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SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:12 pm
by undoIT
Are there any plans to eventually make readable, keyword-containing SEF URLs a core component in Joomla 1.5, either by incorporating one of the existing options (i.e. OpenSEF / Artio JoomSEF) or by including a new component to accomplish this?  It is very useful to have clean URLs created in this way.  However, trying to get everything working with what is currently available usually requires a lot of effort and headache.  It seems that when something goes wrong, one can often expect it to be related to the SEF package they are using.

The reason I'm asking is that if readable SEF URLs were a core component, I think a lot more Joomla developers would focus on creating components and modules that are compatible with the SEF function.

The way it is now, you have to choose the SEF component based on the extensions you plan to use, and then hunt down hacked thirdparty sef_ext.php files etc. to make everything work.  And even still, there might be a few links lurking somewhere that are broken.

I did a search and didn't find info on this.  Sorry if it is a duplicate post.

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:37 pm
by Jinx
Simple answer is yes. Is that enough or do you also need to developers-technical-answer ?

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:47 pm
by undoIT
haha.  okay.  that is good news.  is there any ETA on when this will be available, or is it just going to be ready when it's ready?  I'm assuming all the bugs will need to be taken care of for 1.5 before the stable release, and then development on improving SEF will continue.  Having a stable, clean and readable URL solution as part of the core will be a huge improvement :)

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:41 am
by Jinx
It's already part of 1.5, if you download a nightly install it and have a look at the url's com_content generates you will be able to see what I mean. don't forget to turn SEF on, and in the request plugin make sure 'build with real names' is on too.

As an exmample 1.5 does something like :
http://localhost/joomla15/index.php/con ... content/41

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:46 am
by undoIT
Awesome!  I downloaded the initial beta release and played with it a bit.  I've got a couple websites just waiting for Joomla 1.5 and a couple more I'd like to migrate to 1.5 if possible.  It is exciting to know that real names SEF is already included.

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:31 pm
by eyezberg
Very good news, can't wait for willebils writeup on beta-2 once it's out to find out about other hidden goodies :)

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:23 am
by skyjuice
thx god :D i will love to see this features in my next site :D Powered by Joomla 1.5 :D

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:17 pm
by pixelsoul
:D wow this is great did not expect this in the core in 1.5 anymore.

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:50 pm
by Jinx
Sometimes it's just worth to have a look at what we are doing, instead of ranting about it  8) This has been in the core since october btw  :pop

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:04 pm
by eyezberg
Jinx wrote: Sometimes it's just worth to have a look at what we are doing, instead of ranting about it  8) This has been in the core since october btw  :pop
Yes, but never has there been any mention of the System Request Plugin and what it does.. Ignorance is no excuse, but no communication isn't either :)
Also, I guess you need to set "Build with Real Names" to Yes, AND activate mod_rewrite above, right?

Anyway, glad it's there, now we now.. include the info in the next blog, I'll also add a pic to the screenshots blog now ;)

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:34 pm
by Jinx
Hi Joe, good to see you back :) You don't need to activate mod_rewrite, works fine without it. Just turn SEF on make sure the plugin is published and voila all good to go.

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:57 pm
by eyezberg
I'm not back, I'm pirating someone elses WiFi (unsecured) to go online.. :)
Still looking for a new house around Geneva, so no Internet :(
Planned for next month though -hopefully!

Screenshot now online: http://joomla15.[URL banned].com/2007/01/se ... -core.html :)

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:39 pm
by trichnosis
i'm so happy to read this . sef url has become nigthmare for last 2 weeks because of opensef:)

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:52 pm
by Jinx
Anything wrong with OpenSEF ?

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:40 pm
by eyezberg
In French, we'd call it an "usine a gaz", meaning there's much too many "features" in there which are not directly related to SEF URLs. Too much stuff all over the place, for me personally. I had one look, and never used it. Which doesn't mean some of it's functionality is bad.. ;)

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:56 am
by Paintdog
Jinx wrote: Anything wrong with OpenSEF ?
OpenSEF works like a charm for me...

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:56 pm
by Jinx
1.5 will not to be able to offer you the same functionality that OpenSEF does out of the box. We explicitly choose not to do tha since we don't believe a one solution fits all is possible. Different websites have different needs. 

What 1.5 does is offer alot of flexibility for third party developers to create humanly readible URL's. Flexibility is offered at two fronts, first of all component developers can define their own URL rewriting rules in 1.5 for their own component and second developers can also create plugins to globally change the URL rewriting behavior of 1.5. We hope that this will cover both the needs of third party component developers and from projects like OpenSEF and others.

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:42 am
by DocMartin
The way it is now, you have to choose the SEF component based on the extensions you plan to use, and then hunt down hacked thirdparty sef_ext.php files etc. to make everything work.
- hope this won't be the case with the hyperflexible J 1.5 as well. Indeed an important reason for standardisation.
- looks promising. Though I hope this doesn't mean that ItemIDs issue persists, leading to Search Engine Unfriendly multiple URLs for same content.
Looks, to me, just a small step from enabling ability for URLs such as http://www.domain/category/item or http://www.domain/category/item.html.

OpenSEF works great for me. Easy enough to just use features you want.
Different websites have different needs.
- I'm curious re websites that would require URLs different to those OpenSEF can generate, as surely gives a strong, well-considered range of possibilities.
What 1.5 does is offer alot of flexibility for third party developers ... component developers ... developers ... developers ...
So, fits the "Joomla! - by Coders, for Coders" slogan I've suggested before. Never mind, perhaps, those who might just want to use this "easy to manage"  :P cms to create great websites, with strong, Cool URLs as foundation. 
Joomla - by Coders, for Webmasters, still something of a pipe dream?

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:01 am
by louis.landry
Quite a number of webmasters use and love Joomla! ... I know lots :)

Louis

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:25 am
by DocMartin
Might be interesting to survey them re desire for great, Cool URLs built into Joomla core.
:D

searching for info on cms, just come across forum post by a webmaster, inc:
I don't understand all these CMSs out there, none seem to be designed for publishers.
...
Back when I was using Mambo it was incredibly obvious the designers hadn't ever ran a content site. They had many updates, but the basic layout was so unfriendly to the users. It seemed to me that the developers wanted to do "something cool" instead of "something useful".

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:30 am
by louis.landry
I doubt very seriously the outcome would determine whether or not they thought Joomla! was "for" them though...

Louis

Joomla - by Coders, for Coders

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:51 am
by DocMartin
But you haven't asked all these developers yet?
If webmasters are serious re creating great websites, will be an issue. Views of this thread - and the one on when SEF will be integrated in Joomla core - surely indicate this.

Also from forum thread I've just come across:
The reason that I am checking out drupal is because I have read many many times that drupal is very SE friendly ... I also have read that Joomla for instanc is not .

Now, I know that there are SEF modules / components for Joomla wich should make the URLs SE friendly. Drupal seem to have this coming 'out of the box'...
Joomla does need quite a lot of work compared to Drupal to make it SE friendly, although with the addition of the SEF and metadata components plus a template that uses a lot of CSS, it can come close to Drupal.

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:56 am
by louis.landry
While aspects of what you say are certainly valid ... and no one on the development team doesn't want to improve things ... I would say that the number of sites using the software and the number of webmasters using the software would indicate that in fact webmasters don't feel that this software is "not" for them.

The power of our system is that it allows for things like openSEF to exist ... as well as artioSEF or whatever other SEF solution you want to deploy.

You don't have to use what you don't want to.  If openSEF works for you... use it.  If something else works for you... use it.  If you don't want to use Joomla! don't use it.  It is all about the power of choice.

Louis

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:15 am
by absalom
Loius,
louis.landry wrote: The power of our system is that it allows for things like openSEF to exist ... as well as artioSEF or whatever other SEF solution you want to deploy.
This sort of 'passing the buck' mentality persists across the entire project. Sure, there's been some positive gains for 1.5 in terms of human readability, but really, Mambo 4.6 Stable had it inbuilt 3 to 6 months ago (not to mention how far advanced Drupal and WP are beyond Mambo and J!). Whilst it may make business sense to open the market to alternative solutions (in this case, OpenSEF, Arturio, etc..), the underlying problems never get upgraded in line with current day web practices, solved or resolved because they are always 'alternative' instead of the standard and unable to be effectively integrated.
louis.landry wrote: You don't have to use what you don't want to.  If openSEF works for you... use it.  If something else works for you... use it. If you don't want to use Joomla! don't use it.  It is all about the power of choice.
Two ramifications you're not considering:
  • If none of the SEF solutions are proficient due to the limitations on core by the core
  • You still want to use J! and have the best of both worlds (SEF and J!)
What choice is there in this instance ?

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:19 am
by louis.landry
Simple... the choice is to use what you want to and what serves you best.

Done with this one now.

Louis

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:26 pm
by compass
Joomla does need quite a lot of work compared to Drupal to make it SE friendly, although with the addition of the SEF and metadata components plus a template that uses a lot of CSS, it can come close to Drupal.
Thats pretty laughable if you think what CMS you are using out of the common open source options makes a significant difference in SEO.

I would actually argue that the devs have done the best thing here, laid the foundation. No disrespect to the devs, but I would imagine 99.99999999% of the devs working on Joomla, drupal, mambo.. whatever, are not hard core SEO experts. It seems to me the team has been wise enough to leave the development of specific SEO extensions to others. Then WE have the freedom to pick and choose rather than have a solution (which might not be the best option) forced on us.

Go Dev Team!

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:38 pm
by absalom
compass wrote: I would actually argue that the devs have done the best thing here, laid the foundation. No disrespect to the devs, but I would imagine 99.99999999% of the devs working on Joomla, drupal, mambo.. whatever, are not hard core SEO experts. It seems to me the team has been wise enough to leave the development of specific SEO extensions to others. Then WE have the freedom to pick and choose rather than have a solution (which might not be the best option) forced on us.
Barrie, let's compare the freedom of choice to delivery of a good product. Wordpress doesn't need any "specific SEO extensions" to make it work. Neither does Drupal. Merely because you percieve you have the freedom of choice doesn't mean that choice should stagnate or limit development (as seen by the showdown between J!, Drupal and Wordpress at Alledia).

In fact, the only marketplace I've found outside of J/Mambo in terms of requiring external 3rd party solutions (commercial or otherwise) for SEF is the .Net and Coldfusion space. Most PHP and Rails based apps these days know how this is done and do it inbuilt.

In the end, however, it comes down to demonstration and evidence, especially when we're talking about the quality and design of code in the SDLC.

Why is the path chosen able to demonstrate itself as the best option ?

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:31 am
by compass
Joomla 1.5 wont need any 3rd party extensions to "make it work" either. The output above will be quite sufficient for any needs you have with respect to SEO. Further refinements would not be a worthwhile use of dev time and resources imho.

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:25 am
by absalom
compass wrote:
Joomla 1.5 wont need any 3rd party extensions to "make it work" either. The output above will be quite sufficient for any needs you have with respect to SEO. Further refinements would not be a worthwhile use of dev time and resources imho.
OpenSEF wouldn't be coming out with a version for 1.5 if the inbuilt did "make it work" correctly, Barrie. The mere fact there's alternatives says the inbuilt isn't good enough, if nothing else. The dilemma is that the alternatives remain alternative..

Re: SEF URLs as a core component for Joomla 1.5

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:15 am
by trichnosis
Jinx wrote: Anything wrong with OpenSEF ?
in fact , opensef works perfect but one of my site has large content . that web site has over 12.000 items in jos_content table and opensef_rc5 is not usefull (high cpu and mysql usage, really high) for large web sites . i hope this bug for large web sites will be fixed in next opensef version