Shady organization

[bzcoder]

I was just perusing the bylaws of open source matters, which then took me to the faq, and I have to say I get more and more uncomfortable the more I read these things.

First off, there is the board which is "elected" - but who is it elected by? The "Community Oversight Committee", which a brief perusal of the forums is designed in such a way that people can easily be added or step down from the committee. How people get onto this committee is not gone into detail - and repeated questions on this forum and elsewhere get the same non-answer.

Now, personally, I'm used to open source projects run by fiat and that doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when a group claims to try to run openly and goes through a pretense of being open but is not. Basically, don't lie to people and you won't get a bad rep. Claiming "openness" means you answer the whole question, if you realize answering it makes your initial claims not accurate, you revise them.

Secondly, the claim that your not a non profit because their primary source of income is advertising which can't be collected without taxation. Bogus claim here. That doesn't prevent you from being a non profit, it just means that you won't get the benefits of non profit status for that income and must pay taxes on it just as you do now. The downside of not being a non profit, or the upside if your shady, is that you don't file annual public returns detailing income and outlays of cash, donations, top payments to employees, contractors, and board members, etc.

So while it may have made sense based on the "a lot of paperwork to file for no benefit" reason initially, at this point it just demonstrates a continued desire to hide your activities from the public- especially when combined with shady non-answers to the organization structure.

And then just look at the solicitation for recommendations. Again, everything is hidden behind a cloth. It may be an honest baby step towards openness, but truly, if your not willing to be open don't insult everyone's intelligence by claiming to be open. It does not take any more coding to make a form with public results as it does with private ones - it is a conscious choice not to do so.

Personally, I always assumed Joomla was run the way most open source projects was, by a group of enthusiasts who put their time and effort into it, and run it as a benevolent dictatorship.

Nothing wrong with that, but please don't insult my intelligence with these transparent lies. If you really do want to move to community involvement, make the switch, but half measures just make the whole thing look shady.

[dhuelsmann]

Secondly, the claim that your not a non profit because their primary source of income is advertising which can't be collected without taxation. Bogus claim here. That doesn't prevent you from being a non profit, it just means that you won't get the benefits of non profit status for that income and must pay taxes on it just as you do now. The downside of not being a non profit, or the upside if your shady, is that you don't file annual public returns detailing income and outlays of cash, donations, top payments to employees, contractors, and board members, etc.

Come on - do a little bit of basic research before you jump on a topic you obviously don't understand. OSM is a not for profit Type B organization incorporated in the State of New York. A type B organization in New York is a little unique in that it is a not for profit organized for charitable purposes whereas a Type C is a not for profit that is not organized for charitable purposes. Only the State of New York has this distinction. OSM has decided not to pursue 501(c)3 Federal Status as a charitable organization because its primary source of income is advertising revenue which is considered unrelated income and is subject to much higher Federal taxes which then does not go towards benefiting the project. OSM actually pays significantly less Federal taxes organized as a regular corporation rather then a 501(c)3 organization. Note that OSM does publish its Federal Income Tax filings which can be found here http://www.opensourcematters.org/polici ... lings.html. OSM has no employees nor does it compensate board members or officers.

First off, there is the board which is "elected" - but who is it elected by? The "Community Oversight Committee", which a brief perusal of the forums is designed in such a way that people can easily be added or step down from the committee. How people get onto this committee is not gone into detail - and repeated questions on this forum and elsewhere get the same non-answer.

Spend a little time reading here http://www.joomla.org/announcements/gen ... rship.html and you will see that the Community Oversight Committee was originally the Core Team and those members now make up the Committee.

Shady: •immoral or illegal •suspicious •unclear or purposely misleading •dangerous - Which one of these possible meanings did you have in mind?

[HarryB]

OSM Federal Tax filings also available here for all the world to see, even for those who have no clue what an OSM or Joomla! is!

http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990s/99 ... search.php

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays or whatever else floats your boat this time of year!

[AmyStephen]

The Joomla! organization and OSM are definitely not shady. Please be careful with accusations you make. There is nothing even in your post to support a claim of wrongdoing. Very uncool. It's okay to ask questions, try that approach next time.

[unleash.it]

Come on bzcoder, do you really need to get so emotional over it? You have some points. I too think it's the title of OSM is a little ironic considering some of their stances. But situations like these are complicated and I'm sure people have formed their opinions over time, and their viewpoint probably feels just to them. I just happen to think some of them are wrong Although, on the other hand I agree that the community cannot possibly take part in all decisions, and that sometimes transparency on every last thing can certainly be a pain in the -.

Comments like yours really achieve nothing. They do more to piss people off rather than get them to think about it. I've seen things like "noisy minority" bandied about, and when I see comments like yours it's hard to disagree. If you want to change someone's mind there are two ways. One is through respectful dialog. Of course when "let them eat cake" is the only dialog you get, revolution is the only alternative. But I think there's been attempts at compromise which is a good thing. There's still a ways to go (and it may never happen) to end the feeling that participating with Joomla is like going back to high school.

Joomla does have its share of people who seek drama and what not. Because of that, some people I think have hardened way too much and have became overly sensitive. They're ready to assume people are asking for trouble or are "trolls" far too easily. The only way Joomla is going to become a better place is if the teachers of this high school (ie. OSM, moderators, core team, etc.) learn to lighten up... or step down. I personally don't "dislike" anyone I've met at Joomla, so it would be great if the former happened. I think in this case the "teachers" need to make the first move and show some tolerance and compromise, unless of course they want a Joomla community consisting of just them. Show peace, and peace will eventually come in return. I've never seen the kind of arguing that gets down around here elsewhere! Sure I see negative posters other places (Joomla in no way corners the market ), but it has more than its fair share.

Lastly the religion that everything must stay on topic (and this can and probably will be construed by some as being off topic but I don't care because it isn't off topic. PROBLEM SOLVING is the overall topic of this debate), and I'll even throw in meritocracy just for kicks, because its definitely all related and inseperable with the issues of transparency. It's very strange to me that I know I have a lot of value I could offer, but I feel very disrespected when all of a sudden I'm having a conversation and my topic is closed, where I know without a doubt I was constructively contributing (along with many others) but I'm scolded and accused of basically being a troll or something, by irate people. I mean I have 13 years of web design and development experience and I think I'm a very reasonable, polite and respectful person. Yet nowhere else I go do I get treated or see others treated with the kind of disrespect that (sometimes, I of course won't say always) happens here. The ONLY reason I come back, is because there are many members of this community who I learn from and respect, and I still try to offer my help in return. Lastly, I shouldn't have to prove myself by being around long enough to get invited into an old boys club. Just take a look at my website, look at what I've done, notice my Joomla experience, talk to me, whatever... You're throwing away a lot of talent if you only take people seriously who have previously already done a lot for Joomla (at least according to your way of judging it). Definitely raises the barriers.

[bzcoder]

As usual, the typical transparent "we are open" bunch of half truths and evasions.

"Don't be emotional about being lied to"...why the heck not?

Let's take my claims, and the usual half truth deception.

I pointed out that the process of how the individuals who actually get to vote on the board of directorys are appointed is not gone into detail.

In response, the half truth of how those people were INITIALLY appointed is brought up. But since those people are not the current individuals, as membership in that group has changed - my point stands and the "it's written in black and white" is shown to be an outright lie.

OSM is closed, shrouded in secrecy, and insults my intelligence by making claims to the contrary.

Like I said, I have no problem with a benevolent dictatorship. Just go with that and don't claim to be "open".

By the same token, I pointed out that by avoiding becoming a 501c OSM doesn't have to publish details of their incomes and outlays. As refutation, tax returns are pointed out. Completely different beasts. Go to Guidestar and check out what true open organizations publish.

Lastly, as a non profit OSM can be legally compelled by any member to actually follow your claimed processes. As a corporation, only the board can compel OSM to follow transparency rules....and since transparency rules may show them in a bad light I'm not seeing it happen.

In the end.... OSM is a shady organization. This may be due to ignorance and neglect, but the fact remains, OSM prefers the shadows and avoids from sunshine and transparency.

Your right, nothing is going to be accomplished, people who don't want to change won't. The only thing here is it is right out in the open - I've pointed out the half truths and deceptions and the only refutation was to repeat them - demonstrating that the lying is most likely deliberate.

Embrace being a benevolent dictatorship and stop trying to lie about how you make decisions and you won't face this in the future.

[dhuelsmann]

Welcome back - wondered what happened to you.

By the same token, I pointed out that by avoiding becoming a 501c OSM doesn't have to publish details of their incomes and outlays. As refutation, tax returns are pointed out. Completely different beasts. Go to Guidestar and check out what true open organizations publish.

You must not be reading the 990's that have been published. Try the 2008 report - one of the most complete disclosures I have ever seen.

Go to Guidestar and check out what true open organizations publish.

Been to Guidestar and checked out several. Not much different then what has been published here and on the OSM site.

Lastly, as a non profit OSM can be legally compelled by any member to actually follow your claimed processes. As a corporation, only the board can compel OSM to follow transparency rules....and since transparency rules may show them in a bad light I'm not seeing it happen.

You might want to check on your facts here. OSM is a New York non-profit as I stated originally. What it is not is a Federal 501(c)3 organization. Under either circumstance you (member) would not have any legal standing to compel following "transparency rules".

And here is even more reporting of what OSM is doing here http://www.opensourcematters.org/news.html

[AmyStephen]

With respect to Dave, I'm going to go ahead and post, too, since I added a few more links that might help bzcoder. (And I spent all that time gathering info for him/her - I want to share it now! hehe!)

Let's take my claims, and the usual half truth deception.

I pointed out that the process of how the individuals who actually get to vote on the board of directorys are appointed is not gone into detail.

Edit: this next paragraph was part of bzcoder's comment, but not included as a quote.

In response, the half truth of how those people were INITIALLY appointed is brought up. But since those people are not the current individuals, as membership in that group has changed - my point stands and the "it's written in black and white" is shown to be an outright lie.

In the June 28th Announcement, entitled Joomla! Project Leadership, in the Governance section, it is explained about the Community Oversight Committee (CoC) oversees OSM, how that group has evolved - how it might continue to evolve - who the individuals are - and where you can find more information about OSM.

On OSM's site, members of the board are named, as are the members of the CoC.

Recently, we were invited to nominate people for the OSM Board (I nominated 4 individuals) and it was clearly explained in the first sentence that the CoC are the ones who elect new members.

There has been *a lot* shared on this process - but it can be hard to keep up with information. Does what I shared help clear up the question of who elects the OSM Board members? Does it help you see that - yes - this has been shared several times, already? If not, what is still confusing on the process? Let's clear it up.

OSM is closed, shrouded in secrecy, and insults my intelligence by making claims to the contrary.

Like I said, I have no problem with a benevolent dictatorship. Just go with that and don't claim to be "open".

I agree that OSM has lacked transparency and many of us have called for more information. Thankfully, OSM also agreed! On December 4, Ryan indicated that OSM will increase its transparency and he invited discussion in the forums - and (most importantly) he posted meeting minutes back TWO YEARS on the OSM Web site.

Many pointed out that the notes are not very detailed and there is an acknowledgment of that and agreement to provide more, going forward. The effort I have seen thus far I am very satisfied with.

By the same token, I pointed out that by avoiding becoming a 501c3 OSM doesn't have to publish details of their incomes and outlays. As refutation, tax returns are pointed out. Completely different beasts. Go to Guidestar and check out what true open organizations publish.

We are given a very detailed account of 2008 financials. There could be more detail, I suppose, but I'm personally satisfied with what has been shared.

In the post, it is explained why OSM did not seek a 501c3 status. I'll let you read the explanation provided rather than misstate the explanation, but roughly it has to do with sources of income as a percent of total, and how the IRS judges 501c3 status. I have a degree in Accounting and find the statements to be very reasonable.

Also, the post very correctly points out that we are an International community and 501c3 status only helps those of us in the United States be able to deduct donations from our income tax. If you look at the very small percentage of donations, you must admit, that's a small subset of people.

Do you have any basis for your allegations that OSM is just trying to hide information from us? If so, I am interested in hearing you support your case with facts or something other than speculation. I am willing to hear you and hope you will share these facts, or at least admit, it's just a gut feel you have.

Lastly, as a non profit OSM can be legally compelled by any member to actually follow your claimed processes. As a corporation, only the board can compel OSM to follow transparency rules....and since transparency rules may show them in a bad light I'm not seeing it happen.

See above where I linked to OSM agreeing to share more information, opening a forum thread to welcome our comments, and offering two years of meeting minutes. They *are* adapting to our requests. They have also agreed that future notes will have more substance to them.

In the end.... OSM is a shady organization. This may be due to ignorance and neglect, but the fact remains, OSM prefers the shadows and avoids from sunshine and transparency.

Your right, nothing is going to be accomplished, people who don't want to change won't. The only thing here is it is right out in the open - I've pointed out the half truths and deceptions and the only refutation was to repeat them - demonstrating that the lying is most likely deliberate.

Embrace being a benevolent dictatorship and stop trying to lie about how you make decisions and you won't face this in the future.

You've honestly pointed out nothing except that you don't trust OSM. That's fine. See if the links I shared helped answer your questions. If you have facts on your allegations, please share. If you have questions, please ask. If you have a point that makes sense, I'll join you in your pursuit of something better.

Amy

[unleash.it]

The point I was trying to make is that I agreed with some of your points, but that being provocative is not the best approach. The discussion that did have some positive moments basically ended around the holidays because it descended into bickering and locked topics.

The way I see it is that it's Joomla's right to be as transparent or opaque as they like. Don't forget they are a group of people who one day got together on their own and started a project. They happened to be generous enough to make it available for all of us to download, whether we contribute or not.

"However", and big "however", everyone (the Joomla team and the community) needs to realize that there is a symbiotic relationship between the team and the community (which includes everyone from 3rd party developers to forum commentators and everyone in between). It didn't just form on its own, it formed at the request and invitation of the Joomla team since the very beginning. Without this relationship, Joomla could simply not exist, or it would certainily be nowhere near as big.

If Joomla wants what's best for itself, it will need to start having a lot more trust and respect with its community... and not take comments like these overly personal. This includes more transparency and erring on the side of trust over some of the fears it may have (some justifiable). For open source relationship to flourish, good will, transparency and significant give and take are an absolute must.

So I didn't see any problem with your questions, just the way you presented them. For myself, Joomla was my first experience with open source. 3 years later, I now have a huge investment in learning and using it, so I can relate to the fact that it's not easy to extricate yourself and just go elsewhere if you're not satisfied. I wish and still have some slim hopes that Joomla will finally get it that it needs to open up and do things that it may have considered taboo in the past. Things seem mixed right now. Some new gestures have taken place as mentioned and here evidenced by Dhuelsmann's diplomacy (who's on the OSM board if you didn't know). There are indeed some positive changes... but then I have still seen a lot of signs of of scapegoating too in other areas.

I think the biggest problem is not that it's a shady organization, but that it's gotten too big for itself. Also, Joomla should try to be less worried about having to defend itself from itself. If it wants to focus on creating a great software and a great community, I see it really as a no brainer that it needs needs to embrace and empower its other half of the symbiotic relationship, the community. It may be difficult to see this, but having a more empowered community is a way of empowering yourself as well.

[mcsmom]

Thanks for your post. However, what is troubling about it (and some others recently) is that you seem to believe that people like me, Wendy, Lorenzo, Dave, James, and Ryan are not part of the community, nor are the people on the leadership teams, nor the members of the teams who manage the JED, JRD, JUGS, Trademarks and licensing, forum moderators, translators, documenters, nor code contributors whether core developers or members of the bug squad nor the other contributors I am probably leaving out. Some how you think "Joomla!" which is all of those people, is separate from something called "the community." Not only is that hurtful to me and others personally, it is a very distorted view of the world. In fact, in the open source world, the people who do the work ARE the community.

I find in general when people say 'the community thinks this" or "the community is not listened do" what they are really saying is "I think this" or "I did not get my way." I strongly encourage people to use the word "I" when discussing their opinions. Don't project what you think onto others and don't try to speak for the hundreds of people who make Joomla! possible. Not only is it more honest, it will not make other people angry that you claim to speak for them, whether or not hey agree with you. I really wonder sometimes whether people using this "the community thinks" language realize how upsetting others find it. It is actually much more effective as a persuasive rhetorical approach to say "I" because you're not distracting from the content of your views by raising the issue of whether you have the right to speak for this entity called "the community" or for the listener specifically.

I would also remind you of the powerful insight by Eric Raymond that in the open source world the amount of your influence is based on the quality and amount of your contributions. It's your contributions that lead people to respect your opinions. The greater your time commitment and the higher the quality of your work, the more influence you have on the future. It's as simple as that. That's why you see a relatively new participants like Christophe or Mark move quickly up into project leadership: They spend the time; they do excellent work; they work well with other people. It's not enough just to put in time although that is the first step, your time must be constructively used to produce good quality work, and you must not be a drain on other people or a distraction from doing their own work.

I strongly encourage you and others who want to influence the shape of this project and this community to dive in. For example, pick an area of documentation to become an expert in. You're a good writer, we all know that, use those skills to advance the project. Or pick a module to refactor. Pick a forum that you will answer 10 questions a day in for the next 3 months. The great thing about a community driven open source project is indeed that those people who you mention, users and third part developers for example, can jump right into the community mix and have tremendous influence in a very short period of time just by making the decision to do so.

[AmyStephen]

Very good post, Elin.

Andrew has raised the same very valid point about feeling like his membership "in the community" is somehow diminished because he has taken on more responsibility and is contributing at a higher level within the project.

Part of the problem is, there isn't a good name for the entire population of contributors who are not part of the "project proper", but they contribute to a wealth of Extensions that power Joomla! Web sites, and they build drop-dead sexy Web sites that reflect well on our project, and they provide support in local forums that they pay for which cater to non-English speakers and special interest communities, and they blog and write books and assist one another in Twitter.

Those folks who aren't "part of the project" are also members of our community but there is no good "handle" to say - hey - let's not forget to include them and recognize them, too when we recognize what makes Joomla! great.

So, the word "community" gets used in many different ways and frequently and sadly ends up hurting peoples feelings in ways unintended.

We've been through a number of phases in this project. There are some really, really, really important people - specific people - who will be remembered by those of us who *know* as making a huge and important difference to Joomla!'s evolution and stability and growth. Andrew, Louis, Johan, Wilco, and Brad are all obvious members of that elite group.

Elin Waring - you are one of those people. I have said this many times - you put a foundation under the Empire State Building of the Joomla! project at a time we really needed that help. And I thank you for that. You are a very remarkable, strong, hard-working, intelligent, and driven woman. Good to see when we want to encourage other women to get involved in free software.

The work you will be remembered for involves a lot of the legal footing we needed. It's corporate stuff. And as such, it can feel very authoritarian and concerning to the Birkenstock wearing hippie free software loving developer crowd. (Not speaking for anyone or everyone here, just saying. ) You have taken a lot of unfair criticism for doing what we needed done. You deserve every bit as much respect as the list of guys I mentioned earlier. And, that's the truth, Elin.

My prediction is, in our next phase of growth, the word "community" will make all of us feel good because we will realize there are no walls between us, except for those walls we build ourselves, and we will work harder to be inclusive, and open, and transparent, and we will be better able to help new contributors get started, even with radical and different ideas.

Respect, Elin.
Amy

[unleash.it]

Hi Elin, well I’m not completely sure if you’re responding to the original poster or myself because you didn’t mention a name. But since it sounds like you’re speaking to me (I don’t know bzcoder so maybe he’s written documentation too for all I know). Anyway, you brought out some interesting points, so I’ll say a few words.

First of all, please there’s no need to have to feel defensive. I think you’re getting a little mixed up with semantics on the “community” word. Of course you are part of it, as well as all the others you mentioned. When “I” say “community” (and I’m pretty sure most others as well), I am simply using a commonly agreed upon term for the broader group of people that contribute, use, speak of, know of, and even those who might potentially contribute, use, speak of, know of the Joomla CMS. It’s just a convenient term to use that’s all… no need to feel left out. In my opinion it’s a matter of course that the main contributors of Joomla would be at the heart of the community.

Even though to be honest I do find some of what you say sometimes (the minority of the time) to be a bit discouraging, I also have much respect for what I know of you both as an individual and for what you do for the community. The same thing absolutely goes for all of Joomla’s contributors. Believe it or not, on a lot of these issues I feel certain people have gone way over the top in their reactions and I felt like speaking up for you.

What I don’t think is fair of you to imply, are that words like mine that may have had some constructive criticism are “troubling”. It implies that you think I’m here to cause trouble when indeed the opposite is the case. In fact, I’m not looking for influence either. Not sure why you would assume that. The only thing I’ve ever been interested is making helpful suggestions and to contribute in the ways that I’m pretty good at such as you mentioned… documentation, forum help, maybe a module (still trying to get my php skills a little better, and look forward to contributing in that way when the time is right), etc.

What I think is wrong is not about individuals so much. It’s about a culture. The culture that exists I think has probably been created over a time period and not necessarily an easy thing to change for any one person or even a small group. At any rate, this culture in my opinion makes it difficult to accept and have respect for newer members, or members who have not cointributed x-amount to the group. It creates an us and them between these two factions. My advice: work to try and get rid of that culture Elin, it does neither you nor Joomla any good. If you can, try to take most criticism as criticism towards the culture and not the individuals. That is what I think most (maybe with the exception of a few with an axe to grind) are referring.

I haven’t read Eric Raymond, but one thing I do know from the experience that is life is if you want to attract contributors, a community, etc., then you need a positive culture. True, I can come in and start writing all kinds of documentation (which I’ve done in the past, and started up again recently only to run into a dead end with Amy… or actually Joomla by proxy) or whatever. But if no one can find it or read it because the system is messed up and the vibes are bad, AND IF I’M NOT ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT IT WITHOUT UPSETTING SOMEONE, and there’s ZERO WILLINGNESS TO MAKE CHANGES TO THE OVERALL SYSTEM REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY PEOPLE THINK THE CHANGE NEEDS DOING than my efforts are wasted. I don't like to waste my efforts, even when unpaid.

Another thing to think about. If a growing majority of the design world thinks “Joomla is e-v-i-l”* and won’t come to help, you can’t get mad at them either. Doesn’t all of Joomla's negative flap (whether its off the wall or not) tell you something? Maybe the organization needs to be fixed to be more friendly and accepting to the community, or whatever you might choose to call it. Meritocracy and "eliteness" seems great for those who want influence, but not so great in attracting a broad community to help build a better project.

That’s my point. Thanks

p.s. sorry for the upper caps, I'm not angry in the least, just trying to especially make that point. From a decidedly do-it-yourself but non-berkenstock hippie: Love to you my crazy contributors! I'll get you don't worry... I'll be helping with the 3rd parties where I can. Not so big, so generally a lot less drama in those places.

* Edit: word obfuscated to not give google any more fuel for the term

[brad]

If you want to make a difference, consider contributing.
Here are my views on that subject: http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leade ... oject.html and a few years later: http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leade ... e-two.html

A way to continue showing you are contributing to Joomla is to continue helping people via our forums and other official resources. THAT proves Joomla is not evil, when people from many different skills and backgrounds can be helped to use Joomla, the software. 99.99999% of people who use Joomla care little about the politics that a few people would like to drag us into discussing.

Setting up 'lobby groups'/platforms and other factions to try to garner suport for individual issues that people feel is most important just creates more tension and division. It becomes about ME, the individual who setup this platform and the marvellous things they are wanting to happy. No matter how things are setup, one thing I can guarantee you is: Everyone will never be happy. Everyone wants a slice of the pie, be it the perceived notion of power, respectability in the community or whatever.

Joomla is software, focus on that, and if you want to contribute it's up to you. If Joomla, the software does not suit your needs, use something else. If Joomla the 'fluffy/emotional/feel good/cheerleading/making people feel great about themselves etc' side of things does not suit your individual personality, perhaps looking for a social networking/friendship community might make you feel more appreciated.

If Joomla the community is about making you feel good and that is why you are here, perhaps you need to get offline and find some real friends, or establish real relationships. We're here to fill a software need, not an emotional one.

.. far too many ego's, chest puffing, power plays, listen to me, etc etc going around, nothing new though. To many of the real hero's go unnoticed, since they are not the ones with the ego's and desire to have the spotlight. I'm really tired of seeing these people's efforts (and others) pushed aside, time and time again. None of the "drama" you talk about it brought about by them.

It takes real effort to commit to something and stick around long enough to make it happen. It takes real efforts to get along with a large group of people and continue doing so over time. It takes real effort to contribute to Joomla with some of the people who claim to be helping the community working so hard against it, whether they realise it or not. It takes real effort to contribute things without strings attached ("I'll only contribute if Joomla doesn't use a wiki for documentation" or "I'll only contribute if Joomla does this for me first..." or even "I'll only help if so-and-so is not in a leadership postion." or "I'll only contribute to the code if this feature I really wants is accepted and done my way." etc etc).

Put for the effort to first fit in, just maybe you'll begin to understand how much you and I owe some people for contributing to the success of Joomla, people you perhaps don't even know yet, or know very little about, and see very little of.

http://www.oreillynet.com/conferences/b ... jects.html
Don't be one of these:

Also, watch out for hostile people who insult the status quo, angrily demand help, have a sense of entitlement, who blackmail others, who deliberately rile people up and those who make accusations of conspiracy (signs of paranoia). Conceited people also present dangers — be wary of people who refuse to argue with other’s opinions, who make sweeping claims (often times about the future success of the project) and people who re-open topics that have been long settled.

Finally, look out for people unwilling to cooperate with others. Be wary of people who complain, but are unwilling to help fix the problem at hand, people who refuse to discuss design and people who cannot take criticism.

Look at the title of this thread ..and others along similar lines.
BTW even Jono Bacon's more up to date book on Art of Community reinforces similar sentiments.


I'm not always right, often wrong in fact, but if you agree with that, you have to believe the same to your views. Just maybe, there is the tiny miniscule possibility.... So before feeling so empowered to share your views as being the only right way, make a contribution. Will you?

Some food for thought: There is one main resource that has been the basis for Joomla's success in the CMS world. Do you know what it is? If so, when was the last time you acknowledged the people who's efforts brought that about, and who maintain it today? If.. that is.. you are looking for people who's example of contributing to Joomla's success you can imitate.

Right, sorry for speaking my mind.. it's a hot day here, and seeing this age old argument being repeated yet again, I could not resist. See 2 paragraphs up, this will probably be one of my mistakes

[mcsmom]

Hi unleash.it,

Yes I was talking to you and I find your posts quite useful, I was also just commenting about a general pattern of language use that you have probably picked up from some other people who have the habit of using "the community" to mean "I." That is not at all a criticism of you, it's a bad habit that some people around the Joomla! project have and, unfortunately, repeat something often enough and people begin to believe it is true. So when you hear someone say "the community thinks" or 'the community feels" ask them "how do you know? what are you basing that on? Isn't it possible that there are different points of view in the Joomla! community not just one? What do you mean by community anyway?" Try to help those people own their opinions. By the way, in the world of open source software the term community is used just as I use it, as the community of contributors, the people who make and support Joomla!, and that is why Joomla! is a community driven open source project, not a corporate one.

I am not at all defensive, I don't know where you would get that idea from. I am sad to be excluded when people say 'the community thinks" something that I don't think. But I know that I really am part of the community (despite the implication of your choice of wording) and that actually there are a lot of differing points of view in the real community. So, what I hope you will be sensitive to your use of language that makes me and other people feel you see us as "the other", that's all I ask. Own your opinions, don't use the rhetoric of speaking for others, speak for yourself and that is powerful enough. Don't catch that bad habit of speaking for other people that some have.

It is in fact easy to contribute to the Joomla! project and easy to get involved. three or four issues in the tracker and Mark will be asking you if you want to join the bug squad. Report a couple of vulnerable extensions and Claire and Pierre will grab you for their team. Answer a few hundred questions and someone will see if you want to be a moderator. Post a few interesting ideas on the development list and Andrew will ask you if you want a branch. You don't need to be a high powered developer or connected: you just need to DO and don't be poisonous. No one is keeping you from answering questions, writing documentation, putting in a patch, starting a JUG, organizing and event or anything else involved in running an open source project. There are no special tickets needed. Just DO. have you ever heard the Woody Allen saying "80 Percent of success is showing up"? That's my experience. If you show up and work, people

Don't expect that every suggestion is going to be taken, but honestly, my experience is that if don't wait for permission and instead you write the documentation or submit the bug fix or whatever and don't whine about it, all of a sudden there you are. Look how much attention people including me give you whenever you post one of your long thoughtful posts. If you take the time to write a well thought out post then people will respond to it.

I do recommend that you read Raymond (http://catb.org/~esr/writings/homesteading/) and otherslike Karl Fogel about how community driven open source works. Joomla! has a positive, welcoming culture, flexible, responsive and so on, Of course there are a small number of people who are not satisfied with that and want to dominate all discussions and can't stop themselves from arguing or complaining, but what group of several hundred people doesn't have 10 of those? You take the difficult people with the easy people, that's just life.

[AmyStephen]

Unleash it -

If you read anything from Raymond, check out How to be a Hacker. I think you'll like it. Especially the Hacker Attitude - it rocks. Thanks for taking care of the Joomla! is Evil thread - we've only got a few days before we celebrate a year of that *clears throat* analysis.

You've done a nice job in there. Much appreciated contributions.

Amy

[unleash.it]

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm eager to get back to you but at the moment hot therapeutic waters and beautiful surroundings beckon. And if that wasn't enough, I've just been given 20 minutes to get out the door and on our way by a higher power...

Brad, that's a lot from you... I'm impressed! I think I now know you twice as well as I did before

[unleash.it]

Well to be honest it seems that we don’t agree on some basic things, and from everything I can guess we probably aren’t going to. I mean, I would have been nice if it were different. Would have liked it if Joomla was more open to “ideas and conversation” without precondition. But as you state, the preconditions for this are contributing and “fitting in”. But it’s not just any contributing (because I’ve already done that a fair amount), but contributing in mega amounts.

When I look here and when I look at the other thread that’s been going on about the Trademark (not to mention previous threads), it’s suddenly hit me that I’m getting involved with something that’s not only too complex for me to do anything about, but for those who have been involved with Joomla a lot longer that I. Sorry if I’m a little slow to that.

Honestly, I’m not interested in spending a lot of time on the politics of Joomla, nor gaining any influence as I mentioned. I just believe by default, that I deserve respect (and of course everyone else). Since that as you stated is not the way it works around here, I don’t think we aren’t going to get very far. But when you say Brad that 99 (to the umpteenth power) of people don’t care about Joomla’s politics you are making a big assumption. I’ll bet A LOT more care than you think. A lot of people simply don’t feel like putting on the heavy a suit of armor it takes to wade in here. BTY, I talk to MANY people in the Joomla world (3rd party devs, designers, site owners, etc.) and many of them do have a pretty strong opinion as it turns out. And there’s a pretty good consensus about what the problem is. But the consensus seems just as big that no one seems to know what to do about it.

Frankly I find it kind of insulting Brad the way you’ve spoken to me. I haven’t read much Jono Beacon, but I’ve seen that statement before. I’m not sure if it’s out of context or what, but it seems like a very black and white and frankly negative way to see things. I’m sure there are some truly difficult people in the open source world, but a lot of times there’s another side to the story. Making blanket judgments about people is never a good thing. It only causes your own anger to fester not to mention that it gives these people an axe to grind in return.

Mark my words dude I am not and never was here to cause a problem. I’m sorry if some of my words have been a thorn in anyone’s side because that was certainly never the intention. If I’ve sounded a little grumpy on a couple of occasions, it’s because I haven’t always been treated very well around here. Yet I’ve NEVER started off treating anyone else without the utmost of respect and appreciation.

As for Amy’s site that it sounds like you’re commenting on, when it first started out it was nothing less than amazing to witness. Everyone has been nice to each other, VERY cordial and helpful. Real world large scale projects started. Newcomers are welcomed, encouraged, etc. Just the way Joomla can and should be, but it arguably is not. Unfortunately I agree, it lately has become more of a political platform. Even if I agree somewhat with them, the results are that the site seems to have died down a lot. We can agree that the political ranting and raving doesn’t do a lot of good in itself and getting to work is the way to go. But “getting to work” requires a good system to be in place. That is what they are trying to help you with, especially in the philosophy of being tolerant (or accepting is a better word) in situations like the trademark or just general acceptance of people and issues of censorship. That is what I am in my own way trying to suggest to you as well. But you seem to have a hard time listening.

Elin, I do think it’s a case of semantics because I was just trying to find a word that was for the overall Joomla world. Community seemed like the best fit to me. I’ve never thought that only contributors were community. Are you sure this is the common way to see it? I would think all the site builders/owners who use and recommend Joomla, bloggers, etc. as part of the community. On the other hand, “defensive” my not have been the best choice of words, better might have been “please, no need to feel sad” which matches your word choice. That’s all I meant anyway. I agree with you that some people have been very harsh at times and think you, Brad and all of Joomla’s many hard workers deserve tremendous amounts of appreciation. I do think there are genuine reasons for some of the frustration, only some of it has been really misguided in my opinion.

About contributing. I have and continue to contribute. Besides what I’ve done (and attempted to do) with documentation, have you followed me around on all the 3rd party sites? I’m there quite a bit helping on different forums. And for the first time, I even added some features to a component and sent it back to its author recently. I would like to want to feel like contributing right here. But the reality is in order to do that with my current skills, it would need to be in a way that I don’t think is helpful.

It takes real effort to contribute things without strings attached ("I'll only contribute if Joomla doesn't use a wiki for documentation" or "I'll only contribute if Joomla does this for me first..." or even "I'll only help if so-and-so is not in a leadership position." or "I'll only contribute to the code if this feature I really wants is accepted and done my way." etc, etc).

I’m not a total punk, but this is where I really agree with Eric Raymond Hey, I’m giving my time. I can make suggestions or even have strings all want. No one’s paying me, and suggestion never hurt anyone (or shouldn't anyway) so why not? Of course you don’t have to accept them but if you’re smart and if the suggestions potentially might help Joomla, you would at least seriously listen. If you insist on x-amount of contributions before even opening up your ears to an idea, you’re missing out on a lot of good ideas. Joomla has a TON of talented people “in and around the Joomla world” (trying to avoid the community word). Why not take advantage of them? If you keep it all in a very closed, very tight small circle and make it so difficult for idea people to come in, Joomla can’t live up to its potential. The trademark issue may be important to people, but this is really the biggest place Joomla is shooting itself in the foot IMO.

Signed unleash.it. These are “my” ideas with no claims that they are anyone else’s.

p.s. I never insisted that Joomla end the wiki for documentation. That’s completely false, not even close to the truth.

[unleash.it]

If Joomla the community is about making you feel good and that is why you are here, perhaps you need to get offline and find some real friends, or establish real relationships. We're here to fill a software need, not an emotional one.

For some reason when I first read your post I skimmed right by this. You know upon reading this, I will never take you seriously again. I don't take it personally though, because I've seen you at it with other people. Frankly I feel sorry for you as being this judgmental must be no easy weight to carry. I mean, you have no idea what kind of life I have. If you knew me you would be pretty embarrassed by that statement I think.

Last thing I'll say to you is that I've spent my time here ONLY because I frequently use Joomla in my work. Besides designing websites, I am a graphics and web teacher and people come to me for advice. I felt it only natural to want to give back to the open source project that I have benefited by. I actually have a real sense of consciousness to want to give back. Of course (as we spoke of and agreed on in the past) I also hoped to give my feedback in order to improve the product for myself and my customers, and all of yours. But if at the core of the project exists this kind of immaturity, it's a sad state for us all.

[AmyStephen]

But “getting to work” requires a good system to be in place.

Indeed it does, Jason, I think some of the things you have had to say in this thread might be your biggest contribution to Joomla!, yet.

Brad - I wasn't certain if you are talking about All Together, As a Whole in your post, or not. But, if you are, I am certainly open to visit with you on your concerns. There are a number of leadership team members and OSM team members who bump me, from time to time, when something bothers them and I encourage you to do so, too, if something is happening that bothers you. Again, I don't assume you are talking about that site, but if you are, I want you to know that I am open to your comments. (In fact, I welcome your participation!)

My personal hope is that we might have an organic, self-moderated groups environment here on joomla.org. Since it's a new type of organization for us as a community, it will certainly take a while for the group to figure out how to do so in a way that is both productive and respectful. Probably best to have that learning curve happen off property. But one day, I hope the site goes away because we are doing it here!

I hope it is also clear that good that has come from All Together, as a Whole. We have a number of new contributors here within the project, a re-energized magazine effort, very well developed proposals from professionals, J! and Beyond is happening, the project has been responsive to more transparency and the involvement for sharing OSM Board suggestions was very much appreciated. In all, I see a great deal of renewed passion for our project.

We need to keep remembering that we all share the same goals of helping improve Joomla!, even if we have different roles and ideas on how to do that.

[brad]

p.s. I never insisted that Joomla end the wiki for documentation. That’s completely false, not even close to the truth.

I was not trying to be personal and attack you in my post. When I made that statement I was talking about other people, not you.

[AmyStephen]

I agree with Brad about the Art of Community from Jono Bacon. Jono has a positive attitude. His book spends very little time talking about 'problem people', but instead offers a lot of strategy for encouraging an active community.

This is an example of what I love about Bacon's writing and approach (Chapter: Communicating Clearly Page: 87)

SOMETIMES WE ALL SUCK

One attribute of tone that I have always found compelling is those who are willing to be slightly self-deprecating. This is a particularly welcome trait in leaders: when a leader is willing to joke about herself or her situation, it can often help warm her reception to others.

It's so true. Time to retire the poisonous people video and pick up Art of Community and bring back some fun and enthusiasm and as many contributors as we can fit into the joint. Sometimes, we all suck. So what? Forgive. Try to get better. Be nice. Apologize. Move on. Let's have some fun!

[unleash.it]

Hi Brad, I'm not really taking it personally to be honest. You're going to be you. The interesting thing is that I've lately seen you and some of the others getting pretty upset up with people who are off topic, personal attacks, etc. But I think think about it, read what you wrote. It WAS both highly off topic (ranting about everyone and everything while at the same time talking to me) and personal. How can you say that paragraph you copies wasn't directed at me personally? You know that I've discussed the wiki quite a bit. I won't even begin to disect the rest.

Seems to me what's unacceptable for others is perfectly ok for you do in your own way. I think you play a much bigger role in the drama than you realize.

As for Jono maybe I will, but I haven't read his book. Like I said before I'm not passing a judgement. Lots of people seem to like him. But that quote at least in the context provided frankly did not make me happy. I don't think I'm a poisonous person, nor anything close. I don't think it's healthy to make blanket statements about people you don't know very well either, even if you percieve them to be trouble makers (sometimes they are but sometimes there's more to the story). Sure, I've made mistakes and have "sucked" but still I very much dislike that quote actually.

If you're curious and want to try and think from someone else's shoes (i.e. mine), here's something I shared with someone pretty recently:

I don't know how I've managed to get myself into these debates. In the beginning, it started with trying to contribute some documentation and making a suggestion in the white paper forum. As for the white papers, to my great surprise I was accused (along with several others) as basically being a leech, just for supporting Steve Burge's suggestion of making the core tableless (at the time they were insisiting that the Beez override was good enough). But wasn't that what white papers were for ? Around the same time, I had just spent a lot of time making what I thought was a contribution, so I didn't think making a friendly suggestion could possibly rile anyone up. That was basically my welcome to Joomla.

Hopefully that's food for thought rather than increasing bad blood and drama levels! And "definitely" not just regarding my personal story. I'm sharing it because I doubt I'm the only one with a similar experience...

Honestly, drama is nothing that I enjoy. I'd much rather be productive and that's always been my goal. This right now is not fun, and I really don't have time for it. I can only hope it's worthwhile somehow...

[brian]

I can't recommend Jono's book highly enough and if you're unsure about spending the money you can always read the CC licenced pdf version available from the site.

[unleash.it]

This was a pretty gloomy thread from beginning to end, which doesn't make me feel proud exactly. But I've said what I wanted to say, and can only hope that it's taken in stride. I thank Brad and the moderators for listening and not locking the topic (so far...).

Unless they come out with a drupless any time soon... I'll be trying to contribute where I can on the sidelines. I hope one way or another all the drama settles for everyone, and the good vibes return as soon as possible.