JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

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darb
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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by darb » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:55 pm

"Realistically, the only thing JED offers over a Google search is a centralized location for reviews (when that subsystem works) and the false premise that the extension has passed some kind of Joomla assessment to be deemed worthy of listing."
But at least they are at one place at Joomla HQ, listed by categories and search options, audit by its community and structured to comparision.

That doesnt Google fix.
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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by mbabker » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:22 pm

darb wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:55 pm
"Realistically, the only thing JED offers over a Google search is a centralized location for reviews (when that subsystem works) and the false premise that the extension has passed some kind of Joomla assessment to be deemed worthy of listing."
But at least they are at one place at Joomla HQ, listed by categories and search options, audit by its community and structured to comparision.

That doesnt Google fix.
You might place value in that. The uninformed individual might place value in that. As someone who knows the inner workings of the project pretty darn well, that doesn't mean a thing to me. I expect entries in a centralized catalogue or store to have been reviewed, periodically reviewed, and received proper auditing and accreditation to be listed in that store. The JED does not have a similar workflow to WordPress' plugins or themes directories, Drupal's modules listings, or at a larger scale something like the Apple App Store or Google Play. Knowing the inner workings as I do, I place no additional faith or trust in an entry being listed on the Joomla Extensions Directory than I do anything that is not submitted, and if more people were informed on how things actually worked they too would not emphasize "oh you have to be JED listed or you're crap" belief that I feel like way too many try to put out there for others to follow.

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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by sozzled » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:36 pm

Always a good read and thanks, Michael. :)
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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by darb » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:01 am

"The JED does not have a similar workflow to WordPress' plugins or themes directories.:"
Comparing Wordpress workflow as a rawmodel?

I have not used WP for the last 2 years, if it changed?, so I cant judge now how it works but WordPress plg directory sucks! WordPress eliminating almost all negative comments by purpose to not let people know how much problem these plgs or WordPress have in reality.

Thats my experience and thats why I dont want to have nothing to do with that CMS bcs its so biased controlled by these people. Even Joomla isnt perfect for everyone you can almost always discuss things open here and have your own free opinion.
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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by Webdongle » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:25 pm

As a user who frequently looks for extensions I do not need to know the inner workings of JED to know what gives me the best results quickly.
If I need to find anything in JED I search google
site:extensions.joomla.org search words
It gives far better results
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results": Albert Einstein

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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by darb » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:39 am

Webdongle wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:25 pm
As a user who frequently looks for extensions I do not need to know the inner workings of JED to know what gives me the best results quickly.
If I need to find anything in JED I search google
site:extensions.joomla.org search words
It gives far better results
@Webdongle

How do you know the latest updates/history/update frequents etc of these extensions ( if you not every day have to go to each developers sites after a Google search or your bookmarks)?

Bcs I want and follow 50-60 different developers closely and want to know when they in timely order update their different extensions. Its easy with "Latest updated" and I don't want to go to 60 sites every day to know if they have updated their different Joomla extensions software or not. And I have not installed them all just a few.

But if I see that they are actively develop new updated versions that create trust over time that they are not a one day Joomla dreamer developer that is not there for the long run. So then I can choose the right extension bcs I know how they work.

That make me also follow/choose between different Joomla developers and see how create most trust that they progressing and listening to customers need and make new improved enhancement and understand the Joomla/Open Source business model.
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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by sozzled » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:33 pm

It has now been two months since this topic was created—since the time we were asked to participate in a user survey; a fact-finding exercise. I asked if the results of that survey could be published and whether the JED development team had taken our comments/suggestions on-board.

It was not a complicated survey. It asked a couple of questions. The JED team agrees that there's a problem with the review system; the survey asked if the redeveloped JED should even include a review system considering all the problems that the current JED has with it.

It would be nice to think that, when we participate in surveys, the result(s) of those surveys may become publicly known after allowing a short interval of time for analysis. Otherwise, it would seem that these surveys are a waste of our time. So, if asked to contribute to future surveys about how the JED might be rebuilt, I doubt that I will be participating in them.
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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by Webdongle » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:39 pm

To be fair there is no real room on there for comments/suggestions. The search is next to useless in JED but nothing in the survey asking about that.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by darb » Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:52 am

Webdongle wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:39 pm
To be fair there is no real room on there for comments/suggestions. The search is next to useless in JED but nothing in the survey asking about that.


Agree.

And as discussed here pls take back the "Last updated" viewtopic.php?f=262&t=973799 that have been in Joomla for approx 10 years (Mosets I miss you..) but was taken away just a few weeks ago!

Make it work there again and then for the new JED whenever that comes in to place have a better solution for fake "new" updates.

Thats a better leadership.
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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by darb » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:25 am

I think this analysis here is also a good input for the JED - see paragraph 5 .. https://thephpfactory.com/articles/1402 ... joomla-org
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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by sozzled » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:31 am

Thanks, @darb. Good read! :)
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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by shumisha » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:49 am

Hi all

Might be late to the party but I (weeblr: sh404SEF and wbAMP) have been hit recently by issues when users posted reviews at the JED. We worked out some on Github but after finally having that review posted successfully, it was flagged as SPAM.

Anibal directed me to this topic which I've been reading entirely and I'd like to suggest the following comments and then a suggestion:

1 - Having reviews is important, both for users and developers, commercial or not
2 - Having spam-free reviews is equally important. If not, probably better drop the reviews entirely
3 - No anti-spam system will work 100%, either because of false negatives or false positives
4 - False negatives (ie uncaught spammy reviews) can already be handled: we can report them to the team to be manually checked. False positives are the problem.
5 - The JED team cannot manually check ALL reviews before they're posted
6 - Checking users postal addresses, etc seems hard: even if a post code or an address exists, it does not mean the reviewer lives there! And checking the IP address against a postal address just does not cut it, there are too many real, valid exceptions.
7 - I don't see how a token would help either, having the proper token would be easily counterfeit. Lowering the spam-detection level because we think a token is preventing some spam would result in more spam, not less, I think.

I think the real problem is not so much that there are false positives. As no system is fool proof, errors are expected.
The real problem for me is that there is no "second chance" and a flagged review is gone for ever, without anybody knowing and having a chance to correct the false positives.

So may be a way to modify the JED workflow could be similar to:

1 - Incoming reviews are passed through the existing anti-spam system, or an improved one if one can be designed
2 - When a review is flagged as SPAM:

- the review is kept in the database and marked as SPAM
- spam reviews are listed on the JED record owner dashboard, on a new tab. Reason for spam flagging is displayed
- an email is fired off to the developer (the JED record owner)
- the JED record owner goes to the JED and can check the review. There are 2 buttons:
- It's SPAM: delete entirely
- It's not SPAM: submit to the JED team for manual check up. A comment field would be nice to have so that the developer can explain why the review is valid, provide reference (ie link to the site, link to support thread showing the user is a real user, ...)

3 - After a given period of time, maybe 2 weeks or a month, if the JED record owner has not checked the SPAM review, that review is deleted entirely.

Benefits are:

- we can have a strong anti-spam filter - because false positives have a chance to be manually recovered
- manual SPAM reviews recovery work is spread amongst all JED owners, not just the JED team. Each developer will have a small number of reviews to double-check. The JED team only has to manually check reviews the developer already checked and validated.
- the JED team has the final say about accepting a review - that cannot be done by the JED record owner

I think such a workflow, while it does require some work, could be implemented and has the significant advantage of spreading the workload over developers insted of relying on just the JED team.

What do you think?
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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by darb » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:25 am

Good constructive input Shum! Thks.
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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by toivo » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:25 pm

Sounds good and hopefully these suggestions can be implemented.

I would like to continue submitting reviews but had to stop two years ago after several real, objective and definitely non-spam reviews were blocked by the automated system and the subsequent tickets hit a brick wall. I strongly believe that a healthy review system is vitally important to the Joomla supply chain.
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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by Webdongle » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:25 pm

The extension owner being notified a review (of their extension) had been moved to spam. Then being able to view that review ... would be good. They could then notify the JED team.
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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by mbennett417 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:38 pm

I think if you require two-factor authentication in order to login and use JED, and then force another 2FA entry to post a review, it will substantially cripple the spammers. Using either Google Authenticator or even text messaging should work.

I've also read the suggestion that JED developers should be able to preview and challenge reviews as spam, but not delete them. Maybe just having the ability to flag a post as "suspected spam" would be enough to remove the power of negative reviews in bulk.

It would do nothing to limit false positive reviews however, so a developer could pad the reviews with fakes and raise their rating.

However, the IP address screening system does not work and must end.

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Re: JED Reviews - We Need Your Suggestions

Post by shumisha » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:50 pm

Hi

@mbennett417:

> I've also read the suggestion that JED developers should be able to preview and challenge reviews as spam,

You might have read that elsewhere but that's not what I suggested. Current problem is:

1 - false negatives: reviews are SPAM but are accepted
2 - false positives: ie reviews that are valid but marked as SPAM

1 is not really an issue because a/ SPAM filtering is very strong, too strong very often and b/ extensions developer can already report SPAM reviews on their extensions. JED team accepts or not the report.

2 is the current problem: because of too stringent rules, some reviews are rejected while they should not. My proposal is to have those reviews screened by developers, only those reviews, and bring them to the attention of JED team: "hey, this is not really SPAM, accept it".

Sorry if you meant something else.

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