Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

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popvulture
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Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by popvulture » Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:34 pm

Hello,

I have started to develop a site with a national UK newspaper. They are interested in using open source technology, so I am trying to find an appropriate CMS (and have been looking at Joomla, Drupal and Plone).

My question is - how scalable is Joomla? This newspaper has an archive of several decades of content needing placement online, and is likely to attract a significant amount of traffic. Are there any content rich, high-traffic sites that are currently using the CMS? Or is Joomla better suited to smaller scale projects.

I am unsure if the Joomla search function makes an index of the site or if it queries the entire database with each search. We will likely be using one server for the database and another for HTTP.

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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by joomlan » Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:42 pm

I am using Joomla for a 2 language online newspaper. One of the problems I am currently having is the performance. This could be related to my hosting. That's why I am moving to a dedicated server. I currently use a shared hosting and I had SQL process, SQL connection limitations. My database is almost 100MB and grows fast. I have not had any problems so far! I have like almost 20 new articles every day  !

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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by ircmaxell » Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:59 pm

Joomla is excellent for the job, especially if you use a form of content caching (such as my caching component)... The default search method queries the entire database with every search...  To create a caching search feature (one that caches search results for x amount of time (say 24 or 48 hours)) would be rather trivial to build.  You could also use a google site search feature... (for the google site search, check out my implimentation on www.bagsofcrap.com (the diggit box should be removed, I just havn't gotten around to it)...
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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by popvulture » Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:12 pm

My chief concern is that the site goes live and turns into a bit of a quagmire to run. The current site is running comfortable on microsloft technology, and to change over will mean pushing the boat out a little.

There is also 150 years worth (no kiddling!) of weekly editions on PDF which they eventually want available online, which might require the use of the PDF indexer mambot. However, it will likely require the use of an standalone search function.

Migrating this shedload of content and opening it up to the world is a leap of faith!

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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by Geoff » Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:27 pm

Are there any content rich, high-traffic sites that are currently using the CMS?
Yes. There are some references to them probably in this forum (can't remember right now). Joomla.org is one example though it might not be as "content rich" as you want.
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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by joomlan » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:30 am

Actually, Joomla is very expandable. For that particular search (PDF, html files..etc), I think you should use an external search such as Verity ultraseek. You can put that search in a static page and refere it in your Joomla. Moreover, if you want you could use external links to internal(joomla) pages. that's what I sometimes do too...

My quetions for ircmaxell :

I have over 100,000 unique visits per month and my sites get updated every day 3-4 times. How often should I cache my content for ? What specific settings should I do to gain max performance ? What settings should I do in MySQL,Apache, PHP specially now that I own my own dedicated server?

Thanks

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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by joomlan » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:28 pm

Hi  ircmaxell,

After I moved my site to a dedicated server, I am now trying to reinstall your great cache component, but I am getting this error.

Unrecoverable error "PCLZIP_ERR_BAD_FORMAT (-10)"

If I removed the com_page_cache folder, neither my site nor the Admin appears any more ! I need this component because I am running a newspaper and i have many readers and users. Could you please tell me how to fix it ?  I appreciate it.

Thanks

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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by ddrager » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:11 pm

popvulture,

The saying goes - "You get what you pay for." Joomla is a cheap, customizable CMS that is so flexible, you could make it become a very good newspaper CMS. However, be prepared to spend a lot of programming hours on it to get it to do what you want it to do.

The alternative is to buy a full-blown CMS that is targeted to a newspaper. You spend the big bucks on the software but after that there should be little programming you'll need to do yourself.

As far as Drupal vs Joomla and other CMS, some of that is just a matter of preference, you will find some people out there who have already done this comparison so you would find it beneficial to talk with them one on one - what they like, dislike, wished they did differently.

Here is a great article on a fairly large newspaper site that used Drupal to migrate their content to:

http://drupal.org/node/141187

and a Joomla vs Drupal comparison (Drupal Oriented)

http://drupal.org/node/150257

After you take all of your information - check out both and see what you like.

You might also want to check out http://www.bricolage.cc/, I believe it is what Salon.com uses.

Let us know how it goes!
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Joomla performance with traffic of over 1,000,000

Post by svettes » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:54 am

Hello there,

I'm considering suggesting joomla as an open source cms solution for a client because it's cheap & full of great/evolving extentions. The trafic on this site will easliy reach over a million users per day and could have most of these people connected at the same time, at least around 800,000 browsing content and around 200 users connected at once.

I'm wondering if good hosting is provided, can Joomla! handle it? We don't have the funds to invest in something expensive/customized, and I'm fairly experienced with joomla.

Also, is there a forum where freelance developers offer their customization services?

Thanks for your help,
Shannon

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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by ddrager » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:54 pm

Joomla should be able to handle this with some tweaking - including streamlining any components/modules used; installing caching components, and making your your servers can handle it. With that many viewers, you would probably want to go as far as you can in the way of server configuration - separate Web/DB server (as well as primary/slave DB setup); and possibly load balancing in the mix depending on the load on the servers.

For Joomla Freelancers check out http://www.joomlancers.com/ - it is a site set up specifically for what you are looking for.
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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by ircmaxell » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:56 pm

Absolutely.  Good hosting is 95% of the picture.  That load is prob a little on the high side for a single dedicated server, but it's prob doable if you get a server that's powerful enough and tuned properly.  I would definately run Lighttpd on something with that high of a load.  In my experiences with Lighttpd, Bandwidth will likely be your limiting factor...
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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by svettes » Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:09 pm

I was planning on getting a private server for security & bandwith reasons.. we need our own space lol. Here's what I was thinking of getting:
Processor - Opteron 1218Dual Core
Ram - 4go
Hard dr mem - 2x400go
OS - Fedora Core 6 + Plesk
RAID - Hardware
With FTP Backup, Plesk 8 and
Unlimited Traffic @ 100mbps bandwidth

It's going for about 200€/mo.... does that sound like it would do the trick? There are better plans, I picked an enterprise one that was 2nd to best...

Thank you for your VERY VERY fast and useful responses!! Hats off to a great support team & forum moderators!
Shannon

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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by ddrager » Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:19 pm

Sounds like a good server to start with -  maybe start with that, if the load is getting out of control, separate the database component from the web server.

I agree with ircmaxell, using lighttpd is a great idea but with Plesk you'll be using Apache; as far as I know it doesnt have a customization for it. You might consider ditching Plesk (and the monthly fee) and "rolling your own" server configuration with only the services you need.

If you install Plesk you not only get apache, but email, ftp, and other services you won't need for a dedicated site. The only tricky part is you then can't rely on Plesk for updates; and you'll need to manually perform the updates or hire a management company to do that job for you.
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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by ircmaxell » Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:03 pm

Well, That hardware looks decent.  I'd change a few things tho.  Make it dual processors (not just dual core).  Ram is decent (8GB would be better, but 4 will work).  Hard drive is wrong... Get 2x SCSI 15k drives.  The speed difference is worth it.
AS for the OS, don't use Fedora.  Use CentOS or RedHat Enterprise. 

I agree with the whole plex thing... Look into LXadmin Webmin (cheaper, and more flexable) if you must have a control pannel...
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Joomla + High traffic websites, Hosting solutions

Post by svettes » Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:33 am

Wow, I'm impressed with you guys... I've never been to a forum that gave such great support!

Now... any idea where I can find an extremely reliable host who offers those server options? One in France would be great... I'm leaving the company soon & won't be here to translate support emails or calls lol. I asked the same question on the joomlafacile.com forums... I'll post it here if I get an answer.

Over here I was using 1and1 - they're one of the best hosts on this side of the continent as far as I know, but they only offer Fedora & Plesk. The current hosting option for a site with almost no trafic is not working out so great... I'd suggest to anyone who's thinking of using them to ask about the number of sql processes/connections available before signing up. (I asked them & will modify this post with the answer when I get it.)

So just to be clear, for a high-traffic ultra performing capacity site, you guys suggest:

Joomla (bling bling bling!) with the ext lighttpd

Private or dedicated server (Linux) with:
Processor - dual processors
Ram - 8go
Hard dr - 2x SCSI 15k
OS - CentOS or RedHat Enterprise (not Fedora Core 6 + Plesk)
RAID - Hardware
Control Panel- LXadmin Webmin
Unlimited Traffic @ 100mbps bandwidth

Since you guys are the experts, maybe you can answer a few more questions?
- what's RAID? (I probably sound retarded now, but I'm not a server admin.. so I figured I'd ask, if it's complicated forget it.)
- Is there a standard way to check the performance of my server?
- If we don't go with Apache because of the lighttpd conflict, what should we go for?

Thanks again guys, you're the best!
Shannon

PS - Found this, is that along the lines you're talking about?

http://www.servepath.com/dedicated-serv ... server.htm

PPS - Also found this at 1et1.fr:

Processor - 2x Opteron 2216 Dual Core
Ram - 8go
Hard dr - 2 x 500 Go
OS -  Fedora Core 6 + Plesk ----- is fedora core a real problem? Can you explain?
RAID - Hardware
Unlimited Traffic @ 100mbps bandwidth
Last edited by svettes on Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by ircmaxell » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:22 am

Well, to answer your questions...
RAID - Redundant Array Of Independant Disks.  Basically you put two drives in the server, and it mirrors the data between the (fault redundant)... It also has a benefit of making reads slightly faster...
Performance - There are a bunch of decent benchmarking tools out there.  Everything from the simple "ab" (apache benchmark) to really elaborate load generators for Windows...
Server - Lighttpd replaces Apache.  It's a very lightweight webserver (light on resources, NOT throughput).  Check out these two articles (why I use lighttpd)
http://www.ircmaxell.com/articles/bench ... files.html
http://www.ircmaxell.com/articles/hosti ... he....html


Oh, and personally, I would stay away from 1&1... They are one of the worst hosts I have ever dealt with (in terms of support)...

As for that package, it's a LITTLE on the pricey side, but that's pretty close to on the money.
Last edited by ircmaxell on Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PS - Medium trafic hosting question...

Post by svettes » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:28 am

What about for a site with around 6Million visits/mo? (200,000 visits/day, say 30,000,000 page v/month)

Is a hyped-up system as necessary or do we not face the same issues with a bit less traffic?

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sub change?

Post by svettes » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:30 am

Can a moderator change the subject chain here to be something like "high performing websites + joomla" ? I had a hard time finding topics like this in the forums.

Thanks!

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Re: PS - Medium trafic hosting question...

Post by ircmaxell » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:55 am

svettes wrote: What about for a site with around 6Million visits/mo? (200,000 visits/day, say 30,000,000 page v/month)

Is a hyped-up system as necessary or do we not face the same issues with a bit less traffic?
Well, I'll give you an example
My server,
Dual Xeons
2 Gigs Ram
2x 10k SCSI

Is capable (and has done in real life) of over 20 million hits per day (php and static files combined).  That works out to around 5,000 simultaneous visitors... It's not impossible...
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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by svettes » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:20 pm

Thanks for the answers on RAID, hosting, etc. I think I've got a pretty good idea of what we need now. As for 1&1, I've had nothing but great experiences and no real hosting problems until this recent bout of "site not available contact admin" thing.

I asked them how many processes I could expect with my current plan & they said 12/micro second and that it was more than enough.

What's your guys' take on that?

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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by popvulture » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:27 am

ddrager wrote:
Here is a great article on a fairly large newspaper site that used Drupal to migrate their content to:
Drupal does look fantastic, and ideal in a lot of ways. My employers are keen to move with Joomla, though, because a site can quickly be deployed, containing eye-candy features. So, the task now will be to create a Joomla site in the most resource-efficient (yet content-flexible) way, and consider porting to Drupal (if feasible) at a later date.

I am keen to share my experiences and learn from others as I embark on what will be a massive redevelopment. I wonder how many other Joomla developers there are within these forums who work within news-gathering organisations - it would be great to create some kind of group to share knowledge.
Last edited by popvulture on Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by ircmaxell » Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:06 pm

If you want some info on efficiency of Joomla, check out http://www.joomlaperformance.com... 
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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by rusty1001 » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:30 am

Hi if not mentioned before ijoomla (i j o o m l a) have a good newspaper system,
check it out, I have not used it as yet but n may mind If I needed such a thing..cheers
hope this helps
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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by kaizen » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:35 pm

Not to sound like a traitor or anything  :(...

But everyone here is talking solely about performance and scalability but no one mentioned funtionality.  Media publishing is a different beast entirely than a blog or community site and a very different workflow and a much more granular ACL is involved.

You may want to seriously consider OpenCMS as well; it is heavier on the substance (content management) over style (Templating/CSS/Available addons) than Jomla is.  While it might be a bit less 'fun' to create templates for, it is very well suited to the workflow AND the efficiency of a high volume newspaper site.

And it's still open source so we can love it, too!  :-*

http://opencms.org
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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by svettes » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:46 am

I agree with you in some ways, I have not yet tried opencms because I've been so impressed with all joomla's great support & options. BUT.. it is lacking in some basic functionality imho.

Joomla would be a complete package for me if there was a way to tie content items to more than one category or section. I know everyone's going to say "DEEP POCKETS!!" to me, but I tried that & it was NOT the best solution for a newspaper website!! I had to recreate several links to each item to get the desired effect, it was VERY tedious & time consuming.

Not to mention DP does NOT support the details of the content item, such as publishing begin/end dates, and other information needed in the biz.

The extra options in the links made it confusing to tell if the layout of the item being shown was coming from the dp section, dp category, dp folder, item itself, item cat, item section.... what a waste of time to research THAT.

If joomla could fix that basic problem, I think it'd be a lot easier to create advanced search engines that are useful for these kinds of sites - not to mention others!

Content is NOT ALWAYS tied to ONE category! That is my one problem with joomla.

(well that, and I think that community builder or JACL Plus should be a core function - I've used these on every site ever made in joomla!)

Shannon

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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by kaizen » Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:07 pm

I mention OpenCMS only because it suits the needs of a newspaper workflow and ACL; I am not intimate enough with it yet to know whether it wouldn't suffer the same problem as far as a "one to many" relationship between articles and categories.  But J! is my CMS of choice and I use it for everything, so I have a lot of time and effort invested.  Plus I just love it  :-*

I wonder if a bit of creative thinking regarding the keywords might be an answer?  There are modules out there that can use keywords as filters for content, aren't there?  ("Hmmm", scratches head, "this is how extension projects get started..)  ;)  Or maybe you can use keyword filtering in the com_content or com_frontpage menulinks; I haven't given it a lot of thought but those are the first things that come to mind.

I agree that the initial exposure to Deep Pockets can make you pull your hair out, but I'd stay with it (and perhaps spend time at their forums; I remember using version 1 and once I got the hang of it, there wasn't as much work to do once you had things set up.  I imagine the newer version is even better, though I haven't had a chance to play with it yet.
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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by svettes » Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:56 pm

The search engine already works off of key words - no extentions necessary. But I would like to have the possibility to filter out certain content items via the menu - that doesn't yet exist! A menu that pulls content items based on key words... wonder if that would affect the performance since a search would have to be performed to acess a page....

Good idea just the same.

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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by joomvn » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:34 pm

From my experiment, the basic Joomla CMS is only suitable for small scale project (< ~ 1,000 article), however with modification it can serve a much bigger site.

My company has been developing http://vietbao.vn (Viet Bao = Vietnamese Newspaper in vietnamese)  a Joomla - powered site, and now it contains around 1 million articles and 100s thoudsand page views/day. The site is still in beta and running on a 2 x Opteron Dual Core server.

Joomla can not handle search function for the large site so we use Google site search.

http://vietbao.vn/index.php?vtmnu=on&q= ... %E1%BA%BFm
Last edited by joomvn on Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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+Viet Bao Mobile - http://pda.vietbao.vn&nbsp; (PDA version) http://wap.vietbao.vn (WAP version), Joomla based portal for mobile/handheld device.

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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by kaizen » Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:21 pm

Pretty impressive, joomvn, even if I can't understand a word of the content  :D...

Performance is impressive as well; I wonder if you could share a few of the tips you learned in optimizing a site that large?
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Re: Would a Joomla - powered newspaper work?

Post by peteniemela » Fri May 31, 2013 1:16 pm

Hi!

You are saying 8 gb of ram?
I understand this might be of high traffic newssite, but what are the requirements for a normal association site for example. Can't find almost anything about ram.
What I found was something like 32-64 megs (not gigs)!
So I am thinking of client who needs a new webhotel / shared host for joomla 2.5 with control panel (parallels plex) with 30 email accounts. Is 500 megs enough or does he need 1 gb? It costs 10 € more / month.


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