Accessible Joomla integration into core.

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ennsol
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Accessible Joomla integration into core.

Post by ennsol » Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:30 pm

As A8J is now up-to-date with 1.0.11 can anyone tell me why its not pulled into the core and then 1.0.12 is release fully accessible?

OK 1.5 is out there but a secure stablke and accessible CMS - on the existing branch - will take a fair while to be outmoded and (hopefuly - ducks the flying pig :-)) 1.5 accessibility may move by th time the 1.0.x branch reaches its 'best before' date.

There seems a real issue getting useful (if not essential) code pulled into the core if it has not be coded by one of the core devs - thought this was open source land here - am I on my own thinking such irreverent thoughts? From what I read, Linux seems to have a core team in 'qc/qa' mode so they can pull any code that is useful - judging by that success there seems mileage in adopting similar tactics and strategies for Joomla.  Ok end of heresy - any other heretics out there?
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Last edited by Jenny on Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Accessible Joomla integration into core.

Post by absalom » Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:32 am

Unfortunately, your comments about heretics may be right..

D&A has been pushing the core to get its act in order for a while now..
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Re: Accessible Joomla integration into core.

Post by studio814 » Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:39 am

I also couldn't agree more.. to a point.

I understand why these accessibility modifications wouldn't be implemented into the 1.0 series due to compatibility with the large amount of templates and components that exist nowadays however with the upcoming 1.5 series there is now a chance to take accessibility and usability and integrate it into the Joomla core.

I can only hope that once 1.5 reaches beta that tables will NOT be used for layout purposes. As a serious supporter of accessibility and usability  standards and semantic markup, I feel without question that providing this into the Joomla core is not only a good idea but simply a MUST.

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Re: Accessible Joomla integration into core.

Post by MarkV » Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:09 pm

I see it as a MUST as well. With so many user Joomla! can create such a big step forward.
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Re: Accessible Joomla integration into core.

Post by studio814 » Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:05 am

Now that all the output in 1.5 is controlled via component/module templates this problem is starting to become less of a concern to me. Thanks Joomla!

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Re: Accessible Joomla integration into core.

Post by absalom » Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:19 am

studio814 wrote: Now that all the output in 1.5 is controlled via component/module templates this problem is starting to become less of a concern to me. Thanks Joomla!
It's still a problem. Suffice to say, that even with the MVC model currently deployed in 1.5, "hacks" and "accessibility patches" will still be needed.

Let me illustrate this to you..

1 ) You download 1.5 Stable (whenever that release is)
2 ) You don't like one of the views in the way it creates output, so you modify that view
3 ) A maintainence release comes out - 1.5.0.1.
4 ) You yet again have to modify the same view the same way
5 ) Another maintainence release comes out - 1.5.0.2
6 ) You again modify the view
7 ) A major release is then released - 1.5.1.0
8 ) Guess what ? Again you have to modify the view..

Starting to feel irritated by the amount of times you have to modify the view ?

(Considering I've been doing this very thing via SVN for each iterative release of 1.5, you can see where the version control headache is)

Edit: typos
Last edited by absalom on Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Accessible Joomla integration into core.

Post by eyezberg » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:42 am

If there is no functionality change (1.5 stable), then just keep your view, it wouldn't be overwriten by maintainance releases..?
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Re: Accessible Joomla integration into core.

Post by absalom » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:07 am

eyezberg wrote: If there is no functionality change (1.5 stable), then just keep your view, it wouldn't be overwriten by maintainance releases..?
Nope. The MVC structures I've been tracking do have some level of CMP depedence, unfortunately, so they are open to having changes in the model affect the overall view. It also doesn't solve the problem of making all parts of J! accessible, which is one of the stated aims per the Joomla Mission Statement regarding D&A/U&A.
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Re: Accessible Joomla integration into core.

Post by Hackwar » Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:44 pm

And thats again where you are wrong. The views are placed in the template folder and wouldn't be touched by any updates. Since an update to a view would mean that there was an error in it, you most likely would have worked around the error and allready fixed it in your modified view or you would have to edit it anyway. Either way, your view in the template folder is still the one thats chosen.
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Re: Accessible Joomla integration into core.

Post by absalom » Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:41 pm

Hackwar wrote: And thats again where you are wrong. The views are placed in the template folder and wouldn't be touched by any updates. Since an update to a view would mean that there was an error in it, you most likely would have worked around the error and allready fixed it in your modified view or you would have to edit it anyway. Either way, your view in the template folder is still the one thats chosen.
Please see this post: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... 2.html#new for why it still doesn't work..
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Re: Accessible Joomla integration into core.

Post by pollen8 » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:45 am

2 ) You don't like one of the views in the way it creates output, so you modify that view
3 ) A maintainence release comes out - 1.5.0.1.
4 ) You yet again have to modify the same view the same way
hehe this *shoudn't* happen - the controller should pass the complete model to the view to render. Display logic for the model would then show what it wanted.

*However*. this most certainly has *not* been the case in the 1.0.x series. In using html.php files in my templates, I've been stung a number of times when a security update has changed the variables passed to the display function. This is really annoying!

I do like the idea of overriding views from within the template but Q&A need to ensure that the interface between the controller and the view remains the same.

Possibly the easiest way to do this is to pass a $params object or a $list which the controller can then add extra info to without chaning the interface
aka

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Re: Accessible Joomla integration into core.

Post by absalom » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:31 pm

pollen8 wrote: *However*. this most certainly has *not* been the case in the 1.0.x series. In using html.php files in my templates, I've been stung a number of times when a security update has changed the variables passed to the display function. This is really annoying!
Now you understand why we need a better design for 1.5.
pollen8 wrote: I do like the idea of overriding views from within the template but Q&A need to ensure that the interface between the controller and the view remains the same.

Possibly the easiest way to do this is to pass a $params object or a $list which the controller can then add extra info to without chaning the interface
From where I stand, it's not overriding the views as such (there are serious limitations on the override hack for third party development, for instance). It's just getting a template engine that works and meets the needs of what D&A has built up as a collective knowledgebase. Initial scope put that at pT but there's a swag more PHP based templating engines out there. Sooner or later, we should find something that works..
Last edited by absalom on Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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