even including the rapidly aging / "silver army" amongst the Western world. And face it, most of the silver army are doing what the teens and kids are doing - creating their own UGC (as it's a reverse bell curve for adoption of Internet behaviour.. with the valley in mid-life).

[brian]

Well the problem with statistics is that they lie.

My girlfriend is registered disabled but has no problems with the internet. This is because "registered disabled" covers a huge variety of things and only a certain number of them willhave anything to do with using computers.

[absalom]

Well the problem with statistics is that they lie.

My girlfriend is registered disabled but has no problems with the internet. This is because "registered disabled" covers a huge variety of things and only a certain number of them will have anything to do with using computers.

There are always people who form the groups measured in those statistics, Brian. Are they liars too ? You can argue that it's just statistics, but you can't argue against the dignity of a person, even if you consider the group they represent as a statistical lie.

[brian]

The UK Disability Discrimination Act (1995) defines a disabled person as someone with ‘a physical or mental impairment which has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on his (sic) ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities’ [1]. Disabilities are diverse and range in severity. They may be either visible or invisible, or both.

Disability in the UK

It is estimated that there are about 9.8 million people in the UK with some form of disability - one in seven of the population [3]. At the last count, in 1996, there were 750,000 wheelchair users in the UK [4]. In 2002-03, 19 per cent of men and 13 per cent of women reported having hearing difficulties, and in 2004 55,000 people were registered as deaf [5]. In 2003, 157,000 people were registered as blind [6]. In terms of hidden disabilities, there are about 1.8 million diabetics in the UK and over 350,000 people with epilepsy, for example [7].

Above from http://www.esrcsocietytoday.ac.uk/ESRCI ... geId=14975

So from the above we can see 750,000 people in wheelchairs, 1.8 million with diabetes etc

Thats all i was trying to point out. A gerneral statement assuming that everyone with a disability will have a "problem" using a computer is inaccurate.

"There are lies, dam lies and statistics"

I am not disputing that there are issues for people with "certain" disabilities using or creating sites with joomla.

I am merely stating that you cannot use a general statistic for the total number of people with "any" disability.

[absalom]

I am not disputing that there are issues for people with "certain" disabilities using or creating sites with joomla.

I am merely stating that you cannot use a general statistic for the total number of people with "any" disability.

I never said it was a total figure.. I gave a potential range / sliding scale.. between 16k and 32k... which is why it was generalised enough to drive my point home. When you're dealing with general population figures like census data, the best 'guess' isn't a single figure.. it's always between the bell curve for significance.

The fact ther grey / silver army is growing simply increasely the range from which the bell curve can be significant (as in, census data pegged disability it at 20% or 1/5 ) yet more people have grown older in that time since the census was done. This is why it's reasonably safe to conclude 20%+ failure rate in terms of disability.

[brian]

Lawrence you used the statistic to claim that those users "were in some way limited or disadvantaged by the way J! is designed from the ground up."

I just dont agree that you can draw that conclusion from the available statistics. (not accounting for the fact that the genuinely effected people would be under represented in the first place)

[NutriCoach]

Regardless of the total figures the original point I think is very valid. I have worked with PVA (Paralized Veterans of America)  teaching them to use computers. Some needed voice software such as dragon dictate to be able to use their computers. Blind people need sites that are able to be read with a reader that converts text to voice and may have trouble using a joomla based site. There are also dyslexics and others who need to hear a site rather than read it in the conventional manner. I am past my 60th birthday. I have a lot of difficulty learning how to use joomla because I grew up pre-computer and do not understand many of the terms and concepts used by those of you who are very computer literate. Currently I have a problem with getting members pictures to upload for their profiles. I have been over a month trying to figure out how to solve this problem. I have websites to assist type 2 diabetics. Most of my site visitors are less computer literate than I am. I get the original point and see it as very valid. Unless you want joomla to be just for an elite few who are already very computer savvy, more thought needs to be directed at making joomla more user friendly for the masses.The argument over the validity of the statistics is rather pointless and insensitive to the millions who are disabled.

Does joomla create a page easily read by type to voice?
Is there a built in feature to increase fonts for older vision impaired users?
Will Joomla work with voice activation software?

I am sure there are many other issues I have not thought of.

[Jenny]

Does joomla create a page easily read by type to voice?
Is there a built in feature to increase fonts for older vision impaired users?
Will Joomla work with voice activation software?

Yes all these things can be done with Joomla!

A lot of these things also count on the ability of the user to be able to use their assistive devices too .  While I am sure that Joomla! cannot be all things to all people, the ability to mold and customize it for an individuals needs and uses relatively easily, even for less than experienced users, makes it a step ahead of many content managment solutions.  I am sure in some people's minds it may be also a step behind in comparision.  It all depends on exactly what the specfic site in question needs and what the end goals of the site are.

[absalom]

Yes all these things can be done with Joomla!

Frontend, yes, with hacks and patches.

Forget about the backend.. which is where the shock and awe matters. As we have over 90,000 members using this software to manage/edit websites, and more than 25% of them may be disabled in some way (in light of what I'm talking about throughout this topic), the backend falls into a crying, miserable heap in terms of managing stuff. Remember, if they signed up here, they probably have some reason to discuss the management and use of J!, not merely concerned with the pretty output for someone else.

A lot of these things also count on the ability of the user to be able to use their assistive devices too .  While I am sure that Joomla! cannot be all things to all people, the ability to mold and customize it for an individuals needs and uses relatively easily, even for less than experienced users, makes it a step ahead of many content managment solutions. 

JS dependence, both in installation and in administration.. now replete with mootools.. means the backend really can't be moulded and customised relatively easily.

I am sure in some people's minds it may be also a step behind in comparision.  It all depends on exactly what the specfic site in question needs and what the end goals of the site are.

Try using the backend of Joomla! with a screen reader and without a mouse. It's a world of hurt.

The "specific site" mismoner is only frontend eye candy, not backend management.

[AmyStephen]

Lawrence -

A boss I had helped break me of always sharing my really great ideas on the organization's problems. He had one simple rule. We were allowed, and encouraged, even, to point out what was wrong. But, the catch was, our analysis required we fix the problem. Where it got scary was that he actually followed through with scheduling deadlines and holding meetings to hear about our progress! I am absolutely serious!

You hear what I am saying, yes?

In Walter's honor -- I hereby call you into action, Lawrence. Produce the code we need to stop the "crying, miserable heap" of a back-end we've got and fix this "world of hurt" we find ourselves in!

You are EXTREMELY sharp. You CAN do it! Now, DO IT! I recommend you *not* post on this topic without returning with the code needed to fix the problem you have identified. No one is stopping you from solving the problem you find interesting to solve - you are free to do so! (Eric Raymond, baby!).

But, it is extremely rude to judge someone else's freely offered work as not good enough and not to offer your own alternative in the form of working code to resolve the problem you obviously believe we have.

So, I hereby challenge you as a DEAR friend - let's see what you believe is good enough. Come on! Contribute!

Amy

[digitaldentist]

actually the ae12 hack is nearly completed code, if you look at the revisionist history, the ae hack has been around for a quite some time
yet the code has yet to make its way into joomla source

1. the core developers if using the statement reason (can not do to incompatibility)
could add 1 extra case statement to the effected lines of code
2. offer a simple installer option , where joomla asks (hey, want to be backwards compatible with bad html?
or be accessibility. CHOOSE 1

While I truly hold hope that Joomla 1.5 stable will be accessible, compliant, and logical, the latest SVN is not
I personally find it quite distasteful to have anyone ask for a solution when volumes of code have been written to
fix multiple security, accessibility, design, and presentation issues present in joomla as well as mambo.  Why any of these
projects code has not found its way into the main source is a question in and of itself.

If joomla truely is to be a "COMMUNITY" portal engine, then perhaps it should take contributions from the community
and actively encourage community participation in the development of the project versus treating development as a closeted
private corporation. It should embrace web standards, open ideas and thoughts, rather than as, googling the forums will prove
less than professional retort to  another persons suggestion

[AmyStephen]

DigitalDentist -

Do you want to contribute code?

Amy

[Jenny]

Actual the latest SVN can be accessible, compliant an logical. 

[absalom]

Actual the latest SVN can be accessible, compliant an logical. 

With moo?

Sure, screen reader technology has been advancing to negotiate Javascript, but it's not that good.

Taken from SVN 6713 (today's build):

Code: Select all

<noscript>!Warning! Javascript must be enabled for proper operation of the Administrator</noscript>

[digitaldentist]

DigitalDentist -

Do you want to contribute code?

Amy

Yes, however at present I can not.

[brian]

Great to see the new accessible template from the D&A team added to the cvs today. Really shows what can be achieved with the content overrides