Unpublished extension

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amoryw
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Re: Unpublished extension

Postby amoryw » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:00 pm

jk1 wrote:I think the only way to find out if that would revoke the JED team's decision is to use their ticket system for discussion and hope for a response.


Great but I thought I could get this answer here because they are going to answer me in 1 month

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Re: Unpublished extension

Postby Webdongle » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:59 am

As a user I wouldn't want to see any free extension in jed that stopped working after a given time.

imho any product that has a defined end date of free use is not GPL compliant because permission to run it is only granted for a limited amount of time. The GPL clearly states 'unlimited permission'
This License explicitly affirms your unlimited permission to run the unmodified Program.


A free version that has less features is not a limited version it just less developed than the paid version. But a version that is free for a specific time is limited.

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Re: Unpublished extension

Postby Vimes » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:02 am

Webdongle wrote:As a user I wouldn't want to see any free extension in jed that stopped working after a given time.

imho any product that has a defined end date of free use is not GPL compliant because permission to run it is only granted for a limited amount of time.


You're forgetting anything that's SaaS.

If you use any service ( Spotify, eg ) and no longer pay your bill, the software on your phone/pc technically remains working but the remote service will no longer provide you with music and the software is useless. The local software in that case could well be released within the spirit and rule of the GPL.
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Re: Unpublished extension

Postby Webdongle » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:38 am

I get your point but that is different because the free software on the phone is not prevented from working ... the service that it connects to stops responding. That is different from providing something free for a limited period then charging.

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Re: Unpublished extension

Postby Vimes » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:55 am

Yebbut, you said

As a user I wouldn't want to see any free extension in jed that stopped working after a given time.


This effectively would ban any software that is SaaS and offers a free trial that ends. Given that that software technically would be compliant with the GPL, then we wouldn't really be in the right to forbit it's inclusion. That creates a slippery slope and you and I both know where those lead.

I, personally, am not guilty of this btw, however SaaS is the go-to model for virtually any new business nowadays and barring a SaaS based plugin from the JED would be a serious case of cutting our noses off to spite our faces.

And, whether you ( the generic you, not you in particular ) dislike subscription models or not, they're the ONLY way we developers can actually build long-term products, and that's with stable income streams. I'm slowly moving Jomres over to be a subscription product (whilst maintaining the spirit of the GPL, I might add) because the lumpy one-off sales income stream in GPL sales is absolutely brutal in the current shrunking Joomla marketplace.

Blocking some companies from the JED because they offer free trials would be a massive blow to anybody who wants to build a new business within the Joomla-ecosphere.
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Re: Unpublished extension

Postby Webdongle » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:26 pm

I see the point you make. There must be balance between amateur and professional use of Joomla ... it's a symbiotic relationship. In order for Joomla to survive it needs professionals to help develop it (and extensions) and in order for it to remain free for amateurs the amateurs need to add to it.

The lack of quality free extensions is making it difficult for hobbyists to build flexible sites. With 'free for limited time' extensions more and more hobbyists sites will turn to wp.

There needs to be a business model that is a compromise !

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Re: Unpublished extension

Postby mandville » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:51 pm

How about a dedicated trial category for jed
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Re: Unpublished extension

Postby Vimes » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:27 pm

Webdongle wrote:The lack of quality free extensions is making it difficult for hobbyists to build flexible sites. With 'free for limited time' extensions more and more hobbyists sites will turn to wp.


Dig around WP, any plugin of any value is almost always going to have an upsell component to it. It's how great software gets paid for.

As OS users, we need to make sure that we drum into user's heads that paid isn't better simply because it's paid for, but it's better because it's actively developed and supported, that bugs are fixed and vulnerabilities patched. With amature software, you often get what you paid for, so we need to help people to stop seeing paid for software as a drain on the ecosystem and instead value the bonuses they bring.

Webdongle wrote:There needs to be a business model that is a compromise !


You know how long I've been doing this, so believe me when I say that there are two models that work.

1. Either pay for the software on a one-off basis ( and include support in that too, so maybe two tiered model), or
2. Pay for it in installments ( Subscription )
3. Donations ( don't make me laugh ).

Any other models are just wishful thinking/pie in the sky.

As a low volume, highly specialised product I cannot rely on a daily income to keep the lights on. There simply aren't enough people who want a product like mine, therefore I'm having to switch gradually over to a subscription model. Currently it's a combination of the two, a free Core ( which is perfectly functional in it's own right) then you can either choose a one-off license which is valid for 6 months or a free trial which automaticallys switches over to a subscription to access plugins and support. Again, these are all within the spirit of the GPL, so these plans will be abused :(

mandville wrote:How about a dedicated trial category for jed


Depending on how it's handled, that could be good or bad.

Handled badly, it would be the equivalent of the naughty corner for extensions.

They wouldn't be found in the user's target category, traffic would dry up ( even worse than it is already ) and there would be no motivation ( either financial or otherwise ) to maintain it. Back to the abandoned projects graveyard for them.

Handled well, you could easily turn the free trial into a plus point for an extension.

One of the gripes I hear about Joomla is how the majority of the extensions are paid for products. Of course, this is forgetting that fact that on balance Joomla extensions line for line are probably the best products available for any free and OS CMS in the world. Why not ( I hesitate to use the word ) spin it to show that the developers have so much faith in their product that they're willing to let you give it a go before you buy? Remember, trial licenses are by far and away the best way you can experiment with an extension before you buy it, so instead of consigning the extension into the bad products box, why not highlight the fact that you can get a free trial first?

A nice big flag on the extension description page would be a good place to start, even a menu option (a la featured extensions) in the homepage for products that offer free trials. Instead of seeing those free trials as a curse, you could see them as the blessing they are. With a unique menu option on the homepage of the JED you'd quickly have developers rushing to figure out a way of releasing their code with free trials, which would be a win/win for everybody because rather than buying some dodgy code than having to hack it to make it work for you, you'd be able to give it a test drive first.
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Re: Unpublished extension

Postby Webdongle » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:29 pm

That's a good idea but would there need to be a sub category structure in it that match the main structure ? Otherwise users looking for a specific type would need to trawl through non relative extensions.

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Re: Unpublished extension

Postby Webdongle » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:03 pm

so we need to help people to stop seeing paid for software as a drain on the ecosystem and instead value the bonuses they bring
Problem being that there a lot of amateur users that put into Joomla but can't afford to buy extensions.

imho too many extension developers rely heavily on income generated by sales of extensions in JED. They should (again a personal opinion) use other methods to sell their product. JED is not a selling platform for developers it is a resource for users of Joomla. Inclusion of an extension is a Privilege not a right but many developers appear to be under the impression that they have a right to promote their paid extensions by demanding to be included in JED.

Many of us who give our time freely and cant afford paid extensions feel betrayed when (some) devs use lack of sales as an excuse to (intentionally or unintentionally) turn JED into a sales platform. When those developers stop making JED a major part of their sales strategy then perhaps they will stop griping when their extension is rejected.

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Re: Unpublished extension

Postby Vimes » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:28 pm

Webdongle wrote:Many of us who give our time freely and cant afford paid extensions feel betrayed when (some) devs use lack of sales as an excuse to (intentionally or unintentionally) turn JED into a sales platform. When those developers stop making JED a major part of their sales strategy then perhaps they will stop griping when their extension is rejected.


I've already explained that I've tried over many, many years to find an equitable solution to the "keep a roof over my head while doing what I love most, which is coding" problem. The only solution that works is to ask people to pay for the software. Absolutely nothing else does.

I don't know what you do for a living, I've never thought to ask and tbh it's none of my business. I can, however, tell you that Joomla and Jomres are my livlihood. I've staked everything on my software. If it doesn't do what it says on the tin, I starve. It's as simple as that.

Therefore I, and developers like me who bring users to Joomla through providing great software, need a platform on which to market our software. That's what the JED is. Always has been, always will be. Seeing it as a purely "user" platform is an own goal, if you push professional developers away you will end up with shoddy and insecure code and that will drive people further away.


This is what upsets me about threads like this. The user asked a question and they got the third degree regarding the suitability of their product. What a bass-ackward approach that was. We should have been welcoming them with open arms and instead they were treated as if they were trying to stitch people up. That's not how you draw new developers into the project!
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Re: Unpublished extension

Postby Webdongle » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:53 pm

Vimes wrote:...

I've already explained that I've tried over many, many years to find an equitable solution to the "keep a roof over my head while doing what I love most, which is coding" problem. The only solution that works is to ask people to pay for the software. Absolutely nothing else does.

I don't know what you do for a living, I've never thought to ask and tbh it's none of my business. I can, however, tell you that Joomla and Jomres are my livlihood. I've staked everything on my software. If it doesn't do what it says on the tin, I starve. It's as simple as that.
I have nothing against people making money ... that's not the issue. The issue is that jed isn't a sales platform ... it's a resource for Joomla users.

If a dev relies so heavily on jed that they can't make a living if their extensions aren't in jed ... then they have the wrong attitude about jed.

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Re: Unpublished extension

Postby sozzled » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:11 pm

This topic has changed—or it's been hijacked—from its original purpose which was to enquire about why a particular extension was removed from being listed on the JED; it has been "repurposed" into a discussion about whether trial "services" should be allowed and, further, into a discussion about the problems confronting Joomla extension developers who want to advertise extensions for free and the gain—financial or otherwise—that they may derive from that activity.

We've come a long way from the original purpose of this topic but, even so, some of the general matters that have been recently debated are worth discussing.

I don't want to comment on whether there should be an allowance made, or a separate category defined for, "trial software" or trial services. I would, however, like to comment on the overall purposes of the JED.

I agree that, for some people, the JED is not about being solely a sales platform. The JED, however, is a marketplace where products may be obtained for free and for money. In my opinion, the "market" exists, among other things, as an opportunity for extension developers to showcase their goods.

I understand why some people would feel sympathetic towards Webdongle's view:
Webdongle wrote:Many of us who give our time freely and can't afford paid extensions feel betrayed when (some) devs use lack of sales as an excuse to (intentionally or unintentionally) turn JED into a sales platform. When those developers stop making JED a major part of their sales strategy then perhaps they will stop griping when their extension is rejected.
On the other hand, as a freelance extension developer myself, I also feel more disappointed that the overwhelming majority of Joomla users obtain extensions at no financial cost to themselves and believe they have no obligation to assist developers—people, like me, who have to bear all the costs to bring our products to market—and they do not say "thank you" or offer any kind of feedback, good or bad, by way of using the JED review system.

I don't understand the reasoning that a "lack of sales" might "turn [the] JED into a sales platform". The JED is one place where people can advertise and other people can obtain Joomla software; it so happens that it's probably the premier place where people can undertake that activity. From the end user's perspective, the JED is that place where people can have some confidence that software has been vetted in terms of licensing, branding, compatibility, automatic update availability, etc. These are the obligations that developers must undertake so that their products can be listed on the JED and there are costs associated with meeting those obligations. I offered a [somewhat personal] perspective on these issues in viewtopic.php?f=48&t=956257

Perhaps the JED might become more of a showcase for developers to offer more freeware if end users were more forthcoming and provided developers some less tangible support by way of using the review system instead of thanklessly siphoning freeware from our servers. If end users treated developers as people instead of as unlimited resources then, perhaps, the JED might return to the original purposes for which it was established. 8)
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