SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Discuss the integration of SMF here.
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SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by Orstio » Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:50 am

The official announcement can be read here:

http://www.simplemachines.org/community ... 2#p1174172

Please also take the time to read the email exchange with the FSF in the blog post here:

http://www.simplemachines.org/community ... pic=184557
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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by robbievk » Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:01 am

jeez...

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by Livebox » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:10 am

Still want to use the Bridge. But when this is not possible with Joomla! Then I maybe have to reconsider to take a look at an other CMS system. Really to bad I liked the Combo Joomla! and SMF. This is not a great step for the future. :'(
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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by Oldiesmann » Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:04 pm

It's sad that it's had to come to this, but we don't really have any other option short of changing our license to GPL, which is not going to happen - discontinuing the bridge is a lot easier than completely changing our license anyway.
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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by CP » Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:53 pm

And I was considering this .... Oh well, time to start hunting a new CMS that bridges nicely with either SMF or vB and free with no licensing issues, dang it!    >:(

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by dukeofgaming » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:21 am

Are you happy Joomla devs? OSM/FSF people?, YOU JUST KILLED A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR COMMUNITY  >:( , and no, im not interested in other bridges unless they're straight-forward installations, with at least the same functionality, regularly updated and perfectly supported [see what you got rid of?].

This license interpretation does nothing but harm to your users and devs who have been enriching and making popular this CMS... I don't know wheres the benefit, not even the point of doing this.

Can someone explain?, I feel the same with or without GPL extentions... if you guys rule out non GPL, that means less extentions, doesn't it?.
Last edited by dukeofgaming on Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by storman » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:00 pm

YOU JUST KILLED A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR COMMUNITY
That includes me. Every website I build is a Joomla/SMF integration.

After spending literally years learning the ins and outs of combining the two, I may now have to put that behind me and choose another CMS. Basically this is a massive waste of effort for me.

I understand the issues but it still sucks  :-\

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by Murgen » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:53 pm

storman wrote:
YOU JUST KILLED A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR COMMUNITY
That includes me. Every website I build is a Joomla/SMF integration.

After spending literally years learning the ins and outs of combining the two, I may now have to put that behind me and choose another CMS. Basically this is a massive waste of effort for me.

I understand the issues but it still sucks  :-\
Same here.
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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by Livebox » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:29 pm

Lets hope there comes a sollution ;)
Last edited by Livebox on Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by al0000 » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:09 am

dukeofgaming wrote: Are you happy Joomla devs? OSM/FSF people?, YOU JUST KILLED A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR COMMUNITY  >:( , and no, im not interested in other bridges unless they're straight-forward installations, with at least the same functionality, regularly updated and perfectly supported [see what you got rid of?].

This license interpretation does nothing but harm to your users and devs who have been enriching and making popular this CMS... I don't know wheres the benefit, not even the point of doing this.

Can someone explain?, I feel the same with or without GPL extentions... if you guys rule out non GPL, that means less extentions, doesn't it?.
Same...
Very disappointed :(

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by iGate » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:27 pm

would this be solved if the bridge was distributed under GPL?

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by AzzX » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:17 pm

iGate wrote: would this be solved if the bridge was distributed under GPL?
Unfortunately no because SMF itself isn't distributed under that license.

Its a non issue for other gpl content management systems though.
Read these to get an understanding of the situation:
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,194762.0.html
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,194430.0.html
http://www.simplemachines.org/community ... =184557.80

phpbb2 & 3 is the best option for a fully featured and integrated forum with Joomla as it stands right now, so its not all doom and gloom.

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by Digital Island » Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:34 am

I am really lost on this legal issue, it is far beyond my comprehension
but my understanding is that I could not continue using the both together with the bridge.
this is a shame both are really good and I like to have them combined,
any way we need to look forward. sniff!
but I still want a way to have the members join together in both interface. (like this site does)
hope some one can make profit of this situation or at least solve this non understand ed (speaking for myself) issue about licensing.
any way hope all this dispositions can take us to new freedom
don't you agree?
I do not know...
best wishes
Last edited by Digital Island on Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by risa » Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:29 am

too bad :(

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by Sundog_AK » Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:01 am

I like all the above posters am stunned with all this back and forth between SMF and Joomla (i.e., the earlier bridge issue with 1.5). I originally learned of this today at the SMF website on their front page news.  I had been away for several months but it is not difficult to see that the licensing issue has been a huge topic of debate independent of SMF.  Both programs are great (along with Menalto Gallery 2) and I have donated to all three (not enough for the developers to live in Hawaii or anything  :)).  I have read most of the debate over at SMF and here at the Joomla end and I think it all can be summed up as both groups have got to a "polarized" position and are leaving the end users in the lurch. 

I have seen some comments in other threads that are to the effect of "use something other than Joomla" or "use something other than SMF".  Both comments ignore that end users also have a time investment/ learning curve in these programs as well.  Plus they are both excellent programs, so why wouldn't an end user want a workable bridge?  I am not a programmer, nor a lawyer which it seems is needed these days around this licensing issue, but I have some opinions as to how it got to this point, which I will not rehash here.  I do not have a lot of posts simply because most of my newbie type questions needed to build a small family web site were asked/answered by others..using the ...err..SMF/Joomla forums.  Yes, I could move the SMF forum to a standalone position in my web site, but again, the point was to make it simple without 4 different login codes (SMF/Gallery/Joomla/phpGED).  Switching to another forum (e.g., phBBB, VBulletin, etc.) also seems to be a bit premature since it seems that there would be similar bridge issues (or lack of a bridge at all) for each of the workable alternatives.

I have been fiddling around with Joomla 1.5 hoping to transition my site over from 1.12, but with all this licensing debate, I am somewhat reluctant to spend any time on it until the bridge/3rd party developer license issues are ironed out.  I am just one person with just a small web site, so I imagine my opinions/ pleas do not carry much weight.  However, I do hope that both parties can somehow figure out a way to resolve this issue since both programs a great at what they do.

Cheers,
Chris

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by mikehamel » Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:54 pm

This is absurd.  It seems that these two projects have relatively similar goals and it seems to me that there should be some effort to cultivate these relationships.  Having these two pieces of software that work well together is what's important, closing the project off from great opportunities will likely have negative long-term effects.  The reality is people are going to deal with the licensing issue in different ways, and I think that is okay, and long as the underlying goals and beliefs are similar.  Stubborn projects may eventually go extinct, as users will move to the competitors who aren't so closed off.

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by risa » Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:17 am

mikehamel wrote: This is absurd.  It seems that these two projects have relatively similar goals and it seems to me that there should be some effort to cultivate these relationships.  Having these two pieces of software that work well together is what's important, closing the project off from great opportunities will likely have negative long-term effects.  The reality is people are going to deal with the licensing issue in different ways, and I think that is okay, and long as the underlying goals and beliefs are similar.  Stubborn projects may eventually go extinct, as users will move to the competitors who aren't so closed off.
Blame it on "the new" GPL liscence. I really think open source matters. if only they could change the lisence then everything would be settled but it know it wont be easy T_T

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by Asphyx » Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:46 pm

Are you happy Joomla devs? OSM/FSF people?, YOU JUST KILLED A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR COMMUNITY 
Not really Simple Machines Killed it...

They refuse to change their license...
Joomla also can't change their license but that is because they don't own all the code...
SMF does own all of it's code!

If anyone is a bad guy for not changing their license then both are equally guilty!

But there is one difference....
Joomla is willing to work with SMF to make a compliant bridge.
SMF doesn't seem to be interested yet...

So if you really must cast blame blame the one who is truly being inflexible when they can be instead of the one who is inflexable because they can't be flexible they don't own the codes and have the right to be.

SMF can use any license they want. They own 100% of their code...
Joomla can only use GPL because they used GPL programs from other developers to create Joomla!

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by mikehamel » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:04 pm

There seems to be conflicting information here.  Is it really possible to make a compliant bridge?  I thought others had mentioned that this wasn't possible since SMF itself is not compliant?  I understand that there has been GPL controversy lately, but can anyone explain how this is effecting Joomla!/SMF, I ask this because people seem to be saying it's Joomla's interpretation of the GPL, and maybe not the typical interpretation?

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by AmyStephen » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:21 pm

It has been posted on both the SMF and Joomla! forums that the teams *are* working together, again, to resolve this issue.  Brad has been in contact with a few SMF members, as have a few other Joomla! core team members.

MikeHamel - yes, a bridge can be built in a way that is compliant with both SMF's and Joomla!'s license. It is not required that SMF be GPL-compliant; only that the bridge to be GPL-compliant. As it luck would have it  :) the individual from the FSF who was emailing with SMF (the email correspondence that is published with the announcement) was in Oregon when Louis and Rob were there for the OSCON. Louis reported that they were able to talk to him about ideas to build compliance for bridges into non-GPL compliant environments. So, there are ideas on how to do this properly, now.

The GPL has the same terms regardless of who uses it; it's not really an "interpretation" issue. Some choose to ignore infractions to their license. Joomla! is working towards compliance with the GPL. A license does you no good if you don't enforce it.

Honestly, in the end, this will be better for SMF and any non-GPL compliant application. Developers will not need Joomla!'s "word" that they won't seek compliance of their license - there will *be* compliance.

Getting there is obviously a bit messy - but being there will be worth it. As I already said, we can rest assured - both SMF and Joomla! are working together, again, and I am completely confident this will be resolved.

Amy :)

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by mikehamel » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:34 pm

Great news, and thanks for the info Amy!  I'm really glad that they are in fact working together, it really makes me feel better about the direction of the project and their committment to ensuring that the best reasonable products are available for use.  I believe that maintaining this approach makes Joomla! much more valuable to users.

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by Asphyx » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:42 pm

You can bridge DATA between incompatibly licensed programs not code!

All code used in a GPL program must be GPL code or compatible with the GPL license.

This means you can easily bridge two project and the only trick is to not use any of the proprietary code in doing so.
That means writing GPL code specifically to share and manipulate the data without using the proprietary code versions to do so.

It is just as much a violation of the license to facilitate a license violation by a Proprietary work as it is to violate the license directly AS a proprietary work.

If you want an example of how this works look at the current crop of DRM removal software that seems to get a cease and desist order as soon as someone finds out about it.
While the user who buys the DRM protected work has a right to copy it and fair use to even use just portions of it for their own personal use the fact that it is the user who does the actual copying isn't important. The makers of the DRM removal tools are put out of business because they help facilitate license violations by making the tool that allows it to happen...

A Bridge (as they currently work) is essentially a DRM removal tool.
It violates the license because it facilitates the breaking of the GPL in that it allows proprietary programs to incorporate parts of the GPL program in it's work.

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by AmyStephen » Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:06 pm

mikehamel wrote: Great news, and thanks for the info Amy!  I'm really glad that they are in fact working together, it really makes me feel better about the direction of the project and their committment to ensuring that the best reasonable products are available for use.  I believe that maintaining this approach makes Joomla! much more valuable to users.
No problem, Mike. Both SMF and Joomla! have strong commitment to their users; that is exactly why this has always been a good partnership. This is a difficult transition and I do understand the responses - no one wants to be in violation of a license, for crying out loud, especially for software given away at no charge. That is not difficult to appreciate that stance!

It's best to get it sorted out and that is taking place. There are very smart people who care on both teams and I wish them all the best as they work on this.

Amy :)

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by .Joel » Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:48 pm

Asphyx wrote:
Are you happy Joomla devs? OSM/FSF people?, YOU JUST KILLED A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR COMMUNITY 
Not really Simple Machines Killed it...

They refuse to change their license...
Joomla also can't change their license but that is because they don't own all the code...
SMF does own all of it's code!

If anyone is a bad guy for not changing their license then both are equally guilty!

But there is one difference....
Joomla is willing to work with SMF to make a compliant bridge.
SMF doesn't seem to be interested yet...

So if you really must cast blame blame the one who is truly being inflexible when they can be instead of the one who is inflexable because they can't be flexible they don't own the codes and have the right to be.

SMF can use any license they want. They own 100% of their code...
Joomla can only use GPL because they used GPL programs from other developers to create Joomla!
Oh get out of here, I am sick of hearing this ROT!  Quite simply, it is Joomla that has made the change, NOT everybody else.  Get too grips with it.  What all of a sudden every 3pd conspired at once... no... our favourite 3pd for Joomla is also gone http://www.reviewsforjoomla.com unfortunately.

This bridge was an excellent way too get two excellent pieces of software working together.  SMF already went to the effort of developing a bridge for Joomla, it should be Joomla who for breaking the compatability of the relationship invest the time and effort in fixing and restructuring it.

I love how Joomla change something, and now it is the rest of the worlds fault.  [mod edit: removed inappropriate comment directed at other members - WRobinson]

There are hundreds, maybe thousands but not sure on that one that relied on this bridge.  And it isn't SMF's fault all of a sudden this has happened.  Reality check.

Anyway, as it stands many people are now holding back any further migrations too Joomla.  And once what was an amazing CMS is now looking like it will be moving into the dark ages.  How long before Joomla decides to throw a few more interpretations into the GPL i wonder to suit an agenda.

This bridge was amazing, and if anything there should be a big damn THANKYOU too the SMF team who maintained it and helped so many users out.  I guess people just can't show gratitude from the other side of the fence.

Regards,

.Joel
Last edited by Wendy on Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by Asphyx » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:05 pm

Would you like me to challenge you again to cite the change in the license Joel or is simply the threat of the challenge enough to make you run away for another week like you did last time I asked you to document the change you insist has occurred but couldn't cite?

Please show me what is different about the Joomla license that constitutes a change?
If you can't take your FUD somewhere else!

You obviously don't have a clue about the situation and are just weekly whining.

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by mikehamel » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:48 pm

I think the important point is that it is amazing that the open-source model actually works, but it takes a lot of work and it will take serious thinking and compromise for continued growth.  I conducted research on open source in the public sector, and my fear is that these are the issues that are going to prevent software, such as Joomla!, from growing further, particularly into major public and private organizations.  Not only do large orgs give credibility to open source software, but they also have resources to greatly improve the software.  For instance, a government organization, from a small town to a federal agency, might find it worthwhile to create a module to meet a certain need, that could then be shared with the community.  Now I think we all want to keep this reciprocity alive, but we need to find some way to ensure that the best available components are compatible.  To implement this kind of software in a large, or critical organization, you need to be sure that it works, will continue to work, and has a support community.

I'm getting a bit off topic, but I think we're all on the same team here, and we all want to find the best way to ensure that the community thrives, for idealogical reasons and because we're invested in this.

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by dukeofgaming » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:02 am

AmyStephen wrote: It has been posted on both the SMF and Joomla! forums that the teams *are* working together, again, to resolve this issue.  Brad has been in contact with a few SMF members, as have a few other Joomla! core team members.
Do you have a link to that Amy?, such great news, thanks!.

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by AmyStephen » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:17 pm

Hey Duke -

Just follow the threads that Orstio provided - work your way through the comments made - and you'll see it discussed. The second thread was locked at page 9 and it was reconfirmed at the end by Thantos. There's another thread in SMF with a dramatic title where it's discussed, as well.

Let's hope for the best!
Amy :)

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by shawn122 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:49 pm

hmmm...the bridge still works with mambo should anyone be interested

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Re: SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

Post by AmyStephen » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:37 pm

shawn122 wrote: hmmm...the bridge still works with mambo should anyone be interested
Yes, Shawn, the official SMF announcement for discontinuing the SMF Joomla! bridge listed Mambo as an option. Orstio linked to the announcement in the first post of this thread. Even so, there are some who want to stick with Joomla! and they are welcome to work on solutions together here in the Joomla! forums.

You've been gone since January. Are you back with Mambo? Or, have you just been inactive? It's nice to see you, either way!

Amy :)


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