80k loaded on every page for java not wanted - pls more control on that

[newart]

I'm testing joomla 1.5 for making it faster than ever as I need a site with a minimum load of data.

The problem is about the 1.5 framework of joomla, when you load a page you load also mootools javascript files:
.../media/system/js/mootools.js
.../media/system/js/caption.js

I'm using a simple template, every page has around 14Kb of data loaded and for those java files you have to add other almost 80Kb.

14Kb vs not wanted 80Kb - so where is the joomla flexibility about mootools! We have built a new framework full of a lot of small files with a concept in mind, fast loadind, more control and easy dev and so on. If you need a full mootools package for the back end you can use that files but in the front-end It's important to avoid a load of data if unnecessary!

I know that "Mootools is considered to be the official JavaScript framework of Joomla! 1.5" but you can develop in such a way that you can use what you need when it is necessary. It's the idea at the top of our framework. You could download a "slim" specific file by a mootools folder only for that specific operation. All that for avoiding to see activated java not in use in that page / site.

Hope this post can have replies by devs...

[pollen8]

its not loaded on every page, just once after which its cached in the browser. I've not looked at whats packaged inside J1.5's mootools distribution but you are probably right in that you could break it down into the mootools core and plugins and then include them seperately, per component/module/mambot.
i don't know whether the extra processing hit of working out what was needed for each page would outweight the load time

[newart]

its not loaded on every page, just once after which its cached in the browser.

if cached, yes. If your site is seen worldwide (I mean in the tech-gap side of the world especially) the problem is also to the first page! Or in general for all visitors that see only 1 page (they read only 1 page and they are a lot!) of your site.

I've not looked at whats packaged inside J1.5's mootools distribution but you are probably right in that you could break it down into the mootools core and plugins and then include them seperately, per component/module/mambot.

I hope this is a solution as I think that all joomla has been built with a lot of files for different works, so why not different mootools for different works? And if you like all mootools you can "hook" the full file too... more flexibility, more control, more joomla.

i don't know whether the extra processing hit of working out what was needed for each page would outweight the load time

me too, and I hope to see an expert vision about that. I maybe can find out a bad solution for me (to delete or not to delete mootools from my site) but I'd like joomla finds a good solution for everyone.

[AmyStephen]

Thank you Amy for your indeep sight! I have another issue to share with you and it isn't a problem of bugs... in my mind, before a stable release, well, I'd like to see some "improvements" before "all is done, sorry" version,

e.g. --> http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,231332.0.html

Newart -

Some estimate there are nearly 2,000,000 Joomla! websites in existence. There are over 150,000 forum members in the Joomla org site, alone. So, certainly we have resources needed to get things done. No one should suffer needlessly or wait for someone else to take care of their needs. If there are things we want done - let's get after it! Find others with common interest and start making things happen. Nothing need stop the Joomla! community.

Amy

I agree with you, but in that specific issue the problem is a core one... and I don't like hacks and/or forks! But as you certainly know nothing is perfect in our world 

I'm going to come over here and answer you, rather than continue to take the RC4 celebration off track.

Newart -

We all have things about Joomla! we'd want done differently. All of us. All 2,000,000 websites and 150,000 forum users.  Want to hear my "wish list?"  But, to suggest that Joomla! v 1.5 shouldn't roll until you are satisfied that your specific issue is taken care of seems a bit unreasonable to me. If Joomla! v 1.5 doesn't meet our needs, we don't have to use it. Plain and simple.

There are other choices besides hacks and forks for those serious about solutions. If we really want something, nothing will stop us. We can take some initiative to do more than simply post our complaints in the forums. We can deeply analyze the problem and offer alternatives. Alternatives offered as patches are best, of course.

And, yes, in some cases, hacking the code is the answer. It's also the beauty of the GPL - we *can* and we can share those results, as well. Many times, that is exactly how core improvements are introduced - from hacks that become so popular it's obvious their value and then they are included into core. It's the open source way.

Don't code? Don't have to. Hire it done. Don't want to pay for that? Must not really need it, then.

Certainly, let us share what we want improved with Joomla! and let us discuss it openly in the forums. But, let's also be careful not to discourage contributors by hi-jacking celebration threads with these types of comments. It is not the right time, nor the right place to talk about our wish list. To me, making statements that a release should not happen until your request is met is out of line. It's not nice and it's not helpful and, honestly, it's not something I would expect from you. So, I know you are feeling discouraged but please, don't be.

Right now, it's time for our community to pull together and support one another by contributing something of value, ourselves. This is a time to celebrate an important milestone that we are finally reaching. It does not mean we are "all is done, sorry" - it means we have a big success under our belts, and on the enthusiasm that comes from that victory, momentum can build to do more.

Please consider my comments in the positive light intended.
Amy

[newart]

Amy, you're misunderstanding my stupid example. I've helped joomla in every possible way as I started from the begin of the Joomla foundation and so I have no "guilty". Well, please let me discuss this basic topic openly in the forums... please consider that it was only an example and not a "must-to-do-it" issue. (As per your information I resigned from the Q&T team for lacking of time - the same problem I have now for replying to you.)

But if you ask for a reply by me in that right thread (not here, it's a technical one and you're posting nothing to help us) I can post my strong belief in Joomla project! A lot of joomlers have thanked me for my free helping hands (not only by posting). However I hope not to discourage contributors with that single example in a post of mine. In Italy we say: "nothing is perfect in our world", that is the perfection exists only in the Heaven...

Please read my post in a positive way, all right?!

I hope that somebody can solve this problem because it's a focal point for sundry sites situated in poor regions of the world (internet has to be for everybody) and I'd like to help some friends of mine in Africa or Mindanao using joomla: we need more flexibility from Joomla about mootools (also by separating more the admin part from the live one). I opened this thread because IMHO is an important one for Joomla.

[AmyStephen]

I hope someone can solve this problem, too. And, I hope *you* are one of those people who do. I would never discourage people from opening threads like this one to seek out others who feel the same way and are committed to develop a solution.

Joomla! v 1.5 will release without all of our wishes inside. But, you should take that in a "positive way." Perhaps calling it an "all is done, sorry" version was poor word choice? Joomla! will not ever be "done" unless people stop working together building solutions.

Good luck with this! It sounds like there are many good reasons to work hard on a solution. Let those reasons motivate you into digging into the code and finding real solutions.

Amy