Changing a Free extension to Paid

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Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by alledia » Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:58 pm

We're considering changing a couple of extension listing from "Free" to "Paid" in order to make their development viable on Joomla 4.

Looking at our numbers, we don't think we can continue to support these extensions in their current situation for Joomla 4 and need to make a change.

Is there any way to make that move without losing all the reviews on the extension?
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by PhilTaylor-Prazgod » Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:05 pm

FAQ:

https://extensions.joomla.org/support/k ... xtensions/

Changing from Free to Paid

Users tend to vote and review free extensions more favorably. To ensure fairness and accuracy in votes and reviews, all votes and reviews made before the change will be removed.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by alledia » Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:08 pm

lol, I wish that were true about free extensions.

JED team, please let me know if this something you'd consider. If not, I understand 100%.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by sozzled » Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:17 pm

AFAIK, if an extension developer changes their listing from free to paid, or vice-versa, all the reviews for that extension are deleted when that happens. That's been my experience and @PhilTaylor-Prazgod's advice seems to be well-founded.

I'm just saying, those are the conditions of the JED service.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by PhilTaylor-Prazgod » Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:18 pm

It’s not my advice. I quoted the official FAQ page!

I don’t see why they should consider your request - the rules are there for a reason and should be applied consistently and without favour - they have been this way for almost a decade!

But then again, nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to you or the Joomla leadership anymore… not my rules, not me enforcing them - I simply linked to them
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by sozzled » Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:19 pm

I agree, Phil. 8)
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by sozzled » Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:44 pm

I would also add—as a passing comment—that there were two main reasons I chose to change my JED listings from free to paid (and they had little to do with ongoing future support costs):

1) When the JED imposed additional conditions on how new extensions could be added or existing listings could be modified (e.g. extensions can only be listed if they employ J! update server methods) it took me many months before I got my head around how to implement the changes in the XML files. In other words, with little practical help online and not being able to make sense of what I'd read, I spent a long time doing my own research before I found the solution.

2) When people find these free extensions, 99% of the time they just siphon them off the developer's website and never leave any review about their experience on the JED. I usually try to leave a review if I were to do that, just as my way of saying thank you. So, given the ungrateful mob that inhabits the 'netiverse—people take but never give anything in return—I asked myself, "Why should host a website where people simply suck the bandwidth from the web service that I'm paying for with my own hard-earned?"

Therefore, lacking any consideration, financial or otherwise, for the cost of my time—even if it's just a hobby—to build something, test it, write the marketing blurb, submit it to the JED, and get whatever-it-was published and the thankless attitude by ingrates who take whatever people give away as if they're somehow entitled to it, I thought to heck with all that. That's why I changed my business model from "free" to paid. 8) I would have been overjoyed if people had left any reviews when my listings were "free"—even after a couple of thousand downloads, no reviews were written—it hasn't made any difference if those extensions (that people now have to pay for ... for a couple of dollars, BTW) are "reviewed" or not.

We've had several discussions about the "value" of reviews to the JED "ecosystem" before; for example, see viewtopic.php?f=262&t=973003 :eek:
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by PhilTaylor-Prazgod » Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:47 pm

Off topic, but the JED has been a failure for listing developers since its very conception and there have been repeated calls - repeatedly - by developers to sort out the mess of fake reviews, weight of anonymous votes, spam ratings and abandoned listings... but "we are just volunteers" mantra just keeps getting repeated...

I might also add for balance, that I dont have a single listing, and I still run a very successful business without it. And even when I had multiple listings back when the JED first launched, It was rare that the traffic resulted in a paid purchase.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by sozzled » Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:21 pm

Also, a little off-topic: I have downloaded at least one of the extensions written by @alledia and (lest anyone suggest I only talk the talk and don't back up my talk with action) I posted a [100%] favourable review of it in 2016. So, as a public acknowledgement of his work, thank you @alledia for what you've done. :)
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by alledia » Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:49 pm

Thanks @sozzled. I appreciate you doing that and for your thoughtful, detailed post above.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by Webdongle » Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:29 pm

But if an extension has free and use and paid support many of the reviews will be by users who pay for support. Wiping the reviews when that extension becomes paid download doesn't seem fair. Wiping reviews denies potential users from seeing the track record.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by webgobe » Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:18 am

Interesting discussion, but as a JED insider I need to add my cents to it - to clarify/correct couple of things from above thread.
1. "we are just volunteers" mantra. Yes, we are just volunteers. A fistful of volunteers to be precise, doing all the heavy lifting here. And we are humans too, if, for example, some of us is getting ill, then might happen to NOT have someone ready to jump in to solve problems in his field of responsibility/expertise. To name just 2 recent cases: the Reviews got basically "orphaned" for a period of time, and the development of new JED4 has been slowed down for such an issues.
2. Actual JED capabilities - see above, we have in work a new, "homegrown" software for JED. The current one is based on a proprietary version of Fabric, without support from the original developers, and is showing his age. Who is at fault? Well, not me, for sure. And not my teammates. Everyone who is there is working hard. And the pay back? Read this thread, and you will know what we are using to receive.
3. JED rules - well, you can agree or not with them, but one thing is sure: these rules where adopted via a democratic process, by the former and actual JED members who are running the show. These are based on experiences accumulated over all these years, and not just arbitrary things put there to favor or to annoy someone. We have discussing each interesting, challenging case and are adopting the rules, if we have a consensus about the change. (BTW, the case of changing an extension from free to paid is a mix between the rules we have and the capabilities of JED3 we are working with. And is not that simple as someone, single handed can change overnight. We can discuss about, of course. And there are arguments on both sides...)
4. JED reviews - we have accumulated a great number of cases, tactics, schemes - dirty, or just in gray zone - of fake, malicious, not that honest or just naively uninformed cases of reviews which might NOT deserve to stay. Personally I have at least 5 reviews on my listed extensions which I strongly disagree with - and normally (what's normal, anyway) should be removed. But for one reason or another they are staying there, in my case mostly because back then, when these where made I wasn't able to convince the JED team member in charge with them that the given review is inadequate or simply malicious, without substance.
So, there are rules. And also there are toff decisions to make. Not all is just black and white, we have complex rules to use here - but that generally is not enough.

You might like the process and the outcome, or you can even hate it. Do you want to change this? It is easy. Come on board - we have open seats all of the time - and make your revolution from inside. You will have the same vote, as the most experienced, longest time working teammate. Join the JED development team, and you can build your next JED as you dreamed about. NOBODY will stop you from doing that.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by gws » Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:36 am

The current one is based on a proprietary version of Fabric, without support from the original developers, and is showing his age. Who is at fault?
If Fabrik wasn't delisted from the JED for some silly pdf extension infringement the current owners might have been encouraged to develop a J4 version. Now it will just die and that is a shame.

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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by webgobe » Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:52 am

gws wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:36 am

If Fabrik wasn't delisted from the JED for some silly pdf extension infringement the current owners might have been encouraged to develop a J4 version. Now it will just die and that is a shame.
And you have entered to a minefield we are living on every single day...
Welcome!!!
There are rules. Rules agreed by the members of community running this at the time these rules where settled. May be good ones, or bad ones... time usually tells. (Or not.) One thing is - or at least MUST BE - clear, regardless: the fact that you contributed to Joomla project in any way - big or small, significant or not - does NOT entitling you to break those rules.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by mfleeson » Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:48 pm

Hi
As I am the current JED 4 developer and assistant team leader for the JED team, let me tell you how the model for extensions will be changing in JED4.
The new implementation allows extensions to have supply options, i.e. Free Supply, Paid Supply, Cloud etc.
Each extension shares a common description and fields and each supply type can override specific values for each type. Also reviews can be assigned to the supply option type, so that free reviews and paid reviews are both shown on the extension display page. The actual review scoring between paid / free is currently being developed so I can't give you that detail but what I can say is I have written the transfer scripts which separates free and paid reviews into their respective supply option version. If you want to work on Joomla 4 versions of your component and wait until JED4 then you will be able to add paid versions to your existing extensions and not lose the reviews (except where they are older than X periods - not sure what that will be yet, still being discussed).
More importantly, if you are a developer then please come and join the JED team and help us get JED 4 ready for release. Get in touch.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by Webdongle » Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:50 pm

mfleeson wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:48 pm
... Also reviews can be assigned to the supply option type, so that free reviews and paid reviews are both shown on the extension display page. ...
So if the free version stops being provided do the reviews for the free version still get removed thus removing the history? Or do they remain to show the integrity of the developer?
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by webgobe » Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:10 pm

After the X months (as Mark pointed out, the jury is still out on exact number) ALL reviews will be gone, regardless if they are for free, paid or whatever other version.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by sozzled » Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:37 pm

Thank you to both @webgobe and @mfleeson for your help. I appreciate the information you gave us and, whether one agrees with or not with the process, the rules are a probably a reasonable compromise.

webgobe wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:18 am
JED rules ... [were] adopted via a democratic process, by the former and actual JED members who are running the show.
One may debate the degree of "democracy" that exists within the J! project teams as much as people do debate the "democratic" involvement between Open Source Matters, Inc. and people who use J! products.

One example of attempting to garner a more inclusive user community that, in my opinion at least, failed was a survey conducted two years ago. That survey invited people's comments about proposals to investigate how the review system was working and whether changes should be made to it. The results of that survey were never made available to the public.

It was disappointing—if not insulting—to those of us who contributed to the survey that we had apparently wasted our time. So, while it may be true that JED development activities are undertaken "democratically", it's a form of benign dictatorship. I don't have anything against dictatorships per se but let's not dress things up by invoking "democracy"; it's like comparing democracy with many totalitarian régimes around the world.

Thanks, again, for your helpful explanations. I'm just a simple hobbyist/consumer and part-time developer (like most of the JED team members are, I'm sure) who volunteers my time for the community. It's a shame when volunteers are treated with disdain—bordering on ridicule and contempt by other people who act from a sense of entitlement—and are not shown appreciation for our efforts. So, thank you. :)
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by webgobe » Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:42 am

I can't speak for the whole project, but trust me, in JED we have a true democracy. I would not be here still if wasn't the case, trust me! I wish to have it across the whole project.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by sozzled » Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:56 am

When someone writes "Trust me", I'm reminded of Eddie Murphy in those Beverly Hills Cop movies. The JED may be somewhat democratic—if it is then it's the exception to the rule—but there's little else about how OSM operates that's accountable and transparent (and that's been the top criticism about the project for the past five or six years). I won't labour the point.

I will, however, remind people about the farcical survey that was run 2 years ago relating to the JED review system and how the results of that survey mysteriously disappeared into the ether. Simply because of that, I won't participate in "surveys" again.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by Webdongle » Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:48 am

webgobe wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:42 am
... in JED we have a true democracy. ...
Democracy of those selected for JED not a democracy of the Joomla community.


'a true democracy' my [censored]
sozzled wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:37 pm
...
One example of attempting to garner a more inclusive user community that, in my opinion at least, failed was a survey conducted two years ago. That survey invited people's comments about proposals to investigate how the review system was working and whether changes should be made to it. The results of that survey were never made available to the public....

Please do not insult our intelligence by saying JED is a democracy. It is not a democracy, it is a self governing body that sets rules for extensions that the rest of Joomla has to follow.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by webgobe » Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:09 am

Webdongle wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:48 am
Please do not insult our intelligence by saying JED is a democracy. It is not a democracy, it is a self governing body that sets rules for extensions that the rest of Joomla has to follow.
Well, we can start a debate about democracy as form of self governance if you like, but not that is the idea there. The JED is a self governing body working on democratic principles. That's was ALL I wanted/intended to say. And also it is a body which has a kind of "law enforcement" duties. You can't overlook this, so how it is perceived externally is another story. Nobody like the cops - unless you need to be defended by them. So, please, don't insult the JED members unnecessarily. You might need them around...

The issue of the survey:
sozzled wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:56 am
I will, however, remind people about the farcical survey that was run 2 years ago relating to the JED review system and how the results of that survey mysteriously disappeared into the ether.
IF you read the call for the survey again, viewtopic.php?f=262&t=973003 you will see, that is for the UPCOMING - yeah, still upcoming - JED4. Nobody promised, that the results of the survey will be used to change the existing JED3. JED3 is in feature freeze for some years for now, the last real functionality change was the addition of the new ticketing system, the rest done in the past years where mostly cosmetic changes, or changes which are there, improving the functionality, but not quite visible from the outside. So calling the survey initiative as a failure is a bit off. Yeah, you can call it as a failure AFTER the JED4 will be launched, and you will NOT see any of the results implemented. I will fully agree then with you, guys.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by webgobe » Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:17 am

Webdongle wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:48 am
Democracy of those selected for JED not a democracy of the Joomla community.
Ugh, I missed this. Well, I was NOT selected for JED. I APPLIED to be co-opted as a VOLUNTEER for JED. You are suggesting that someone - God, Putin, OSM's president of the chairmen of Pensacola's Old Boys Bridge Club - selected people to work as members of JED team. That's absolutely false, and suggest a truly non-democratic process. Anyone can be a JED member if meets some minimal criteria AND is open to participate in the collective effort this way. I should be really upset, that someone thinks this way about my personal involvement and commitment.
But I am just sad.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by Webdongle » Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:52 pm

I am saying that your use of the word 'democratic' is incorrect. JED is a governing body that elects it's own members and governs itself. The members are not elected by by the Joomla community yet the Joomla community are subject to it's rules. That is not democratic.

I am not questioning the integrity of the JED team nor am I questioning the rules.. I am simply stating that you using the word 'democratically' is incorrect. And gives the impression that rules are voted on by the Joomla community.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by webgobe » Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:57 pm

Webdongle wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:52 pm
I am saying that your use of the word 'democratic' is incorrect. JED is a governing body that elects it's own members and governs itself. The members are not elected by by the Joomla community yet the Joomla community are subject to it's rules. That is not democratic.

I am not questioning the integrity of the JED team nor am I questioning the rules.. I am simply stating that you using the word 'democratically' is incorrect. And gives the impression that rules are voted on by the Joomla community.
Hmm, first: I pointed out in one of above comments, that the rules where/are made by the JED members. Mostly. There are some lines we can't cross, we need approval from OSM Board, but basically that's happening. NEVER claimed, directly OR indirectly that the JED rules are the result of a "popular vote". So I don't see where I was wrong with this.The whole Open Source stuff is like this... Is done by small ants doing they part of the job without being directed/enforced to do that, based on what they individually think that is better for the whole community. It is NOTHING democratic in the process. Just works.

Secondly, when I said what I have said I was referring from the beginning to the manner this group is working. My mistake, that was not clear enough from the very first posting, but I corrected that immediately, making it clear, what I am talking about. And that's important, because we had in the past many examples, when the various bodies of Joomla weren't that 'democratically' lead and operating. And this was my most important point about all this, this was my core message. And having in mind this exact message I think the use the word 'democratic' was both correct and justified.

And the key question here: How you would do this in a BETTER way? I got you, the current one is not perfect, as a result we have critically and continuously understaffed, and "put there" in a non-democratic way. Great, agree. But if you criticize the actual system the fair approach would be to suggest an alternative, better way. A solution to the problem. You made me curious. I'd like to have this (and the whole Joomla project) running in a smoother, more democratic way. So I am all ears.

And doing the work I committed myself to, in the mean time. Just saying...
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by PhilTaylor-Prazgod » Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:32 pm

And the key question here: How you would do this in a BETTER way? I got you, the current one is not perfect, as a result we have critically and continuously understaffed
Like most web properties in the subdomains of Joomla.org - the sites/features/subsites should just be abandoned/removed and concentrate on the core code of Joomla, the CMS.

There is simply no need for a showcase, service providers, user groups, templates market, extensions, and all the other sub sites that are brainchild on one day and abandoned the next.

There are not enough dedicated volunteers for the core code, let alone all these extra sub sites... despite this CMS at one time powering 3% of the internet, you could count the contributors on less than 20 fingers...

Stick to the code. Stick to the core Joomla CMS.
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Webdongle
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by Webdongle » Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:48 pm

webgobe wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:57 pm
...
NEVER claimed, directly OR indirectly that the JED rules are the result of a "popular vote". So I don't see where I was wrong with this...
You were inaccurate by saying "rules where adopted via a democratic process". They were not, they were adopted as a result of a panel who are (in affect) self governing. The rest of the Joomla community have to follow those rules without a vote. Therefore, by definition, the process is not democratic.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by Webdongle » Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:59 pm

PhilTaylor-Prazgod wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:32 pm
...

There is simply no need for a showcase, service providers, user groups, templates market, extensions, and all the other sub sites that are brainchild on one day and abandoned the next.

There are not enough dedicated volunteers for the core code, let alone all these extra sub sites...
A lot of volunteers found git too complicated. Also there is imho a lot of snobbery with some of the devs. It has driven a lot of volunteers away. Add to that all the different chat channels for bugsquad with different conversations ... a right bloody mess.

But having said that we do need JED (as imperfect as it is) because there is at least some sort of quality control.
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by gws » Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:40 pm

Also there is imho a lot of snobbery with some of the devs. It has driven a lot of volunteers away.
+1 @ webdongle

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webgobe
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Re: Changing a Free extension to Paid

Post by webgobe » Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:25 pm

Webdongle wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:48 pm
You were inaccurate by saying "rules where adopted via a democratic process". They were not, they were adopted as a result of a panel who are (in affect) self governing. The rest of the Joomla community have to follow those rules without a vote. Therefore, by definition, the process is not democratic.
:p Yeah, this begin to turn into a riding on words exercise. Well, if I am thinking twice, I must say, that you're right! We, the guys (and girls) populating the gang named JED, upon an obscure pub-revolution have taken the control over JED, eliminating the democratic "forces" and now ruling over our kingdom in a very authoritarian, anti-democratic way! Good for us! We're ruling the JED!
Big deal, indeed. ROTFL.

Well, I am stopping this debate there. I have only one simple question for you: when you last time voted directly, in person for the traffic regulations, for example? Or you have your representatives in some legislative forum, where these things are solved, rules are made? And most of the people in that forum/organization/assembly are ultimately getting there, because their gang - often nicknamed as a "party" - actually "put them" in some obscure way on a list and/or nominated them as candidate without basically consulting with you directly? I feel for you, you must living in a pretty anti-democratic world. And, trust me, I know how that feels, I spent half of my life in such a dark world. ;)
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