Simplicity & usability

[westis]

Hi,

I have some questions regarding the plans of the future development of Joomla regarding usability. Let me start by stating the fact that I love Joomla and the flexibility it has with so many add-on components, modules and mambots.

But when I create web sites for others they either become dependent on me if they'd like to change something that can't be changed from the frontend or they have to overcome a substantial threshold in order to understand the logic of the Joomla backend administration. Such a simple thing as adding a menu item requires a complex procedure of creating an article that a menu item later can link to etc.

In order for me to continue using and learning Joomla I'd like a couple of questions answered regarding this usability.

How will Joomla look in for example version 1.1 and later? Will it be possible to create custom menus backend ("favourites"), like "Add menu item", "Add page" etc.? Will it be easier to add pages and menu items?

I've looked into CMS Made Simple and their backend admin is admirable for its simplicity. There is a menu called "Content" with the sub-menus Pages, File manager, Image manager and News. And there's another menu called "Layout" where you can edit the templates & stylesheets directly in the administration console. And still more, it's all CSS, which adds to flexibility!

Are the Joomla developers putting efforts towards having the backend look more like that? The sites I'm creating are not for big businesses, but rather organisations that need to be independent from me once I've delivered a site for them to start using. But the current logic of Joomla just don't allow them to.

Well, of course it's simple to add/edit news and edit pages that are already there. It's considerably more complicated to add a new page, not to talk about adding a new menu/sub-menu item. How do you people who are using Joomla in a similar way to me deal with that? How are customers developing their sites if they don't have any computer geek willing to climb the Joomla threshold?

I'm sure more people have similar problems. Joomla is just too good to make such basic things as adding pages and menu items so difficult.

Any opinions? What are the future plans?

[vavroom]

Thanks for your post.  You raise some very valid questions, and some of that has been talked about already.  Let me see if I can address your questions.

How will Joomla look in for example version 1.1 and later?

Joomla 1.1 will look relatively similar to what you are used to.  There have been some changes that increase usability, but not along the kind of processes you are talking about. 

Will it be possible to create custom menus backend ("favourites"), like "Add menu item", "Add page" etc.? Will it be easier to add pages and menu items?

I'm not sure I understand your idea here.  Could you elaborate?

In any case, it is probably not going to make it in 1.1, as we don't want to introduce yet more features that need to be tested and debugged.  A lot of these changes will need to happen, but unless there are "easy solutions", it might not be possible to make it happen until later versions.

I understand that 2.0 will see pretty much a complete redrawing of the back-end.  But we have to be patient for that

where you can edit the templates & stylesheets directly in the administration console. And still more, it's all CSS, which adds to flexibility!

You can do this in joomla presently.  Go to "site templates", select the appropriate template, then "edit css" or "edit html".  Not visual/wysiwyg design, but you can make quite a few changes that way.

Are the Joomla developers putting efforts towards having the backend look more like that?

Simplifying the processes is certainly high on my list.

But the current logic of Joomla just don't allow them to.

I've done sites for a lot of different groups. And while there is a bit of a learning curve, it's not *that* difficult.  Yes, Joomla has its idiosyncrasies, but all systems do. 

How do you people who are using Joomla in a similar way to me deal with that? How are customers developing their sites if they don't have any computer geek willing to climb the Joomla threshold?

You don't really need a geek once the site is setup properly.  How often do you *really* need to change menus?  Properly structured, your site shouldn't need constant tweaks that way.

But...  What it comes down to, is that you have to be ready to provide training to your customers.  Have a "cheat sheet", or simple how to step-by-step, provide that to your client after training. 

Believe me, I've worked with people who didn't know basics, such as turning the compute on and off, but with a bit of encouragement, you'd be surprised the number of people who get comfortable with it.

It also helps to setup the client as a backend manager rather than super admin.  Reduces the options they have in front of them, not so confusing.

What are the future plans?

Getting better and better

[westis]

Thanks a lot Vavroom for your quick response!

Will it be possible to create custom menus backend ("favourites"), like "Add menu item", "Add page" etc.? Will it be easier to add pages and menu items?

I'm not sure I understand your idea here.  Could you elaborate?

What I mean is simply shortcuts with more easily understandable names of the sub-menus, shortcuts to the three or four most common things that a site administrator is likely to need to do at some point. As you write further down, there shouldn't be much to do if the site is properly designed from the start. But as an organisation is changing, so might the web site to reflect this change. If that's a several months or years on, there might be a new site administrator that didn't get the training. Then if there's a shortcut menu, that person don't need to care about the rest of the menus. Even for a backend manager there are several menus that after all are difficult to understand if you don't have a step-by-step guide or understand the logic of Joomla.

Such a menu could be called "Most common tasks" or something similar and even though it's not necessary it would be good if the super administrator could choose what tasks should be linked to from such a menu.

where you can edit the templates & stylesheets directly in the administration console. And still more, it's all CSS, which adds to flexibility!

You can do this in joomla presently.  Go to "site templates", select the appropriate template, then "edit css" or "edit html".  Not visual/wysiwyg design, but you can make quite a few changes that way.

Oh yeah, sorry. I was too quick there to remember that, as I personally edit all the files in Dreamweaver anyway...

How do you people who are using Joomla in a similar way to me deal with that? How are customers developing their sites if they don't have any computer geek willing to climb the Joomla threshold?

You don't really need a geek once the site is setup properly.  How often do you *really* need to change menus?  Properly structured, your site shouldn't need constant tweaks that way.

But...  What it comes down to, is that you have to be ready to provide training to your customers.  Have a "cheat sheet", or simple how to step-by-step, provide that to your client after training. 

Believe me, I've worked with people who didn't know basics, such as turning the compute on and off, but with a bit of encouragement, you'd be surprised the number of people who get comfortable with it.

It also helps to setup the client as a backend manager rather than super admin.  Reduces the options they have in front of them, not so confusing.

Yes, I agree on that. But with a simpler backend that training and "cheat sheet" could be made way simpler too... :-)

What are the future plans?

Getting better and better

Hehe, that's good! I didn't mean to criticize in any way, I know you people are doing a terrific job making an already great CMS even better and I like the mentality of the Joomla community! Now I have a better idea of your plans as well as how I need to relate to these issues right now.

I'm glad you're putting priority also to usability for backend users, as that is the main issue I'm having difficulties with currently. Not for myself, I have a fairly good grip on how it works with menus, components, modules and all that. But for those people who are more or less only maintaining the sites later, but who still would like to make some changes once in awhile.

By the way, are there any "cheat sheets" available out there? Like simple and VERY easy step-by-step guides to the most common tasks, like adding an article or a menu item? Not that I want to use other people's work for my own benefit, but why invent the wheel again... ;-)

[eyezberg]

What would be really nice is an com_admin_config component, accessible only to superadmin, where you can configure all admin menus (including titles, placement and sub-menus) for each backend access group: managers see only menus named X Y Z, with sub-menus abc, de, fgh and so on..
That would make it possible to hide everything from everybody so nothing gets messed with, and then really just provide (maybe in cpanel) the 3,4,5.. items needed: new content item and upload media for basic content management for example. No need for anything else (maybe a "Help" link to' ..)

[vavroom]

Duly noted Joe

[stingrey]

What would be really nice is an com_admin_config component, accessible only to superadmin, where you can configure all admin menus (including titles, placement and sub-menus) for each backend access group: managers see only menus named X Y Z, with sub-menus abc, de, fgh and so on..
That would make it possible to hide everything from everybody so nothing gets messed with, and then really just provide (maybe in cpanel) the 3,4,5.. items needed: new content item and upload media for basic content management for example. No need for anything else (maybe a "Help" link to' ..)

This is something that is best handled once a more ACL system is introduced in 1.2 and 1.3


However, in 1.1 the dropdown menu is now just a module (allowing unpublishing) and thus replacement with your own module.

So you could create an admin only component (useable by only superadmins) that would allowing configuration of the dropdown module to suit your needs (would have to be a new custom module to do this.
However, this would not change for example the fact that Global Configuration is accessible only by the Super Admin, as this is an acl issue.


What I mean is that you could create a component that could change the cometic layout of the dropdown menu.

[eyezberg]

Rey,
this is exactly what I was thinking of! If my PHP ever gets up to speed to code this, I'll be happy