Joomla docs uneditable

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Webdongle
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Joomla docs uneditable

Post by Webdongle » Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:24 am

Parts of the Docs are now uneditable. This is against the whole concept of why the wiki format was chosen. example https://docs.joomla.org/index.php?title ... ection=T-1
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by ceford » Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:03 pm

Actually, you have misunderstood the way editing translations work. Your link quoted the English version of the page. That contains the text without translation markup and is indeed not editable. To edit the English version you must edit the version without a language suffix:

https://docs.joomla.org/index.php?title ... _Overrides

After editing that version must be marked for translation - that action creates or updates the /en version.

But there is something else wrong here: that url does not conform to the convention for naming Chunks. All those I know of have the Chunk3.x namespace (or Chunk4.x). Where did you find it?

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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by Webdongle » Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:26 pm

@Ceford
Perhaps I haven't explained properly.

https://docs.joomla.org/Help310:Extensi ... _Overrides
Create Overrides[edit]

Click on a component and you'll get all the possibilities inside that one component.
When I click to edit it takes me to https://docs.joomla.org/index.php?title ... ection=T-1
I can not edit
"Click on a component and you'll get all the possibilities inside that one component"
to read
"Click on a Component, Module, Plugin or Layout you will get all the possibilities inside that extension"
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by cmbay » Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:58 pm

Do you have permission to edit in the Template namespace? Parenthetically I note that the FuzzyBot has been involved in the past.
Charles

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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by Webdongle » Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:45 pm

cmbay wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:58 pm
Do you have permission to edit in the Template namespace? ...
No doubt that is a rhetorical question.

The whole point of this post is to point out that the Wiki used to be editable by all members but now that is not the case.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by ceford » Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:38 pm

I see your point. It is a while since I edited a chunk so I don't remember if it used to be different before a Wiki update a year or so ago. The chunk does contain some explanation: This page cannot be updated manually.. What you have to know is that you need to remove /en from the url to get the editable source.

Most of the Help screen chunks I am familiar with do not start with a header - you just see them as {{Chunk...}} embedded in the text. Perhaps this is no bad thing because editing chunks needs care - each is typically embedded in several pages, which is why they are chunks.

I think this is a failure of documentation. You can edit if you know how to!

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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by Webdongle » Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:22 pm

ceford wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:38 pm
.... What you have to know is that you need to remove /en from the url to get the editable source....
Nope doesn't work like that. I challenge you to give an editable link for that section
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by ceford » Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:18 am

Webdongle wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:22 pm
ceford wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:38 pm
.... What you have to know is that you need to remove /en from the url to get the editable source....
Nope doesn't work like that. I challenge you to give an editable link for that section
The editable link is:

https://docs.joomla.org/Template:Chunk3 ... _Overrides

This page was created in October 2021 and has the wrong prefix. It is a mistake! I don't touch anything from the J3 era but you can find it here:

https://docs.joomla.org/Special:PrefixI ... mespace=10

All of the Joomla 3 chunks should be in this list:

https://docs.joomla.org/Special:PrefixI ... espace=140

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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by Webdongle » Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:01 pm

https://docs.joomla.org/Template:Chunk3 ... _Overrides is not editable!!!
The edit link leads to https://docs.joomla.org/index.php?title ... &section=1
I am logged in but do not have permission to edit. That means that the page is not editable by many members.

The same is true of many of the name spaces. The whole idea of the wiki was that any member could add to it. That is no longer the case.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by ceford » Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:51 pm

I can edit the pages you provided links for. Can you indicate what you see that stops you editing? Can you go to your User Preferences page and tell us which Groups you are a member of? I am in:

Code: Select all

Member of groups: Autoconfirmed users, Translation administrators, JDOC Contributors, Users, Email Confirmed

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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by Webdongle » Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:22 pm

You do not have permission to edit pages in the Template namespace.
But that is my point. If I don't have permission then many members don't. The whole point of the wiki was that members could add to the documentation. But that is not the case now. Many parts of the wiki are uneditable by ordinary members.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by ceford » Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:08 pm

Webdongle wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:22 pm
You do not have permission to edit pages in the Template namespace.
But that is my point. If I don't have permission then many members don't. The whole point of the wiki was that members could add to the documentation. But that is not the case now. Many parts of the wiki are uneditable by ordinary members.
I see now! The Template namespace is reserved. It is only supposed to be used by those with higher authority who know what they are doing. It is supposed to be used for items such as the {{inuse}} or {{underconstruction}} templates. Not for article content or chunks. As I said previously, creating this chunk with this prefix was a mistake (not by me). I could change the namespace to make it editable by normal users. But I would also have to check all the ramifications and I don't usually touch J3 stuff. Do you actually want to edit this Chunk?

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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by Webdongle » Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:07 pm

I did but not bothered. I don't add much to the wiki so it's not important to me. However it kind of makes a mockery of open source. Yet another step that lessens the contributions of ordinary members.

I've tried making my point several times but it has turned into "There's a hole in my bucket dear lisa" conversation.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by Hotdog » Sat Aug 05, 2023 5:43 pm

I want to help with documentation but am very new at it. So far, I limit my efforts to spelling, basic grammar, etc. Is there some description or tutorial regarding documentation? For example, what are "chunks"?

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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by Webdongle » Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:10 pm

http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
"When I'm right no one remembers but when I'm wrong no one forgets".

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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by ceford » Sun Aug 06, 2023 6:32 am

Useful list of articles on Joomla documentation:

https://docs.joomla.org/J4.x:Documenter_Links

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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by dziller » Sat Sep 30, 2023 3:45 pm

@Webdongle
Let me add a few words to what Ceford said.
You can't expect every page in a wiki to be editable by every visitor. Of course, all content pages are editable by registered and logged-in users. Like any multi-user system, the wiki has a user group management system built in (you should be familiar with this from Joomla). Pages that serve the structure, appearance, or administrative tasks in the wiki are only accessible to authorized user groups.

Ceford has already explained to you that the wrong namespace was used when the original page was created. The author used the namespace reserved for wiki templates, even though the content of the page refers to Joomla CMS templates. The correct namespace would have been "Chunk". However, since Joomla 3.x is now EOL, we will not spend any more effort on the outdated and possibly inaccurate J3 documentation.
Now let me analyse your link at the beginning of the thread and show why even administrators shouldn't edit this particular page.
https://docs.joomla.org/index.php?title=Template:Chunk3x:Extensions_Templates_Templates_Create_Overrides/en&action=edit&section=T-1
This part right after the title is important: "/en".
It means that this page was automatically generated by the wiki's translation system. You can see this in the version history: The author is "FuzzyBot".
If you go to the actual wiki page (ceford already posted the link above),
https://docs.joomla.org/Template:Chunk3x:Extensions_Templates_Templates_Create_Overrides
you will see that the "/en" suffix is missing
This page would be fully editable (in the correct namespace).
@cmbay I think this also explains your point that "FuzzyBot" appears more often as author.

@Webdongle If you send me a PN with your wiki user ID, I will be happy to check what user permissions you currently have on the wiki, and if you want to contribute more to the wiki, those permissions can be extended if necessary. I'm not on the wiki very often, but I've noticed your many helpful posts here. People with your experience can certainly make valuable contributions to the JDocs.

@Hotdog I welcome your intention to contribute something to the documentation. Ceford has already given you some initial links. If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to contact me via PN.

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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by Webdongle » Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:02 am

dziller wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2023 3:45 pm
...
@Webdongle If you send me a PN with your wiki user ID, I will be happy to check what user permissions you currently have on the wiki, and if you want to contribute more to the wiki, those permissions can be extended if necessary. I'm not on the wiki very often, but I've noticed your many helpful posts here. People with your experience can certainly make valuable contributions to the JDocs....
Thasnks for that but you miss the point. It was only security related pages that required higher permissions to edit. But now even some of the 'simplest' pages can not be edited by registered users.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by dziller » Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:20 pm

It was only security related pages that required higher permissions to edit. But now even some of the 'simplest' pages can not be edited by registered users.
This is not correct - all regular content pages are editable by registered users who have confirmed their email address.
If you can provide an example of your claim, I will be able to check where the error may have occurred.

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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by Webdongle » Wed Oct 11, 2023 4:20 pm

https://docs.joomla.org/Help310:Extensi ... _Overrides
Notice that there is no language specified in the url
edit 01.JPG
And the wording

"Create Overrides

Click on a component and you'll get all the possibilities inside that one component.
"

Can not be edited without elevated permissions.
edit 02.JPG
Not that I would want to change that text but it serves as an example of what I am saying. There are other pages where users need elevated permissions to edit non security text.


Addendum
Removing /en from the edit url so it's https://docs.joomla.org/index.php?title ... ection=T-1 still does not allow an ordinary user to edit simple text
edit 03.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by ceford » Wed Oct 11, 2023 4:57 pm

I think the answer to this question is fairly simple: it was created in the wrong namespace (one of six). We could just change the name space - but we have to find where the chunk is used and fix all instances. I can do that but will give you chance to comment before doing so. Meanwhile, I can look at the other 5 instances.

Seems I already did that for one J4 Chunk - but at the time was not working on J3 Docs so ignored the J3 Chunks.

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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by dziller » Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:59 pm

@ ceford
Your offering is commendable, but you know as well as I do that we have more important work to do.

@ Webdongle Your 3 examples exclusively concern pages that have to be assigned to the outdated and no longer supported Joomla version 3.x
As I said in the previous post:
However, since Joomla 3.x is now EOL, we will not spend any more effort on the outdated and possibly inaccurate J3 documentation.
I will not encourage anyone to invest in outdated pages. These pages are a thing of the past - let's concentrate on maintaining the current pages, avoiding errors and repairing them where necessary.
If you yourself feel it necessary to correct these old pages, then I can get you the necessary permissions. But I still don't know your Jdocs ID.

As long as you can't show me pages of the current J4+ releases, I will concentrate on other, more important work.

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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by Webdongle » Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:24 pm

The fact that they are outdated is irrelevant. They prove the point
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by ceford » Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:04 am

I moved the chunks and corrected the chunk tags in this page. However, ...

This particular page is an example of "chunks gone made"! The headings themselves have been included as chunks which means you can't edit it and it does not include the following paragraphs, so you can only edit the page as a whole. And you have to find the individual chunks to edit and translate. Complete madness!

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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by dziller » Thu Oct 12, 2023 6:47 am

Webdongle wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:24 pm
The fact that they are outdated is irrelevant. They prove the point
I'm beginning to get the impression that you're not interested in improving Joomla's documentation, but in insisting on your false claim.

The following statements have been made about this one erroneous page (read correctly: your three screenshots are of a single page)
  • it was mistakenly included in the "template" namespace
  • a "template" page is specially protected and can only be edited by authorised user groups
  • The outdated page is no longer maintained and does not support your claim that there are restrictions on editing content pages.
  • You have not yet proven what information needs to be corrected so urgently, which is why you are making such a big deal out of it.
As far as I am concerned, everything has been said: EoT

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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by Webdongle » Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:34 pm

dziller wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 6:47 am
...
I'm beginning to get the impression that you're not interested in improving Joomla's documentation, but in insisting on your false claim....
Not at all! I am very frustrated that you don't comprehend what I mean. This is becomming a "there's a hole in my bucket" conversation.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by ceford » Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:45 am

To go back to the original post:
Webdongle wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:24 am
Parts of the Docs are now uneditable. This is against the whole concept of why the wiki format was chosen. example https://docs.joomla.org/index.php?title ... ection=T-1
This is true but not quite accurate. Parts of the Docs have never been editable by users without the required permissions. Specifically, pages in the Template namespace require Administrator(?) privileges. That is intentional and intended to protect the integrity of the whole wiki.

The article in question was wrongly created in the Template namespace and has now been moved to the correct namespace, so the link above leads to a Creating... page.

There is an article on Namespaces here: https://docs.joomla.org/JDOC:Namespaces

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Re: Joomla docs uneditable

Post by dziller » Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:33 am

Webdongle wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:34 pm
Not at all! I am very frustrated that you don't comprehend what I mean. ...
Perhaps it is because of my inadequate knowledge of English that I cannot express myself as precisely as in my mother tongue.
Let's try to summarise the conversation so far from my point of view.

In your first post, you complained that you couldn't edit a certain section of a page.
There were several reasons for this:

1) The attempt to edit an automatically generated page is always blocked (recognisable by the "/en" suffix).
2) The page was in the "Templates" namespace. Pages in this namespace are used in Mediawiki for the design of pages, paragraphs, text modules and anything else that affects the look of a page. It is therefore necessary that these pages can only be modified by a specific user group. The similarity of the names to the term "template" in the Joomla CMS probably caused the author of the page to choose the wrong namespace in this case. As a result, a regular user is not allowed to edit the page directly. For every page in the wiki, there is the possibility to write down your own suggestions on the so-called talk page (discussion). If the talk page does not yet exist, you will be redirected to an empty page that you can fill in. When you save, this talk page will be created and automatically assigned to the relevant page.
3) The wiki allows you to edit a section directly by clicking on the edit link. We have noticed on several occasions that this option does not always work as intended in the wiki (especially when the link redirects to a "chunk"). You are advised to use the edit button from the parent page's action menu https://docs.joomla.org/Help310:Extensi ... lates_Edit.
4) This chunk was incorrectly assigned to the templates namespace (which brings us back to point 2).

Let's move on to the "out of date page" point:
You are probably aware that versions J4.4 and J5 are due to be released this month. There is a lot of important work to be done between now and then so that the documentation and help pages are fully available. We need all the help we can get.

The J3.x releases will be EoL from August 2023. This also means that the documentation will no longer be maintained. Only obvious misinformation will be corrected.
Since the page you reported is displayed correctly, I stand by my decision that we should concentrate on more important tasks.
Ceford has kindly taken care of the chunk anyway, and changed the namespace of the chunk. It can now be edited by any regular user of the site https://docs.joomla.org/Chunk30:Extensi ... _Overrides.
Since chunks are regularly used on several pages starting from the definition, it cannot be excluded that this correction will lead to errors on other pages, as the link syntax on these pages is now incorrect https://docs.joomla.org/JDOC:Using_chun ... lp_screens.


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