Joomla! and usability

For Joomla! 1.5 Coding related discussions, please use: http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general
Forum rules
Please use the mailing list here: http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general rather than this forum.
deleted user

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by deleted user » Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:50 pm

I think you've all got worthwhile points and have learned some things from the interchange, including the war stories, and of course Tonie's welcome insights. Point especially taken about energy monsters, eh isarg? Cut mcsmom some slack. I hope you do get involved on the documentation and other things.

I'm not sure I knew (and definitely forgot) about the OSM part of the forum. For me, the google groups, community section of the site, and twitter (especially Amy's despite her blocking me on it) have been helpful at uncovering where things are going and how the sausage is being made. But I do think users and third party developers could use some kind of "third place" too, to absorb some of the energy monstrosities. Enough said about that.

AmyStephen
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion
Posts: 7056
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by AmyStephen » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:22 pm

isarg wrote: Here, I have asked for audience of the powers that be, had some response of meaining and thats appreciated. I would surely like to discuss the issues I have raised.

<snip>

I guess we need have a sit down and discuss all options and the enlightenment from this thread that has been displayed.
Over the past three years, well over 200,000 people joined these forums. It is simply impractical to expect that the core team (assuming that is who you might mean?) could sit down and discuss this thread with you, or any specific topic one of us might raise.

What we do in this project is improve Joomla! and make that software available to anyone in the world who wishes to download it and use it. That's our goal as we work together - and there are lots of real opportunities for people to help with that, if they so desire. Doing that is how you begin to get to know others and better understand how (and why) things work like they do.

Unfortunately, it's simply not feasible for the core team to spend time with each of us and discuss our topics of interest. I hope that makes sense. It is difficult sometimes to imagine the enormity of this project - but - it's huge.

Hope that helps,
Amy :)

deleted user

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by deleted user » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:54 pm

I think that all goes without saying, Amy. What I believe isarg was saying was, he needs to sit down and talk with his team, not the joomla team.

AmyStephen
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion
Posts: 7056
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by AmyStephen » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:55 pm

isarg wrote: Long message... :)

Can we PM or something between Core and a few folks? If the core is interested, lets hash some of this stuff out and build a plan.
The posts are long - but it's pretty clear to me that isarg is looking to talk to core team. It's just not a reasonable expectation. For new people, that might not be clear.

isarg
Joomla! Intern
Joomla! Intern
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:57 pm

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by isarg » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:33 am

dpk wrote:I think that all goes without saying, Amy. What I believe isarg was saying was, he needs to sit down and talk with his team, not the joomla team.
Thats correct. I meant I need talk to our team. We have four developers on board with one being a enterprise project manager again, having worked with Xerox paperless Office... very well aware of publishing, document management, workflows and then some.

We have three others "on the wire" if we need em' all from a regional users group essentially. Getting developers is easy here, Xerox, Kodak, unemployment, two nationally known tech colleges.

We'd simply rather not expend our time re-inventing wheels for the two major areas we need deal with. But, if thats what we have to do we can do so. Its already been suggested, instead of taking heaps of hours trying to find documentation and reading through source code to find what we need... to just do it right.
Last edited by isarg on Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

AmyStephen
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion
Posts: 7056
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by AmyStephen » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:42 am

Excellent - I look forward to your contributions!

User avatar
darb
Joomla! Ace
Joomla! Ace
Posts: 1362
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:57 pm
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Contact:

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by darb » Mon May 04, 2009 11:37 am

AmyStephen wrote:Darb - Please think twice before ....

Thanks,
Amy :)
This is nothing personal to anyone. Apology if it looks like that but is not what I meant. I have to think three times next time :-) but I am from another culture though where we are very open about everything.

Coming back to topic again. There were some request about how Drupal doing and examples.

About usability.

I have check example of how Drupal doing and there is good video but long to see here The Buzzr Demo Video - Making Drupal Usable http://blip.tv/play/g5UV+fpXiqF3 http://www.d7ux.org/

Pointing out that "users want to change the page they are viewing" which Is my experience too. Well have a look at the video.

--------------about tags ----
There is also an article how to use tags (hierarchies, labels etc what you call it) where you better structure them where "tags are instead grouped into areas analogous to Drupal's taxonomy vocabularies which are associated with "Entities" (People, Companies, Cities, etc.)"

This is my idea also how to use tags systems without a simple flat set of free tags but also with browsing structure where you also in the best of the worlds could make a tag location based info with other Joomla comps as well. Mosets Tree 2.1 now doing this and many others but that just make them work for o n e component so how to make it for the core and for all comps?

http://www.lullabot.com/articles/buzzr- ... al-usable.

Introduction to Calais info
However, rather than just being a simple flat set of free tags, the tags are instead grouped into areas analogous to Drupal's taxonomy vocabularies which are associated with "Entities" (People, Companies, Cities, etc.), "Facts" (a person's Position or relationships between entities), and "Events" (Sporting, ManagementChange, etc.). The format passed back is in an open, semantic web-compatible format (Resource Description Framework or RDF) which then allows you to form intelligent relationships between articles based on the subject matter. This can be used for things like assisting with SEO, getting better search results, creating an "Other articles like this" block, pulling in external data from other sources that speak RDF, or whatever else you can imagine doing with this kind of information.

Wouldn't it be great also if Joomla could get experienced people like isarg for core devs too?

All the best.
Success in the long run Its not about the code its about the people and community that's make it!
Its not what you say its what you do that matters!

Darb - aka ssnobben

AmyStephen
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion
Posts: 7056
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by AmyStephen » Mon May 04, 2009 1:07 pm

Darb -

It's not a matter of being open, but rather a matter of respect and understanding the bigger picture of how "being a contributor" works.

Let's take your examples - as an example ;-). I love the Lullabots - am a big fan of Angie Byron and Jeff Eaton. That video you are sharing is of a commercial offering Lullabot hopes to market. You are very correctly pointing out that this commercial offering will make using Drupal *far* easier for less technical people. Angie is lead on Drupal 7.0 and Jeff is a key contributor to that project. So, does that make Buzzr a conflict of interest?

Of course, my response to that is absolutely not! Basically, that line of thinking suggests that the more you give, the less entitled you are to use the fruits of your effort to form a business. And yet, everyone else in the world who did not contribute *is* entitled to do so without anyone questioning their motives or crying out "conflict of interest."

Does that not dawn on you how incredibly unfair that is to contributors? Does it not also make sense that if those were really the rules, it would bring an end to free software contributions?

Darb - we can raise our ideas about what we want Joomla! (or Drupal, for that matter) to become. We can provide suggestions - analysis - evidence - comparisons - video - audio - testimony - and even predictions of doom and gloom. But, when it comes right down to it - making Joomla! better requires someone who has invested time in learning how to develop, who feels motivated and is financially able to contribute, and decides they want to provide Joomla! with a specific capability.

In all sincerity, I invite you to learn to develop. I made that decision a couple of years ago and am now able to help action my ideas. Experienced developers are certainly warmly welcome in Joomla!. But, even having developers with less than Andrew Eddie's level of expertise helping create extensions and work on the Bug Squad - is also helpful in seeing Joomla! improve.

Thanks,
Amy :)

deleted user

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by deleted user » Mon May 04, 2009 3:20 pm

It depends how interest is defined. Core developers on a FOSS platform who create commercial products for the FOSS platform have obvious advantages in the platform's market. They are actually making the market and can do a lot to affect how it grows, shrinks, and whose coffers it most readily fills.

Core developers on a FOSS project with commercial products related to the FOSS project will surely take pains to make the core develop in such a way that it supports their commercial products, or vice versa. Nothing wrong with that; it would be stupid to do otherwise. But they can go further: they can leverage their advantage in the commercial markets surrounding the core platform to drive paying customers to the commercial product. They can even make obstacles of different kinds for competing commercial products. Likewise, their core platform's trademark can be used as a carrot and/or stick to influence what other commercial entities do or do not do. There is nothing "wrong" with that either; it can be done. But if there are objections and attempts to push things another way, you can't cry foul then either.

If the primary core dev "interest" is defined as "making the best possible FOSS product" and the primary commercial dev interest is defined as "maximizing profit" obviously these two interests come into conflict for core devs with commercial enterprises. Does "conflict" mean "illegal" or flatly "wrong"/"forbidden"? No, of course not. It is more an issue of what should/should not be done in light of how the market of users and third party developers respond. Do they go along, or do they engage in forms of resistance and counter-influence? All that is possible and an ongoing reality for markets/communities such as Joomla's.

As long as the core/commercial tightrope is seen as such--something to be negotiated (openly, one would hope) in light of many different interests, perspectives, and possible consequences--then it's being dealt with in a professional and even-handed way. Whatever actually is done by core devs with commercial enterprises, if the end result is largely perceived as good commercial products supporting development on the core--most people are unlikely to complain.

The emotional logic of "I give" therefore "I can do what I want, how dare you question me" however widely felt it may be has no relevance at all beyond one's own sense of self-entitlement and is for that reason generally omitted from public utterances by people whose business and public standing relies considerably on how they are perceived in their market.

The Joomla "community" is a market, not a fan base, even if not everyone thinks about it that way. A fan base is a market, and a fickle one at that, being almost entirely based on perceptions and emotions.

I'd also add that excessive control of any market by too few interests tends to always damage the market and reduce it to a parasitic system that can be criticized from a standpoint of economic pragmatism and broader long-term interest, and also from a social-ethical standpoint: how should we relate to others? What should we do, what should we not do? When people ask these questions, it is because they are concerned about the arrangement of power and advantage in a market or community in which they have a stake. These are always legitmate questions, coming from legitimate interests.

AmyStephen
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion
Posts: 7056
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by AmyStephen » Mon May 04, 2009 3:38 pm

dpk wrote:It depends how interest is defined. Core developers on a FOSS platform who create commercial products for the FOSS platform have obvious advantages in the platform's market.
Exactly. And, this opportunity is available to anyone who invests years and years into a project. There are benefits to contributing. You understand the software. You can provide excellent products and services due to that understanding. If I were to hire someone to help me innovate creative solutions with Joomla! or Drupal, who better than a key contributor?

Yes, indeed. There are reasons to contribute - and benefits for doing so. Get involved and make things happen for the community, first, and then, for yourself!

Amy :)

isarg
Joomla! Intern
Joomla! Intern
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:57 pm

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by isarg » Mon May 04, 2009 8:37 pm

dpk wrote:It depends how interest is defined. Core developers on a FOSS platform who create commercial products for the FOSS platform have obvious advantages in the platform's market. They are actually making the market and can do a lot to affect how it grows, shrinks, and whose coffers it most readily fills.

Core developers on a FOSS project with commercial products related to the FOSS project will surely take pains to make the core develop in such a way that it supports their commercial products, or vice versa. Nothing wrong with that; it would be stupid to do otherwise. But they can go further: they can leverage their advantage in the commercial markets surrounding the core platform to drive paying customers to the commercial product. They can even make obstacles of different kinds for competing commercial products. Likewise, their core platform's trademark can be used as a carrot and/or stick to influence what other commercial entities do or do not do. There is nothing "wrong" with that either; it can be done. But if there are objections and attempts to push things another way, you can't cry foul then either.

If the primary core dev "interest" is defined as "making the best possible FOSS product" and the primary commercial dev interest is defined as "maximizing profit" obviously these two interests come into conflict for core devs with commercial enterprises. Does "conflict" mean "illegal" or flatly "wrong"/"forbidden"? No, of course not. It is more an issue of what should/should not be done in light of how the market of users and third party developers respond. Do they go along, or do they engage in forms of resistance and counter-influence? All that is possible and an ongoing reality for markets/communities such as Joomla's.

As long as the core/commercial tightrope is seen as such--something to be negotiated (openly, one would hope) in light of many different interests, perspectives, and possible consequences--then it's being dealt with in a professional and even-handed way. Whatever actually is done by core devs with commercial enterprises, if the end result is largely perceived as good commercial products supporting development on the core--most people are unlikely to complain.

The emotional logic of "I give" therefore "I can do what I want, how dare you question me" however widely felt it may be has no relevance at all beyond one's own sense of self-entitlement and is for that reason generally omitted from public utterances by people whose business and public standing relies considerably on how they are perceived in their market.

The Joomla "community" is a market, not a fan base, even if not everyone thinks about it that way. A fan base is a market, and a fickle one at that, being almost entirely based on perceptions and emotions.

I'd also add that excessive control of any market by too few interests tends to always damage the market and reduce it to a parasitic system that can be criticized from a standpoint of economic pragmatism and broader long-term interest, and also from a social-ethical standpoint: how should we relate to others? What should we do, what should we not do? When people ask these questions, it is because they are concerned about the arrangement of power and advantage in a market or community in which they have a stake. These are always legitmate questions, coming from legitimate interests.
However, OSS is apparently making changes to the Licensing arrangements starting in July.

From Friday to Monday I've spoke with 4 differing commercial firms who are pretty unhappy with a variety of J! related development and progress issues. We are arranging a conference call between these principles for next week. Its becoming clear that Joomla's direction and that of commercial interests are not the same and there are considerable amounts of frustration. Thus its appearing that a new Portal/CMS app may be coming down the pike that is unrestrictive in license and contribution. So stay tuned... Apparently there are several operations Darb who are essentially "fed up" with the various baloneys while others capitalize on their work and they are treated like "It is what it is".

You and I as well as others all around these forums have pointed out concerns and issues. The mantra remains the same. If I understand things correctly we'll be seeing an "It is what it was" as the market you note is in for a surprise essentially of their own creation.

User avatar
ianmac
Joomla! Virtuoso
Joomla! Virtuoso
Posts: 4784
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:01 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by ianmac » Mon May 04, 2009 8:47 pm

isarg wrote: However, OSS is apparently making changes to the Licensing arrangements starting in July.

Do you have a source for this 'apparent change in licensing'? It would be pretty hard to change the license of Joomla!, so I'm not sure where this rumour is coming from (I have not heard it).

Ian

AmyStephen
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion
Posts: 7056
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by AmyStephen » Mon May 04, 2009 9:09 pm

All are invited and encouraged to participate in the Joomla! development. If you want to become a part to learn more and help improve Joomla!, consider joining these email lists and start contributing code and ideas and get to know others. Developer involvement is very welcome.

* Joomla general development - including third party developers who want to ask questions http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general.

* Joomla CMS development. To get involved with core development of 1.6 related to the CMS http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms.

* Joomla Framework development. To get involved with core development of 1.6 related to the framework development. http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-framework.

* Joomla bug squad - To help with the current release, identifying bugs, creating patches, and testing patches http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad

Joomla! is not changing it's license. It always has been and is licensed using the GPL. The GPL isn't something everyone is comfortable with - and developing for platforms that use a preferred license can be the best option for some people.

I'm not sure what else to say. I do hope you all find what makes you happy with a project - I hope that's Joomla! but if it can't be there are certainly - as you say - other options.

All the best guys,
Amy

isarg
Joomla! Intern
Joomla! Intern
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:57 pm

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by isarg » Mon May 04, 2009 9:42 pm

ianmac wrote:
isarg wrote: However, OSS is apparently making changes to the Licensing arrangements starting in July.

Do you have a source for this 'apparent change in licensing'? It would be pretty hard to change the license of Joomla!, so I'm not sure where this rumour is coming from (I have not heard it).

Ian
One development house told me that the Extensions Directory will no longer be allowing any commercial or otherwise extensions that are enciphered (aka Zend Guard, Ion Cube) and that extensions that use any Joomla extensions code (aka: Like say from the contacts component) must adhere to GPL.

There were other concerns noted that its really not my charge to discuss. I was told these have been discussed and that results were considered unsatisfactory. If what was conveyed to me is in fact true (I could essentially care less) they would be frustrating to me as well in their position.

In our case, we just want get what we need get done. Done. But, if these principles want to work with us then an enterprise level CMS would not be something we'd shy away from. I've been asked to speak with Yahoo inc. as well, two development leads in Y!Tools Division are very old friends of mine from the Onsale Exchange transition to what was then Yahoo Auctions/eCommerce.

So... see what happens. Nice thing about the Internet and Open Source is there is always room for more and thats what keeps pushing better and more capable open applications platforms into the hands of people.

deleted user

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by deleted user » Mon May 04, 2009 9:52 pm

That's old news. All GPL here, all the time.

AmyStephen
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion
Posts: 7056
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by AmyStephen » Tue May 05, 2009 12:40 am

isarg -

Here's a post that will help you with the Joomla! Extensions Directory requirements. Commercial and "no charge" GPL extensions will continue to be available on July 1. Non-GPL extensions - and encrypted extensions - will not be listed on the extensions directory.

http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leade ... -2009.html

Good luck with your project - it sounds very promising and I agree with your statement that open source "keeps pushing better and more capable open applications platforms into the hands of people." Pretty cool. I have 25 years in IT, lots of corporate and government background, so I understand your interest - we've seen a great deal of cool change.

If you want to further discuss off-line, I would be happy to talk to you if you think I can help you learn about the project. Feel free to PM me if you wish. That's not to discourage discussion - if you want to open another thread for this topic, please understand you are free to do that, too. But, we should return to the topic of "Joomla! and usability" since forum rules call for us to stay on topic and I'm not certain we could stray further than we have. :P

Thanks for your patience as you learn about the project - and I ask for a little faith as you figure out who we are - I'm not on core/OSM but I will tell you I stand by this project and the integrity of those who volunteer here. I also welcome you to join us if you choose to develop on the Joomla! platform.

dpk - I welcome you to get more involved, as well. You are bright - obviously interested in the project. Why not join the Bug Squad and meet people? See what work is being done and who people are and what they do?

Back to usability?

Amy :)

deleted user

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by deleted user » Tue May 05, 2009 1:11 am

I appreciate the gracious response to isarg, and as for the bug squad, I've been on it a little while. Posted on it last week actually.

AmyStephen
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion
Posts: 7056
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by AmyStephen » Tue May 05, 2009 1:44 am

Excellent! Thanks very much for your contributions - I think that's excellent!

User avatar
darb
Joomla! Ace
Joomla! Ace
Posts: 1362
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:57 pm
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Contact:

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by darb » Thu May 21, 2009 5:57 pm

About usability.
Generally I think end users want to browse a site structure and then also be able to modify the page fast and easy that they are on. Making a user friendly KISS and pedagogical front page interface is a great challenge.

I think of 4 Joomla improvements examples for making it as easy as possible for creating, deleting and change layouts of page modules also. Maybe some examples that the community have done for this already can show the way to make things better.

Examples in Joomla JED.

Easy edit in front end
1. Edit on front end directly like this "Front-end article manager - Article creator","Front-end article manager system - The deleter module", "Easy module texter" Joomla comp.
Let users add and edit text, files, images, etc... in any module positions directly from front. http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions ... 84/detailshttp://extensions.joomla.org/extensions ... 50/detailshttp://extensions.joomla.org/extensions ... 85/details

Demo http://www.b-elektro.skj.no/

Easy article submission: http://articlemanager.thefactory.ro/

Drag and drop modules layout change on pages front end
2. Move the modules on that page redesigning the layout- drag and drop modules example like this Joomla addon.
http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions ... 37/details

Demo: http://www.recly.com/demo/smartsite/ user:test pw: demo

Set up pages to different structured categories hierarchies front end (- nodes)
3. Setting up page to different categories with a section/category tree view. Use the ArtCats module http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions ... 04/details with sub-category support (http://www.orware.net/joomla-projects/s ... v1594.html )

Taxonomy,vocabularies, terms, term fields, RDF, Labels et al terms definitions mapping on front end
4. Make tagging mapping definitions structured for pages directly front end (labels, vocabularies, terms, taxonomy or whatever) so users can make structured definitions of contents and their hierarchies.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About fields in Drupal

I believe that fields just will be an core extension now into the core of Drupal as CCK had this before and now its support more core futures like "attaching fields to nodes, users, remote data objects, and any other type of entity. " ?
http://dc2009.drupalcon.org/session/field-api-drupal-7

Drupal 7 now includes the Field API which provides "CCK functionality" in core. The Field API supports attaching fields to nodes, users, remote data objects, and any other type of entity. This session introduces the Field API for module developers that want to define custom node content types and fields or field-enable their own object types.
Success in the long run Its not about the code its about the people and community that's make it!
Its not what you say its what you do that matters!

Darb - aka ssnobben

User avatar
darb
Joomla! Ace
Joomla! Ace
Posts: 1362
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:57 pm
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Contact:

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by darb » Fri May 22, 2009 8:25 am

Here is also an example of white paper "Make navigation in the Article Section easier"

http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=500&t=278723
Success in the long run Its not about the code its about the people and community that's make it!
Its not what you say its what you do that matters!

Darb - aka ssnobben

User avatar
darb
Joomla! Ace
Joomla! Ace
Posts: 1362
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:57 pm
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Contact:

Re: Joomla! and usability

Post by darb » Sat May 23, 2009 9:52 am

Example how you change a page in Typo3 easy.

http://www.webempoweredchurch.com/filea ... t/demo.mov

http://jeffsegars.com/2008/10/19/fronte ... -typo3-43/



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
( Comparing Typo3 with phpWebSite creating articles old reference 2006-03-25.
http://www.kiesler.at/article~view~174~page_num~4.html )
Success in the long run Its not about the code its about the people and community that's make it!
Its not what you say its what you do that matters!

Darb - aka ssnobben


Locked

Return to “Joomla! 1.5 Coding”