Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

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hhtmp88
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Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by hhtmp88 » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:59 am

Dear all,

I find that some of the addon developers use Wiki to establish a fast and detail documentation platform of their products, so I strongly suggest Joomla to evaluation this way of making Joomla's documents.

One of the example sites is:
http://wiki.civicrm.org/confluence/disp ... umentation
[if you find another one, pls. post here too!]

Would the documentation team, pls. comment.

Rgds,
JMY(晉明夷)
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Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by hhtmp88 » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:09 am

Maybe Joomla's documentation team to control the main content outlines, some of the major content and the rules for editing the wiki documents by the community; while the community to add the details and make them perfect.

A FAQ section (just like the FAQ of Joomla forums) is also highly recommended.

I am not sure if phpMyFAQ could help for the FAQ section of Joomla, but pls. have a look on it:
http://phpmyfaq.de/

It seems that they are working on integration with Joomla too.

Rgds,
JMY(晉明夷)
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http://YogaJM.com -- YogaJM 晉明瑜伽

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Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by brad » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:19 am

I believe that this is the closest we have to a community driven doc site/wiki: http://help.joomla.org/workshop/index.p ... Itemid=215
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Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by hhtmp88 » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:18 am

Sorry to say that:

It's a site for Joomla's document team and not the site for Joomla users to look for documents and answers to their problems.

Rgds,
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Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by Michelle Bisson » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:30 pm

hhtmp88,

We currently do not have any manuals for 1.5 Beta.  I suggest that you use the Stable version of 1.11.  The User Manual is located on the Help site under the Menu "User Manual".

http://help.joomla.org/images/User_manu ... .19.06.pdf
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Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by hhtmp88 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:17 am

Michelle Bisson wrote: hhtmp88,

We currently do not have any manuals for 1.5 Beta.  I suggest that you use the Stable version of 1.11.  The User Manual is located on the Help site under the Menu "User Manual".

http://help.joomla.org/images/User_manu ... .19.06.pdf
Dear Michelle,

Though it's a very nice manual with more than 200pages, I appreciate it but Joomla is changing everyday, so I am suggesting the Joomla document team to establish a wiki platform for collaboration and responsive to the fast changing Joomla

and.... the vast addons populations which changes everyday too!

=> providing a common platform for not only the Joomla document team, but also the addons developers and the communities to work on.

Rgds,

hhtmp88
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Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by Chris Davenport » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:42 am

hhtmp88,

Your idea is, of course, a good one.  It has been suggested before and discussed at length within the documentation team.  The problem is that a wiki where anyone can post would be subjected to a deluge of spam.  Joomla! is now in the top 500 busiest websites on the internet, so it would be an attractive target for spammers.  Our demo site had to be pulled recently for this very reason.

Our present solution, and it is very much a compromise, is to set up wikis where it is necessary to register before being allowed to make changes.  It's not ideal, but if you can think of a better solution there's a whole bunch of people who are listening.

Regards,
Chris.
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Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by ibnhafsun » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:22 pm

Hi, Chris.

Now that there´s a bunch of people listening ;) ...

What about some standards, like Open Document? We are talking about tools (ie, a wiki, or some collaborative editors) and editorial guidelines without talking about standards.

Now, we have a PDF to make changes and/or to do derivative works, and it´s a hard task. May be it´s the best format for printing but, is the best format for documenting an open source project?

I am not a wiki fan. We have the beta out with the new framework and, I guess, the possibility to develop some kind of extension to get Open Documents into Joomla!, like Aukyla, CPS Project, eZ publish, Apache Lenya, Plone, Silva, SiSU and TYPO3 do.

I don´t know if this is a better solution but, IMO, using open standards should be the priority. Once a standard is chosen we can think about the best tool to work.
Last edited by ibnhafsun on Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by hhtmp88 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:14 pm

Chris Davenport wrote: hhtmp88,

Your idea is, of course, a good one.  It has been suggested before and discussed at length within the documentation team.  The problem is that a wiki where anyone can post would be subjected to a deluge of spam.  Joomla! is now in the top 500 busiest websites on the internet, so it would be an attractive target for spammers.  Our demo site had to be pulled recently for this very reason.

Our present solution, and it is very much a compromise, is to set up wikis where it is necessary to register before being allowed to make changes.  It's not ideal, but if you can think of a better solution there's a whole bunch of people who are listening.

Regards,
Chris.
Your concern is understandable, and I am actually thinking about this problem, but unexpectedly, Wikipedia successfully tackled most of this spaming problem -- as I remembered from some posts, it is an dynamic equilibrium of correct content -- what it means is that when someone edited wrongly, intentionally or un-intentionally, it is immediately corrected by the goodman somewhere in the world.

So if the majority of the Joomla communities are goodman, and I believed that most of us are, the wiki Knowledge-base should work.

On the contrary, Enterprise wiki, use strong control and has access level control over users to tightly control spams...


Joomla document team may take the middle, what I am suggesting is:
-> some content are editable only by the Joomla document team
-> some content are editable by the volunteers
-> some content are editable freely by the whole Joomla communities, e.g those registered in the Joomla forums.

I don't know if mediawiki (works with mambowiki bridge) could have three access levels, but at least the first and the last access level.

I am not sure if this is enough, but I am sure that the Joomla community could make it possible, just like the Wikipedia community could make a success knowledge plateform nowadays.

May I suggest the Joomla Document Team to take a details look at the success factors/criteria of Wikipedia -- the most successful open Encyclopedia of the Globe?

Rgds,
JMY(晉明夷)
http://mfYoga.org -- Mindfulness Yoga Association 靜觀瑜伽協會
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Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by humvee » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:53 pm

ibnhafsun wrote: What about some standards, like Open Document? We are talking about tools (ie, a wiki, or some collaborative editors) and editorial guidelines without talking about standards.

Now, we have a PDF to make changes and/or to do derivative works, and it´s a hard task. May be it´s the best format for printing but, is the best format for documenting an open source project?

I am not a wiki fan. We have the beta out with the new framework and, I guess, the possibility to develop some kind of extension to get Open Documents into Joomla!, like Aukyla, CPS Project, eZ publish, Apache Lenya, Plone, Silva, SiSU and TYPO3 do.

I don´t know if this is a better solution but, IMO, using open standards should be the priority. Once a standard is chosen we can think about the best tool to work.
Certainly a standard format needs to be agreed upon to ensure consistency across the piece. The requirements for online and offline documentation are similar but the delivery and presentation (where there is a difference) needs to be consistent as well.

Document and version controlling are also key essentials that should be incorporated into any plan. Together with an effective means to ensure all the documents are kept as up to date as is possible given the nature of an Open Source - therefore voluntary - work force.

@ ibnhafsun
Until such time that a system is agreed upon, if you or any of the other translation teams would like a copy of the original User Manual document then let me or ledzep know and we can forward this to you. Just let us know which team or project you are involved with first so we can monitor what is happening.

Regards

Andy

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Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by ibnhafsun » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:31 pm

Thanks, Andy. I replied you @ joomlausermanual to keep this on topic.

I know this is just the begining of a big project and may be it´s time to show some kind of gratitude: we really appreciate your efforts to get some documentation up and ready.
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Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by fatpat » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:05 pm

I too agree that going the Wiki route is the best.

Spam can be managed.

The current manual, while extensive, is not easily pulled up or "flipped" through.  This would probably be help if it had a PDF index, though.

As other people have mentioned, Joomla changes too often to be 'frozen' into a PDF.

Yea for Wiki

ledzep

Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by ledzep » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:07 pm

Dear Michelle,

Though it's a very nice manual with more than 200pages, I appreciate it but Joomla is changing everyday, so I am suggesting the Joomla document team to establish a wiki platform for collaboration and responsive to the fast changing Joomla

and.... the vast addons populations which changes everyday too!

=> providing a common platform for not only the Joomla document team, but also the addons developers and the communities to work on.

Rgds,

hhtmp88
I do not believe that the core Joomla! software changes as rapidly as you suggest.  The User Manual addresses the core software and currently not third party extensions.  My thinking on this may change for 1.0.11 or the upcoming Joomla! 1.5 User Manual.  Humvee and I are working on an outline for 1.5 so things may change.

The current User Manual is being distributed via the http://help.joomla.org/ web site.

The official forum http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/board,352.0.html is in place to collect comments, suggestions, corrections etc.

On another note, I applaud any voluntary effort by people using Joomla!. However, the fact that it is voluntary has associated problems (I've been there over the past year).

IMHO, opening a medium, whether it be a Joomla! web site, wiki etc., up to anyone to shape the drafting of such a document is not the best way forward.

With the assistance of the people mentioned in the acknowledgments of the User Manual and, in particular Humvee, we have made giant leaps over the last 2 - 3 weeks.  I am confident that we shall do the same with the 1.5 manual.

Once complete, we are happy to open it up for comment, critcism, suggestions etc, and by controlling the updates process, rather than making knee jerk reactions to every suggestion, we aim to produce documentation that does this wonderful project justice.

These views are personal.

Thank you.
Last edited by Michelle Bisson on Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by ledzep » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:09 pm

fatpat wrote: I too agree that going the Wiki route is the best.

Spam can be managed.

The current manual, while extensive, is not easily pulled up or "flipped" through.  This would probably be help if it had a PDF index, though.

As other people have mentioned, Joomla changes too often to be 'frozen' into a PDF.

Yea for Wiki
These enhancements, together with an online version, using a Joomla! site as the basis, are in the works and will be announced on http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/board,352.0.html and http://www.joomlausermanual.com

Again, I do not believe that Joomla!, the core, changes that frequently that it can not be reflected in a revised PDF version of the manual.

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Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by hhtmp88 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:23 am

ibnhafsun wrote:
I am not a wiki fan. We have the beta out with the new framework and, I guess, the possibility to develop some kind of extension to get Open Documents into Joomla!, like Aukyla, CPS Project, eZ publish, Apache Lenya, Plone, Silva, SiSU and TYPO3 do.

I don´t know if this is a better solution but, IMO, using open standards should be the priority. Once a standard is chosen we can think about the best tool to work.
Hi ibnhafsun!

Nice to hear something new -- Open Documents!

Can you let me know more about it?
Any sites talking about it?

What is IMO?
And its official website is?

Thanks!
JMY(晉明夷)
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http://YogaJM.com -- YogaJM 晉明瑜伽

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Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by hhtmp88 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:55 am

ledzep wrote:
Dear Michelle,

Though it's a very nice manual with more than 200pages, I appreciate it but Joomla is changing everyday, so I am suggesting the Joomla document team to establish a wiki platform for collaboration and responsive to the fast changing Joomla

and.... the vast addons populations which changes everyday too!

=> providing a common platform for not only the Joomla document team, but also the addons developers and the communities to work on.

Rgds,

hhtmp88
I do not believe that the core Joomla! software changes as rapidly as you suggest.  The User Manual addresses the core software and currently not third party extensions.  My thinking on this may change for 1.0.11 or the upcoming Joomla! 1.5 User Manual.  Humvee and I are working on an outline for 1.5 so things may change.
Hi ledzep!

Appreciate very much your work and the whole document team's work on Joomla's documents!
Actually a nice official Joomla documents as introduced to me by Michelle is required and has its good value for the community!
http://help.joomla.org/images/User_manu ... .19.06.pdf
<-- I have downloaded it and helping me to get more familiar with the Joomla CMS.


What I am proposing is a common and single plateform to consolidate all documents of Joomla, just like http://wiki.civicrm.org and http://wikipedia.org, not just the English, but also the Chinese, the Spanish, the French,...;

Not just the Joomla cores, but also the 900 plus addons;
Not just the efforts of the Joomla Document team, but also the whole joomla community.

The best platform to achieve this purpose, according to my limited knowledge, is wiki. If someone know other good platforms, I am pleased to know and evaluate.

Rgds,
JMY(晉明夷)
http://mfYoga.org -- Mindfulness Yoga Association 靜觀瑜伽協會
http://YogaJM.com -- YogaJM 晉明瑜伽

ledzep

Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by ledzep » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:40 am

IMO - In my opinion
IMHO - In my humble opinion

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Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by hhtmp88 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:54 am

ledzep wrote: IMO - In my opinion
IMHO - In my humble opinion
What are they?
Where to find more information?

Rgds,
JMY(晉明夷)
http://mfYoga.org -- Mindfulness Yoga Association 靜觀瑜伽協會
http://YogaJM.com -- YogaJM 晉明瑜伽

ledzep

Re: Why don't setup a Wiki to aggregate the know-how of the Joomla Communiity?

Post by ledzep » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:48 pm

They are just intials for the words!


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