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Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:59 am
by deleted user
I'm not saying I endorse or support the idea. But if you're going to propose it, come at us with a better argument than "but WordPress has Automattic paying for stuff, why can't we!?".

Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:27 am
by sozzled
I respect your opinion, Michael, I really do. However, I don't believe the solution (as proposed by commentators in this topic) to throw more money at the lame duck that is the JED (or to throw more technology as proposed by the JED team with "JED 4") really addresses the issues that we're trying to discuss.

The JED team has been "on holidays" (for several months, it seems) as we've already observed. I don't know what serious proposals exist or are in the pipeline to address the points raised at the beginning of this topic. I don't see how we're now discussing crowdfunding the JED is related to the discussion.

The problems are human problems; the problems have to do with management. Of course we can throw more money into the "problem" and, of course, we could consider how an improved technological interaction between developers and the JED team might be beneficial but these things have been discussed ad nauseam and there's been no sign of any real commitment to improve things. That's just how I see it.

Thanks anyway for trying to be reasonable about it. Cheers. :)

Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:54 am
by darb
Michael, I don't understand "this either results in fewer extension listings or the ecosystem raising prices to accommodate for the commission fees, hurting the consumer" and I absolutely don’t agree.

To n o t monetize JED was a bad strategic decision and have a huge impact of Joomla as a whole. I don’t think that template clubs templates and/or Joomla extension developers will abandon JED if they get some extra sales/marketing/credibility and also pay some sales commission to JED also supporting the project they are depending on.

They still can sell their extensions/templates elsewhere/anywhere so there is nothing for them to loose and worry about.

Joomla.org/jed is just another sales channel.

And the customer can have freedom to choose where he want to buy/pay for that extensions/templates.

And

1. The listing for every extension/template developer will be free.

2. The price will be the same for the consumer as the price is on the template/extension sellers other sites or on its own site(s) (it’s a condition to be listed on JED)

Is this not a win/win situation for getting a better JED, better secure payment to "consumers" and also supporting Joomla as a whole? So as a Joomla supporter what would you do if you want Joomla to get more resources and survive long term?

(Its the Google model - just pay for something when you get a value. I tried to convice Mr Lee about 10 years to include this in his Mosets Tree but he never understood this killer app for building directories. Nobody will pay something upfront just to get listed. Same here its free to be listed but you pay a commission if somebody buy your extension/template - its win/win)

Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:55 pm
by deleted user
You're saying though that extensions with a paid license would have to provide a commission to the JED based on their sales. I do not see all extension providers selling services being willing to opt into this, therefore I see less paid extensions on the JED (some would say this is a good thing). For those who do opt into this, I see the potential for raised sale prices because the commission would cause the providers to lose money off their profit margin (and we don't know how much their profit margins are, nor should that be public record). So to me, requiring a commission be paid to the Joomla project only helps the Joomla project, it does not help the ecosystem surrounding the project. That's why I think setting up that model would be much more difficult for the project than opening a donation based system.

Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:16 pm
by Vimes
I wouldn't pay commission, but I've always said I'd be happy to pay a flat fee for the service.

Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:55 pm
by itoctopus
Not sure if a commission based system is feasible in the first place. This means that transactions must be processed through a payment gateway administered by Joomla (same as Google), which means that all the companies/individuals with commercial extensions must cease to accept payments on their own sites and process transactions through the Joomla gateway. I can't be the only person who thinks that that's impossible.

As for paying a flat fee, I don't think there are that many extensions in Joomla to make it worthwhile.

Also, I think it's a bad idea to throw the burden on the extension developers, who really are the backbone of Joomla.

Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:29 pm
by sozzled
Thanks for nothing, guys. You've totally hijacked this topic and turned it into an absurd pantomime.

Let me spell this out again, one last time, for @darb, @itoctopus, @mbabker and others who seem to think that, somehow, if we find enough money we'll cure everything that incipiently wrong with the current "system".

This is typical of a bunch of guys: you're so eager to jump in with your various solutions, you've completely forgotten about the problem(s) that you're trying to solve!

The problem has nothing to do with volunteerism, or European holidays, or Wordpress vs Wikipedia vs LEGO funding or whether some kind of caste system among the developers—somehow paid extensions would subsidise the costs of allowing for more free extensions (or whatever further madcap schemes you guys have dreamt up) will stop the rot. You can't imagine how disappointed I am to read this lunacy! This is precisely why we're in the mess we're in today. It's precisely because of self-serving notions about money, technology and elitist rules that impose added barriers on developers to further deny them the means to showcase their skills, are why we're continually having these discussions.

How about a bit more navel-gazing! The first step in tackling any problem is to admit that there is a problem! Isn't it curious that we developers are continually attacked and criticised for daring to raise our concerns? And if we're not attacked, we're ignored! We ask questions of the JED team and we're told that we didn't follow the rules; we're instructed to be patient, we're told that the matters are being investigated ... we're treated, at best, like infants and, at worst, like mushrooms.

So you can shove all of that into your precious "solutions" about the JED because I'm tired of taking sides in this discussion. What's the problem? If you guys don't know by now then there's no point in having this discussion, sorry

Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:37 pm
by deleted user
The only thing I intended to do was explain why from my perspective the monetary "solutions" proposed by some as a means to "fix" the JED would cause more issues than the solution's worth. Nothing more, nothing less.

Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:10 pm
by sozzled
@mbabker: exactly my point. There can be no solution until the JED management team admits the problem (that that the JED project is out of control)—which the team has consistently refused to do—rather than offering shot-in-the-dark ideas to perpetuate the ongoing dysfunctionality or create new problems that would send the JED spiralling further out of control.

Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:32 am
by chrisguk
I sympathise with you sozzled. I have had all of those experiences with the JED and more. Now I think of the JED like a relationship. If you question it, fight it, and try to change it, you will only drive yourself crazy. Just accept it for what it is. For all its faults, the JED does me a lot of good, and for the time being it's better for me to be in this relationship than to walk away from it. Use it, but don't let it get you down. Keep an eye out for a better deal. Then you'll find that as a free source of hits and buyers, the JED is actually pretty hard to beat.

By the way, I often forget to update the version number on the JED when I update an extension. You can't blame the JED for that.

Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:09 am
by darb
Vimes wrote:I wouldn't pay commission, but I've always said I'd be happy to pay a flat fee for the service.
For me that is a unfair business model and if you have "expensive" extension(s) that would benefit those extensions developer on behalf on others.

To pay a small commission fee like 8% for all sales if its 300 Euro or 30 Euro to give back to Joomla should be ok for Joomla hosting all extensions developers extensions and templates also take care of the online sales. That would also benefit new developers that just want to make some smaller extensions and have everything ready with that payment structure.

People come to Joomla and want to see good and great design and the first thing you will look at is the different amazing templates and with that the extensions. Not the other way around. There is nothing like this on JED for templates.

Why you think Wordpress goes for that model - Templates (America ;)) First! and are very very successful with that?

Discussing JED improvements would be good to do on JWC. Hope that will be discussed there...

Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:21 pm
by counterpoint
The discussion did seem to take off into a variety of fancy issues. My simple concern is that one of my extensions was falsely accused of hacking the core, and a ticket refuting this remains unanswered after nearly two months. Likewise, a submission of the same extension remains unpublished after nearly two months. Raising a ticket as a reminder just gets closed by a volunteer who says he does not have the authority to publish. (Incidentally, lots of people in Europe do not take a month's holiday in the summer). Any system that cannot respond to a ticket within a month has a serious problem.

Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:56 pm
by gws
sozzled wrote:@mbabker: exactly my point. There can be no solution until the JED management team admits the problem (that that the JED project is out of control)—which the team has consistently refused to do—rather than offering shot-in-the-dark ideas to perpetuate the ongoing dysfunctionality or create new problems that would send the JED spiralling further out of control.
I agree totally with Sozzled, at the moment the JED is not fit for purpose, who knows why? It needs a shake up of the system. Joomla wonders why it's user base is dropping when one of the stars of joomla used to be the JED.There is talent in the Joomla organization to fix it, why do they not rather than make excuses?

Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:22 pm
by darb
one of the stars of joomla used to be the JED
Yes that is really true and I think it must be to top on the agenda for Joomla now and discussed on JWC how to make this be the priority to fix/improve JED and worst case look at WP what they doing.

Thats what WP did before look at Joomla JED and make it better and fit with the overall business model.

So make a redesign with designers, put in templates and make it possible to sell extensions. templates directly on JED where a % commission is given back to Joomla for the sales.

I think this is a good idea and then commercial and free extensions can coexists on the same platform.

Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:32 pm
by deleted user
Now I'm going to say this as a director of the board of Open Source Matters, not as a contributor to this thread. We are not going to pursue a commission option in the JED as it relates to sales of commercial extensions. Please do not continue pitching this idea as an option.

Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:10 pm
by counterpoint
@mbabker OK you're free to make policy decisions. But what is going to be done about tickets remaining unanswered for months on end?

Re: The JED is a farce

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:15 pm
by mandville
counterpoint wrote:@mbabker OK you're free to make policy decisions. But what is going to be done about tickets remaining unanswered for months on end?
perhaps you should ask the ticket system where there are some, dont think the jed has, unless you SPECIFICALLY know of any and can provide PROOF that they exist.