DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

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DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by mlipscomb » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:11 am

The following Terms of Use is planned to replace the current Terms of Service on the JED. This Terms of Use has a counterpart entitled the "Directory Guidelines" that will be posted separately. While the Terms of Use will be a "static" document (should not be changed often at all) the Directory Guidelines will provided a structured method to changes and improvements based on the needs of the community, developers, the JED Team and the project leadership.

If you have comments or feedback on this, please note the portion # (i.e., C.1 - General Site Usage)
The Joomla Extensions Directory is a free service provided for the Joomla community under the oversight of the Community Leadership Team (CLT). This terms of use page describes the terms upon which you may access and use the Directory. By using the Directory, you affirm that you have read and accept all of the following terms and conditions, which may be updated by the CLT or it's appointees from time to time with notice being posted via an official blog. You must also agree the Directory Guidelines when submitting listings, ratings, comments, reviews or reports.

The CLT and Open Source Matters (OSM) may offer different levels of participation and benefits related to the Directory. Some of these enhanced levels may include a cost. Levels that do include a cost are provided on an opt-in basis. Basic listings in the JED will always be free. The CLT has the right, in its sole discretion, to set and revise rules concerning what benefits are offered to each level of participants. Your continued use of the Joomla Extensions Directory constitutes your agreement to be bound by the rules as modified.

By participating on this site, your activities must also be in compliance with the Community Code of Conduct.

A - Ownership of Copyrights

You acknowledge that Open Source Matters or its content providers, own the copyright to the materials and reviews in the Directory unless otherwise expressly indicated. You agree not to copy, reproduce, download, disseminate, scrape, publish, or transfer content in any form or by any means, except with our prior written permission. You further agree not to collect any information from the Directory using automated means (e.g., spiders or scraping).

B - Submissions

By providing content for the Directory, you grant OSM and the Joomla Project a worldwide, irrevocable, royalty-free, non-exclusive license to reproduce, edit, publish, translate, and distribute the content in any medium whatsoever. You represent and warrant that: (a) you are the author of such content or review and have the right to grant this license; and (b) the content or review does not infringe any patent, copyright, trademark, trade secret or other proprietary right of any other party. Listings, reviews and content must not be used to promote ideological, religious, or political matters.

C - General Site Usage
  • All extensions, listings and linked sites must be compatible with the latest version of the Joomla license.
  • All extensions, listings and linked sites must comply with the Joomla Trademark Policy.
  • You must not violate or attempt to violate the security of the Joomla! Extensions Directory, interfere or attempt to interfere with the proper functioning of our Directory, servers or networks.
  • You must not post, upload, email, link to, or otherwise transmit any content that contains any viruses, harmful code, or other computer software or program that may damage or adversely affect the functionality of the Joomla Extensions Directory or impair others’ ability to use the Directory.
  • You must not use the Directory to send unsolicited emails (spamming).
  • You must not impersonate any person or entity or misrepresent an affiliation with another person or entity.
  • Only one account is allowed per person. Users found having multiple accounts will have all extra accounts deactivated. Users found in repeated violation of this policy will have their account and listings deactivated as well as all votes and reviews removed.
D - Listings

Any person or company is welcome to submit their extensions, tools or libraries for inclusion in the Joomla Extensions Directory. All listings must abide by the Directory Guidelines. Failure to comply may result in removal from the Directory.

E - Reviews and Voting

Any person is welcome to submit their review and vote for an extension listing. All votes and reviews must comply with the Directory Guidelines.

F - Violations of the Terms of Use and/or Directory Guidelines

We reserve the right, but not the obligation, to monitor the content of the Joomla Extensions Directory and usage of the site. Any activity that is suspected to be in conflict with the rules, as determined by the CLT, Joomla Extensions Directory team management or their appointees, will:
  • Be investigated by the assigned team member in conjunction with a Team Manager. During the time of investigation, up to 14 days, a listing may be temporarily unpublished and the listing owner notified. If an email is sent to the listing owner during this time, a response must be received within 5 days, otherwise the investigation will end and the listing owner will have waived their rights to a suspension review.
  • If a violation is found, the violating account will be immediately deactivated and any listings will be unpublished for a defined period based on the frequency of violations and the level of seriousness.
Depending on the Suspension period, the developer may seek a suspension review by the JED Council and a member of the CLT, with the member of the CLT being the final decision maker.
If no reply to the suspension notice is received in 14 days, the extension will be permanently removed from the Joomla Extensions Directory.

F1.- Suspensions

All of a developer's extensions are to be unpublished for a minimum period of one month (30 Days) for the first minor violation. The Team Manager has the right, but not the obligation, to pardon or adjust down a first time minor violation as a show of "good faith".

All of a developer's extensions are to be unpublished for a minimum period of three months (90 Days) for the second minor violation or the first major violation. A review of this suspension may be requested within 7 days of notice of the suspension.

All of a developer's extensions are to be unpublished for a minimum period of six months (180 Days) for the third minor violation, second major violation or the first serious violation. A review of this suspension may be requested within 7 days of notice of the suspension.

In the event of a fourth violation or a second serious violation, the developer will no longer be allowed to participate in the directory. A review of this suspension may be requested within 7 days of the suspension notification.

F2. - Violation Levels

Minor Violation - Consists of but not limited to spamming the JED Team Email (or individual emails), intentionally duplicating listings, creating multiple accounts and other basic offenses.

Major Violation - Consists of but not limited to fraudulent activity with voting or reviews, intentionally misleading a JED Team Member when information is required, misrepresenting information in your listing, and other major offenses.

Serious Violation - Defrauding the directory Team or Leadership by creating extensions that already exist and trying to pass them as your own (Forks of extensions are allowed, see the Directory Guidelines), making threats, harassing the JED Team or Leadership, fraudulent behavior in sales or listing practices and other serious offenses.

Attempts to circumvent Directory suspension may result in a longer or permanent suspension from the Directory. If you believe any listing or developer is violation of the rules, please either use the report function to report the listing or contact us using the information provided below. The CLT has final decision for any suspensions.

K - Privacy

Unless required by law, no personal information from Joomla! Extensions Directory members will be shared with third parties, unless this is the direct wish of said member. The CLT or OSM will divulge any information collected from you when required to do so by law. In the event that Open Source Matters or substantially all of its assets are acquired, your information will be one of the transferred assets. Using this site will cause the information you enter as well as your IP and site access and activities to be stored. Notes on your site activity and team member activity related to your account will be stored as well.

L - Disclaimers and Limitation of Liability

The listings and reviews on this site have been submitted by the community and are for general informational purposes only. Their listing does not constitute or imply endorsement, recommendation, or favouring by Joomla!/Open Source Matters.

Because the listings and reviews are provided by others, Joomla!/Open Source Matters, the Joomla! Project and it's leadership or the Joomla! Extensions Directory team cannot be held liable for the accuracy of the information. Visitors wishing to verify that the information is correct should contact the parties responsible for creating the content of the resource.

The information on this web site is presented "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND. OPEN SOURCE MATTERS DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL OPEN SOURCE MATTERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, DIRECT, SPECIAL, INDIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, OR DAMAGES FOR LOST PROFITS, LOSS OF REVENUE OR LOSS OF USE, ARISING OUT OF YOUR USE THIS SITE, EVEN IF OPEN SOURCE MATTERS HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. Some jurisdictions do not allow the exclusion of certain warranties or limitations on liability. Accordingly, the above limitations may not apply to you.

We reserve the right at any time to modify, suspend or discontinue the Directory (or any part thereof) with or without notice, and we are not liable to you or any third party for any modification, suspension or interruption in services.

M - Governing Law

Any dispute with respect to our Site shall be governed by the laws of the State of New York, excluding its conflicts of laws rules. All visitors to our Site submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the state and/or federal courts of the State of New York.

N - Questions and Contact

You may find additional help in the JED FAQs.
Any queries about these Terms of Use should be made in the Extensions Directory Forum or by an email to team@extensions.joomla.org.
Last edited by mlipscomb on Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Correcting formatting
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by Danayel » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:47 am

Regarding (A)

Does this mean that developers can't copy comments from the JED and put them on their site as testimonials without receiving written permission to do?

Regarding (C7)

This rule needs to be reviewed, it is very possible for a person to legitimately be accessing more than one JED account - they work for more than one project/company, they work for someone and have their own extensions.

In essence most non developers should only have one, but someone with products is likely to have access to multiple accounts and with good reason. In this respect developer accounts should be handled differently to non developers.

e.g. The Kunena team, which even has a CLT leader as a member, has a total of 8 accounts between them. 1 for Kunena and 7 personal accounts, 2 of them also have their own products.

A PLT member has also said that they too would have been in violation of the exact wording of this rule, but for a legitimate reason.

Limiting to one per person: does that also mean that only one person is allowed to use a particular account?

Regarding (F2)

Perhaps there needs to be a better description of what constitutes spamming. e.g. emailing twice in a day regarding a problem? Sending newsletters? Automated "thanks for your mail"? This clause could be abused to silence people arbitrarily, by just calling their mail "spam".

Similarly, what constitutes "harassing" the JED team and leadership should be defined.

Regarding (L)

Should there not be a note about the Editors choice which are in effect providing endorsement?

[removed question about OSM being acquired]


p.s. otherwise it seems mostly reasonable.
Last edited by Danayel on Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by masterchief » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:06 am

Nice work overall. Looking forward to what's in the enhanced features Easter egg (/me hope for statistics). Comments below.

A Copyright

If developers ask for permission to reproduce reviews on their own listings, would that generally be granted?

C General Site Usage

On point 7 I concur. Would like to see some latitude for using multiple accounts in some cases where there are reasonable grounds to do so.

F1 Suspensions

I'm tempted to suggest a name-and-shame policy for repeat offenders ... but I'll be good ;)
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by skOre » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:56 am

The Joomla Extensions Directory is a free service provided for the Joomla community under the oversight of the Community Leadership Team (CLT). This terms of use page describes the terms upon which you may access and use the Directory. By using the Directory, you affirm that you have read and accept all of the following terms and conditions, which may be updated by the CLT or it's appointees from time to time with notice being posted via an official blog. You must also agree the Directory Guidelines when submitting listings, ratings, comments, reviews or reports.
Seems to me to be a duplicate of the earlier sentence (that you must agree with the terms to use the entire site should include all actions in this sentence) or at least grammatically weird.
The CLT and Open Source Matters (OSM) may offer different levels of participation and benefits related to the Directory. Some of these enhanced levels may include a cost. Levels that do include a cost are provided on an opt-in basis. Basic listings in the JED will always be free. The CLT has the right, in its sole discretion, to set and revise rules concerning what benefits are offered to each level of participants. Your continued use of the Joomla Extensions Directory constitutes your agreement to be bound by the rules as modified.
I'm sorry to be a pedant, but that just sounds majorly weird. What's with all the different responsibilities? In my previous critique I already wrote about that it is problematic that there are different entities apparently battling over who gets to be the leader of the pack. Now you have also introduced the CLT to the Terms of Service. I thought that the JED was governed by the JED Team, which was in turn responsible to the OSM (first, now also the CLT). Why don't you just put the JED Team in there and let the other matters be implicit.

Why do the ToS include the possibility of paid listings in the future? Not that I'm just completely against creating a multi-tier setup where you pay for "special" listings, I actually think that it is particularly weird to introduce it in such a backhanded manner. If you do plan for this, how do you expect developers react to it? "Oh interesting, here is a partial subversion of the community spirit out of the blue, makes me feel all warm and cozy now that I'm just presented with it as a fact, let me open my wallet for you." If you made this public, I can guarantee you that it would create quite a firestorm. I guess you anticipate that and the fact that I read about it first here seems to be a sign of that. But you do realize that that makes it a very bad idea, right?
You acknowledge that Open Source Matters or its content providers, own the copyright to the materials and reviews in the Directory unless otherwise expressly indicated. You agree not to copy, reproduce, download, disseminate, scrape, publish, or transfer content in any form or by any means, except with our prior written permission. You further agree not to collect any information from the Directory using automated means (e.g., spiders or scraping).
[Nitpick] I was really hoping that we would at some time go the wikipedia route and utilize an open license for content, like the CreativeCommons. I understand that you are trying to protect a monopoly on the extensions listing, but... why do you do that?
By providing content for the Directory, you grant OSM and the Joomla Project a worldwide, irrevocable, royalty-free, non-exclusive license to reproduce, edit, publish, translate, and distribute the content in any medium whatsoever.
[Nitpick] Ditto. With CC, you'd have just that.
  • All extensions, listings and linked sites must be compatible with the latest version of the Joomla license.
"Sites" are not software and can thus not be compatible with the GPL. I mentioned this before:
  • All extensions, listings and linked sites must comply with the Joomla Trademark Policy.
It is implicit in the trademark policy that they must be. This rule is like saying "Your extensions must not murder people" - it is already determined to be unlawful by a higher instance. Likewise, the Joomla trademark policy applies without the need to put that as a rule into the JED ToS.
  • You must not violate or attempt to violate the security of the Joomla! Extensions Directory, interfere or attempt to interfere with the proper functioning of our Directory, servers or networks.
I would just love to hear what an attempted violation of the security or interference of the JED looks like. I think this weasel word coining could render this whole paragraph useless.
  • You must not use the Directory to send unsolicited emails (spamming).
Just out of curiosity: Is this actually technically possible?
Any person or company is welcome to submit their extensions, tools or libraries for inclusion in the Joomla Extensions Directory.
You should probably better write "software libraries". Otherwise you might find other people dumping rather large buildings on you.
All listings must abide by the Directory Guidelines. Failure to comply may result in removal from the Directory.
I'm quite sure this is also implicit.
All votes and reviews must comply with the Directory Guidelines.
Also probably implicit.
We reserve the right, but not the obligation, to monitor the content of the Joomla Extensions Directory and usage of the site.
If you don't reserve it, there is no need to specify that.
  • Be investigated by the assigned team member in conjunction with a Team Manager. During the time of investigation, up to 14 days, a listing may be temporarily unpublished and the listing owner notified. If an email is sent to the listing owner during this time, a response must be received within 5 days, otherwise the investigation will end and the listing owner will have waived their rights to a suspension review.
The specification that it is a team member with a manager is unnecessary. Expecting the whole world to be responsive within 5 days is ludicrous, particularly when we're dealing with non-commercial extensions.
  • If a violation is found, the violating account will be immediately deactivated and any listings will be unpublished for a defined period based on the frequency of violations and the level of seriousness.
If you want to spare yourself headaches in the future, lay down the math here, or prepare to be accused of arbitrariness.
Depending on the Suspension period, the developer may seek a suspension review by the JED Council and a member of the CLT, with the member of the CLT being the final decision maker.
Well, now we also have a JED Council. How many more bodies will receive responsibilities on the JED in the future?
If no reply to the suspension notice is received in 14 days, the extension will be permanently removed from the Joomla Extensions Directory.
A period of 14 days is slightly more reasonable, but still in the "we could screw with a developer who goes off grid or on holiday for two weeks". Make it a month, that wouldn't kill anybody.
All of a developer's extensions are to be unpublished for a minimum period of one month (30 Days) for the first minor violation. The Team Manager has the right, but not the obligation, to pardon or adjust down a first time minor violation as a show of "good faith".
One more point on the list of "who's gonna be responsible next?", then another non-claim, finally: fingerquotes? In a ToS? Really?
All of a developer's extensions are to be unpublished for a minimum period of three months (90 Days) for the second minor violation or the first major violation. A review of this suspension may be requested within 7 days of notice of the suspension.
Seems like there is some exponential growth in your application of force. Let's be clear what you are talking about here, though: One month of suspension is a serious hit to a business having a listing, three months could flat out kill it. I would say that this is unreasonable and I would strongly suggest to grow punishment by a rate of 50% compared to the minimum or last offense.
All of a developer's extensions are to be unpublished for a minimum period of six months (180 Days) for the third minor violation, second major violation or the first serious violation. A review of this suspension may be requested within 7 days of notice of the suspension.
6 Months is like eternity. In 6 months, you could turn a business around and go with another CMS - you could just as well throw them out right away. I think this is again unreasonable.

In general, my problem is whether or not these match up to the proposed depth of offenses, but let me explain in detail:
Minor Violation - Consists of but not limited to spamming the JED Team Email (or individual emails), intentionally duplicating listings, creating multiple accounts and other basic offenses.
So minor violations are basically nuisances. The response should be equal - I would say half a month of suspension.
Major Violation - Consists of but not limited to fraudulent activity with voting or reviews, intentionally misleading a JED Team Member when information is required, misrepresenting information in your listing, and other major offenses.
Now we jump straight to outright fraud. This is where participants actively cause harm to others. I don't think causing harm to others in that manner call for killing a business altogether, so refer to my revising the punishment of this to one and a half month.

Also note the terminology "Team Member" here.
Serious Violation - Defrauding the directory Team or Leadership by creating extensions that already exist and trying to pass them as your own (Forks of extensions are allowed, see the Directory Guidelines), making threats, harassing the JED Team or Leadership, fraudulent behavior in sales or listing practices and other serious offenses.
Because now we jump to two classes: Team and Leadership. Really?

And by the way: You are saying that heckling the team (or its leadership) is worse than causing actual harm to the community. This is far from reasonable.
The CLT has final decision for any suspensions.
Just noting this as an example for surprisingly precise determination of responsibility.

To conclude:
Many of the rules imply muddled responsibilities, there are a number of inconsistencies and a lot of the language should be double checked by a lawyer.

Far worse, though, is that what we have here is the blueprint for transitioning the JED into an AppStore. This is a perversion of the community spirit and I am appalled that you have the guts to write it in so clearly. You currently have rules in the ToS that make people give their copyright to you. The only reason why they do that is because the JED is still understood as a community effort. It is all the more clear now that you are actively working on subverting that.

[edit]Removed the portions on acquisition[/edit]
Last edited by skOre on Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by masterchief » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:28 pm

David and Danayel, you can't "buy" a non-profit (guys, seriously?), but they can fall into the equivalent of receivership and/or suffer a number of other equally dismal fates in which case the assets could be transferred to another non-profit (that's legal 101 stuff). You are jumping to the wrong conclusions and being overly melodramatic. The clause is there to allow the people to pick up the pieces and protect the community assets in the event of OSM going down the toilet (in which case this ToU is the least of your worries).
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by Danayel » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:53 pm

I didn't think of the receivership angle.

I wasn't trying to be melodramatic, but when lots of recent news is about this getting acquired, and that getting acquired, and suddenly the JED is saying "if OSM get's acquired" my first thought was not of receivership, mainly because as a web based, volunteer group it should pretty hard to go into receivership unless OSM starts acquiring significant assets, property, employees or debt.

Perhaps the example of receivership should be put into the wording to make it clearer so people don't jump to the wrong conclusions, as I don't think it is entirely unreasonable for someone to come to the conclusions we did given the current wording.
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by skOre » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:03 pm

You are correct, removed that point of my assessment. The other points still stand ;)
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by Andreas Berger » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:05 pm

Hi!

Beside of other points already mentioned:
B - Submissions
By providing content for the Directory, you grant OSM and the Joomla Project a worldwide, irrevocable, royalty-free, non-exclusive license to reproduce, edit, publish, translate, and distribute the content in any medium whatsoever. [...] Listings, reviews and content [...]
Please make clear what you mean with a "submission" and what you mean with "content". What parts of a listing are content? Is a review not content?

During the process of submitting an extension (is this a submission? probably!) I write the description for this extension (this description probably is content?) and I grant OSM and the Joomla Project a worldwide, ireevocable, royalty-free and so on license for this description. No problem.
Later during the process of submitting an extension I upload the extension (is this a submission? yes, probably it is. is it content? no, probably not - anyway, I am submitting it) and I absolutely do NOT grant OSM and the Joomla Project a worldwide, irrevocable, royalty-free (is the royalty-free license - as far as I know this is a license type - compatible with the GPL????) license for this extension. The extension is GPL licensed and I grant OSM and the Joomla Project the right to use the extension as specified in the GPL. Not more, not less.

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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by vdrover » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:15 pm

You acknowledge that Open Source Matters or its content providers, own the copyright to the materials and reviews in the Directory unless otherwise expressly indicated.
In this sentence, "materials" should be defined or clarified. As written, it could apply to the files that are provided when creating a listing and thus the extension developer is signing away his copyright on his code.

Edit: submitted without refreshing the page, so had not seen Andreas' comments which are similar in spirit.
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by Torettox84 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:22 pm

I'm not an expert in legalese (or in Joomla!), but my guess is that, by "content" and submissions" they're referring to all descriptions, reviews... etc. etc. which are related to your product. That's standard "legalese". It looks threatening, but it usually turns out to be a complicated way to say something that's completely harmless and logical.

Of course, if they're talking about your extensions, that's a completely different story ;-)

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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by horus_68 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:54 pm

issue 1:
the number of days (ban period, days to be revised) should be on an additional table as they could be changed later and should not require a full TOS discussion

issue 2:
The introductory part should be a section. It deals with an important question (paid and free areas) so this should be clear stated and not mixed with the general description of the directory
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by brian » Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:01 pm

Opening paragraph
You must also agree the
should be
You must also agree to the
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by Andreas Berger » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:03 am

replace:
We reserve the right, but not the obligation, to monitor the content of the Joomla Extensions Directory and usage of the site. Any activity that is suspected to be in conflict with the rules, as determined by the CLT, Joomla Extensions Directory team management or their appointees,
with: [...]as determined in this document (Terms of Use) and the "Directory Guidelines",

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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by skOre » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:55 am

horus_68 wrote:issue 2:
The introductory part should be a section. It deals with an important question (paid and free areas) so this should be clear stated and not mixed with the general description of the directory
Since nobody else is picking up on this, I wonder: Have I missed the memo or something? How come the fact that there is apparently a commercialization of the JED planned not a bigger topic. Was this announced already? Can anybody help me out here?
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by masterchief » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:35 am

skOre wrote:How come the fact that there is apparently a commercialization of the JED planned not a bigger topic. Was this announced already? Can anybody help me out here?
My "understanding", which could be fatally flawed, is that the JED you have today will always be the "free" version, but additional features will be "value added" at some sort of recurring cost (for example, Vimeo is free, but Vimeo Pro cost $60 a year and you get statistics and you get into the encoder queue faster, extra toys, etc).

When I put the resources directory RFP together back in '09, I certainly had that in mind from the start and we had absolutely no negative feedback on that point. It's a very common approach in service based web sites.
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by skOre » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:14 am

As I've said before: I understand that this is planned in one way or or another, but what I don't see is any announcement in advance, involvement of developers, anything at all.

We can agree or disagree on whether or not it is a good idea in itself (I would violently oppose it), but I guess what we should agree on is that just introducing it in a matter-of-fact way instead of having a proper conversation is not the right way to go.
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by masterchief » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:27 am

I think you meant "vehemently", not "violently" :) (otherwise I'm going out to buy a hard hat and riot shield, hehe).

As I said, for the JRD I put such a "catch all" clause in even though we didn't really know what that would look like (and still has not been acted on). Unless I'm mistaken, the same is happening here and if it was me, when the time did come (whether that is 5 days or 5 years away) to introduce "paid extras", or whatever they will be, that would come out as a proposal you could also comment on (and even as a developer of free extensions, I can think of a few bells and whistles I would be willing to pay extra for because I might be using them as loss-leaders for other things, or whatever). All that's doing is flagging that one day, something might happen with commercial services but for the "Terms of Use" it's irrelevant what those services are (to me anyway, and I don't mind and can understand if you disagree on that point).
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by skOre » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:47 am

I continue to disagree (and yes, violently - I choose my words carefully).

You don't make rules for things that you might decide on in the future. What you do is propose such a change, have a discussion on it, feel for what the community thinks about it, further discuss it, draft rules, discuss rules and then put rules in.

Proposing that it is a good idea to go at it top-down is, as I've said earlier, a subversion of the community spirit. There is simply no legal reason whatsoever to "prepare" for this, especially not in such a backhanded manner.

Also keep in mind that this is already an update of existing Terms of Service. So what would be the problem with doing such a change in the future, should the need arrive? As it stands now, it is at best unnecessary ballast and at worst a recipe for a firestorm. How you can play it down so casually is beyond me.
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by Andreas Berger » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:27 pm

Hi!

The issue was addressed before but I also wanted to point out, that it seems necessary to clear the competences:
The Joomla Extensions Directory is a free service provided for the Joomla community under the oversight of the Community Leadership Team (CLT).
I would replace this with:
The Joomla! Extension Directory (further referred to as JED) is provided for the Joomla! community by Open Source Matters (further referred to as OSM) and managed by the JED Team (link to the team page here).

Note: There is no need to refer to the CLT here, it's position is described at the JED team page.
By using the Directory, you affirm that you have read and accept all of the following terms and conditions, which may be updated by the CLT or it's appointees from time to time with notice being posted via an official blog. You must also agree the Directory Guidelines when submitting listings, ratings, comments, reviews or reports.
I would replace this with:
By using the JED, you affirm that you have read and accept all of the following terms and conditions, which may be updated by OSM or the JED team from time to time with notice being posted via {specify the blog!}.

Note: Submitting listings, ratings, comments, reviews or reports IS USING the JED, no need to repeat.
The CLT and Open Source Matters (OSM) may offer different levels of participation and benefits related to the Directory. Some of these enhanced levels may include a cost. Levels that do include a cost are provided on an opt-in basis. Basic listings in the JED will always be free. The CLT has the right, in its sole discretion, to set and revise rules concerning what benefits are offered to each level of participants. Your continued use of the Joomla Extensions Directory constitutes your agreement to be bound by the rules as modified.
I would replace this with:
OSM may offer different levels of participation and benefits related to the JED. Some of these enhanced levels may include a cost. Levels that do include a cost are provided on an opt-in basis. Basic listings in the JED will always be free. OSM has the right, in its sole discretion, to set and revise rules concerning what benefits are offered to each level of participants. Your continued use of the JED constitutes your agreement to be bound by the rules as modified.
You acknowledge that Open Source Matters or its content providers, own the copyright to the materials and reviews in the Directory unless otherwise expressly indicated. You agree not to copy, reproduce, download, disseminate, scrape, publish, or transfer content in any form or by any means, except with our prior written permission. You further agree not to collect any information from the Directory using automated means (e.g., spiders or scraping).
I would replace this with:
You acknowledge that OSM or its content providers, own the copyright to the materials and reviews in the JED unless otherwise expressly indicated. You agree not to copy, reproduce, download, disseminate, scrape, publish, or transfer content in any form or by any means, except with our prior written permission. You further agree not to collect any information from the JED using automated means (e.g., spiders or scraping).


By providing content for the Directory, you grant OSM and the Joomla Project a worldwide, ...
By providing content for the JED, you grant OSM a worldwide, ...

Note: It's OSM, not the Joomla! Project
Note: Further occurrences of "The Joomla! Directory" or "Directory" are not addressed explicitly, anyway, I would replace them all with "JED"
F - Violations of the Terms of Use and/or Directory Guidelines

We reserve the right, but not the obligation, to monitor the content of the Joomla Extensions Directory and usage of the site. Any activity that is suspected to be in conflict with the rules, as determined by the CLT, Joomla Extensions Directory team management or their appointees, will:
OSM reserves the right, but not the obligation, to monitor content and usage of the JED. Any activity that is suspected to be in conflict with the rules, as determined in this document and the Directory Guidelines will:
Be investigated by the assigned team member in conjunction with a Team Manager. ...
I would replace this with:
Be investigated by the JED team.
Note: Nobody cares and/or has to care about how the JED team organizes it's work and if there are structural changes within the team, they should not require changes of this document.
Depending on the Suspension period, the developer may seek a suspension review by the JED Council and a member of the CLT, with the member of the CLT being the final decision maker.
If no reply to the suspension notice is received in 14 days, the extension will be permanently removed from the Joomla Extensions Directory.
I would replace this with:
Depending on the Suspension period, the developer may seek a suspension review by the JED team.
Note: Again, don't over-complicate things.
All of a developer's extensions are to be unpublished for a minimum period of one month (30 Days) for the first minor violation. The Team Manager has the right, but not the obligation, to pardon or adjust down a first time minor violation as a show of "good faith".
I would replace this with:
All of a developer's extensions are to be unpublished for a minimum period of one month (30 Days) for the first minor violation. The JED team has the right, but not the obligation, to pardon or adjust down a first time minor violation as a show of "good faith".

Note: Once more! It is nice that you think about the internal structure of the JED team but these thoughts should not get part of this document. See, there is no "JED council" for a developer. There is only 1 email address "team@...", nothing more. keep it that way!
Serious Violation - Defrauding the directory Team or Leadership by creating extensions that already exist and trying to pass them as your own (Forks of extensions are allowed, see the Directory Guidelines), making threats, harassing the JED Team or Leadership, fraudulent behavior in sales or listing practices and other serious offenses.
I would replace this with:
Creating extensions that already exist and trying to pass them as your own (Forks of extensions are allowed, see the Directory Guidelines), making threats, harassing the JED Team or single JED team members, fraudulent behavior in sales or listing practices and other serious offenses.

Note: I don't care if you are defrauded by a submitted clone, it's forbidden and evil POINT.
Attempts to circumvent Directory suspension may result in a longer or permanent suspension from the Directory. If you believe any listing or developer is violation of the rules, please either use the report function to report the listing or contact us using the information provided below. The CLT has final decision for any suspensions.
I would replace this with:
Attempts to circumvent JED suspension may result in a longer or permanent suspension from the JED. If you believe any listing or developer is violation of the rules, please either use the report function to report the listing or contact us using the information provided below. The JED team has final decision for any suspensions.

Note: Keep out the CLT of this document. The JED team structure shows it's rule in this game, no need to mention it here. Keep the structure simple.
K - Privacy

Unless required by law, ....
Kick the complete paragraph and replace it with a link to the privacy statement already in place (refer to the JED footer). There is no need to breed extra rules for the JED.

Note: Replace further occurrences of "Open Source Matters" and/or "we" with OSM, replace further occurrences of "Directory", "Extensions Directory" with "JED".

final note: As far as I know, it is not "Joomla" but "Joomla!". An official document should reflect this.

Best regards
Andreas Berger

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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by masterchief » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:38 pm

Thanks for the constructive criticism Andreas - there are some good thoughts there. KISS++
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by bzcoder » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:43 pm

I really hate copyright theft.....even when it is "legalized" by boiler plate terms of service.
mlipscomb wrote:
A - Ownership of Copyrights

You acknowledge that Open Source Matters or its content providers, own the copyright to the materials and reviews in the Directory unless otherwise expressly indicated. You agree not to copy, reproduce, download, disseminate, scrape, publish, or transfer content in any form or by any means, except with our prior written permission. You further agree not to collect any information from the Directory using automated means (e.g., spiders or scraping).
No, I don't agree that you may steal my words in my written review and then not allow me to post my own words on my own website because you own the copyright.

Compare this blatant attempt to steal the hard work of individuals providing reviews and description to Facebook's policy
http://www.facebook.com/terms.php
"Sharing Your Content and Information

You own all of the content and information you post on Facebook, "


YOU the user own what you write. Facebook does not steal it through a poorly worded Terms of Service contract and then forbid you to post your own content elsewhere.

This clause is not required for protecting the JED from legal liability due to republishing due to the second clause, b. Therefore it is nothing more than blatant theft.

If it is just spidering/downloading you are concerned with than deal with that in a manner which does not involve stealing.
mlipscomb wrote:
B - Submissions

By providing content for the Directory, you grant OSM and the Joomla Project a worldwide, irrevocable, royalty-free, non-exclusive license to reproduce, edit, publish, translate, and distribute the content in any medium whatsoever. You represent and warrant that: (a) you are the author of such content or review and have the right to grant this license; and (b) the content or review does not infringe any patent, copyright, trademark, trade secret or other proprietary right of any other party. Listings, reviews and content must not be used to promote ideological, religious, or political matters.
This satisfies quite easily your rights to re-publish submitted content without the need of stealing someone else's copyright.


Learn from history, ever big company[CNN, Facebook, Google] with websites that allow for reviews and directories has wrestled with this problem and many have taken the easy, lazy route of trying to steal the copyright rather than act responsibly. All of them have eventually backed off from that because it is morally indefensible.

Don't repeat the same mistake.

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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by masterchief » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:54 pm

@bzcoder Section B supersedes A because of "unless otherwise expressly indicated". Section A is there to stop the scrapers and give them the head of power to go after these scumbags. Section B is there to protect your personal copyright. You may choose to mount your own legal action against scrapers but I'm sure you'd rather leave it to OSM.
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by skOre » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:50 pm

Well, once again - why not use a properly established legal framework and go with a GNU FDL or Creative Commons license like so many efforts out there (like wikipedia). This would mean you even save a lot of legal trouble for OSM. That is, of course, unless OSM has its own commercial interest in the data.
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by masterchief » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:05 pm

I think you've made it clear David you don't trust anything Joomla does - please don't keep reminding everyone of that fact.
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by Danayel » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:15 pm

Perhaps the term "or it's content providers" in clause A needs to be fleshed out to include specifically the people who submitted the content, and the owners of the extensions content was submitted for.

A review submitter should explicitly retain copyright of their review.

An extension developer should be able to repost reviews on their site without prior written permission.

An extension developer should also retain copyright of any materials they post.

This may in fact be the intention of the above code, as you seem to imply in your reply to bzcoder, so why not make it clearer? Similar to the OSM being acquired statement, clarity will reduce the misunderstandings and overreactions.

As for David's comment, if you ignore his snide remark at the end, he does have a point. All of this has been done before, and with more clarity and thought to the legal and social implications. Why not leverage those resources instead of trying to reinvent the wheel?
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by skOre » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:31 pm

masterchief wrote:I think you've made it clear David you don't trust anything Joomla does - please don't keep reminding everyone of that fact.
Not sure what you are referring, there is no "Joomla" doing anything here. The fact that I have raised the same issue multiple times and that other communities take an established, trusted and working route leads me to believe that either OSM or the CLT must have a reason to decide against that. The only reason I can imagine under the current circumstances is a commercial one.

I made my statement without any judgment and in fact, if you look at the financial data that OSM has released - the JED does bring the lion share of the cash through google ads. So it should be easy to see that I do have a point here, whether or not you allow yourself to see it freed from the other opinions that I hold.
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by Danayel » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:43 pm

Incidentally, I don't see any comments from Matt. Is there going to be any reverse feedback? e.g. yes we will make that change, no we won't and here is why etc.

Or are you acting for the CLT on this Andrew?
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by masterchief » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:52 pm

Nope. I'm acting for Andrew Eddie the extension developer and JED listee. The JED is my major lifeline so I want to make sure things are done to not adversely affect me. Purely selfish motives, hehe. So far, so good :)
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by mlipscomb » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:08 am

Danayel wrote:Incidentally, I don't see any comments from Matt. Is there going to be any reverse feedback? e.g. yes we will make that change, no we won't and here is why etc.
Maybe, possibly, of course, definitely not, anyone want a beer? :p

My primary comment - the bulk of this TOU was derived verbatim from the current TOS - so 99% of this is all something that everyone is already subject to under the current TOS. The goal is to make the TOU a more direct, understandable and rarely changing document than the current TOS. I don't think that has been achieved in this version, but I do think it is possible. The feedback so far is extremely helpful and I will work on a new draft version to post soon (darn clients keep getting in the way of my 'joomla time').

In my own opinion, the upcoming Directory Guidelines will be the "fleshier" document and what really should 'govern' the daily activities of the JED.

Also, after we all finish here, it gets to head over to lawyer land to ensure we haven't given away the farm or created an atomic bomb.
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Re: DRAFT: JED Terms of Use

Post by horus_68 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:35 am

You agree not to copy, reproduce, download, disseminate, scrape, publish, or transfer content in any form or by any means, except with our prior written permission.

Should be (sorry by the wording):

You agree not to copy, reproduce, download, disseminate, scrape, publish, or transfer content FROM OTHERS in any form or by any means, except with our prior written permission.
Users are granted to use their own reviews as they like. Developers can republish reviews from their own extensions as they like.

As in copyrights:
developers should keep their copyrights in everything they post on JED (images, logos, texts, files). On submission they just allow JED to reuse the contents submitted (images, logos, texts) and the right to JED admins to analyze their code files and install it for testing.


Lets make this fair and simple. If you want to take action against scrappers, don't hurt users and developers!
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