Joomla going Tableless?

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Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ChevinBrown » Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:59 pm

Will Joomla ever go table less in content output?  I've asked this question before, and it doesn't seem like a big issue--but for designers it is.  I like the beez approach, but it seems like a waste of time when other CMSs allow tableless output.

 
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ijyoung » Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:10 pm

I got shot down in flames for asking same thing!
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by willebil » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:22 pm

Shot in flames? If so, let me see were that happened because this is a perfect valid question.

Now back on topic. Yes, you can render complete tableless templates in 1.5 using the template overriding system. Current output is defaulted because of backward compatability to 1.0.x, so this is not yet default output. Creating these templates for 1.5 is what the template builders can start with.

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ijyoung » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:31 pm

Not sure I buy the backward compatibility thing. My templates are all CSS based but the home page in 1.0 has extra table added. So if I upload the template to 1.5 it won't have a table in it. So why have it all. On the other hand if a template is based on tables then it should be ok too. I don't really see the problem here and I think you are fudging this.

However, praise where due - the new backend is brilliant and finally Joomla rather than Mambo renamed. Keep it up.
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by uweD » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:22 pm

Joomla! gives you all the tools you need.

Is there actually anything which stops you from developing and separating content from design?

Maybe you should find a different approach in writing your posts and tell people what the problem is you encounter while developing your site. I am pretty sure people in this forum would be than happy to help you.

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ijyoung » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:39 pm

uweD wrote: Maybe you should find a different approach in writing your posts and tell people what the problem is you encounter while developing your site. I am pretty sure people in this forum would be than happy to help you.

Uwe

Gosh, now why didn't I think of that

Basic questions? Answered immediately.

Complex questions dealing with fundamental issues with Mambo still waiting.

I stick with it as it as I have invested a fair amount of time finding out how it works.
Joomla! gives you all the tools you need.
Hardly, but it does a fair job and 1.5 is an improvement
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by willebil » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:59 pm

willebil wrote: Shot in flames? If so, let me see were that happened because this is a perfect valid question.
Always happy to answer more difficult questions.

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ijyoung » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:09 pm

OK. Thanks for that.  ;D So why does TinyMce dump extra code when used in WYSIWYG and how can I fix?  :-\

I use Tinymce as editor in simple bespoke cms without any problem.
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by n2design » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:53 am

Ive built tableless sites using 1.5

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ChevinBrown » Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:49 pm

This is my deal.  I want a tableless output.  I know this can be accomplished with the beez template (javascript override) but I think it would be beneficial to Joomla to have a tableless design.  This is the direction the web is moving.  What do you think?

*edit
One reason that prompted me to ask this was this:  I asked Veerle (a well know blogger on web standards http://veerle.duoh.com/) and she said that I "had a lot to learn" mainly because I still used tables.  The tables, in fact, were all rendered by Joomla, and not in my design.  Every designer I ask about this say "Why yes, it is elementary.  You should not use tables at all in design."
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by willebil » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:32 am

Joomla! 1.5 can be used with tabled and tableless output, it is up to the template builders to provide it...

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ChevinBrown » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:55 pm

But the "template builders" have to use javascript, correct?

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by n2design » Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:11 pm

No, it's a control, not a js over ride. It's not a hack if thats what you mean. Have fun being tableless!

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ChevinBrown » Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:14 pm

ok.  whatever it is.  It isn't straight Joomla! output.  As you said, you have to apply a hack.  The point of this post isn't to argue the operation of the Beez template or the javascript there of, I just want to know if Joomla! is going to move in a tableless direction or not.

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by n2design » Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:27 pm

as stated in my last post;

it is NOT a hack......People please understand that you CAN go tableless, end of story.

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ChevinBrown » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:49 pm

Could you please explain how to go tableless?

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by willebil » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:35 pm

A templater overriding has been implemented. In short this means that within the template the template you can alter the output that comes from components and modules. So indeed no hacking needed.

For a very good description see http://dev.joomla.org/downloads/Joomla1 ... torial.zip, take a look at the pdf starting from page 48.

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ChevinBrown » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:47 pm

thanks willebil.  This makes sense, but poses another question.  Why not build this into Joomla?  It makes much more sense.  Also--what if I install a component.  It is a bit time consuming to go through everything.  I appreciate the help!

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by willebil » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:51 pm

Templates but also extensions extend Joomla! It is up to the developers how they do it, but within 1.5 we provide the template builders the possibility to override the output without hacking core code, and that makes it extremely flexibile and powerfull.

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ijyoung » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:13 pm

n2design wrote: as stated in my last post;

it is NOT a hack......People please understand that you CAN go tableless, end of story.
You are still missing the point of the thread. At this stage of web development the default should be a tableless template. It shouldn't be that difficult to do. Then the developers can concentrate on look and feel.

I tell you, this comes from a great deal of frustration with Joomla 1.0 which takes a lot of working at and still has a table in the home page - I still haven't found the page where this Home Page table is situated, cos, believe me when I find it - out it goes
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by willebil » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:23 pm

Do you really use the default Joomla! templates for your sites? Then you indeed have not the proper templates to go table less (except BEEZ btw).

Just find a 1.5 template that is tableless, and you are ready to go...without hacking anything. Maybe we will include a third example template in the final, but that is not our focus atm.

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ijyoung » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:32 pm

No and I didn't say that, did I?

In fact, I am building a rather neat template for a client as we speak.

I admit that an improvement in 1.5 is that you can have a totally tableless template which is not the case in 1.0.

My point is that if the template was totally tableless from the start how much easier it would be to customise - see WordPress and Cubecart as examples.
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by uweD » Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:09 am

Why don't you join the joomla! development team?
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ijyoung » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:24 am

Two things here.

1. Not sure they would have me and 2. Doubt if I have the skills.

But if someone points me in the right direction, happy to help, of course. Old adage of putting one's money where one's mouth is, I guess.

;)
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by CirTap » Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:21 pm

Hi,

anyone aware of the simple fact that there are a gazillion Templates out there made for J! 1.0.x? Based on the core output of J! 1.0, which uses tables?
All those stylesheets, all those many websites rely on table output, and anyone who upgrades a site to 1.5 would totally freak out if the core all over sudden starts to break their design simply because these specific tables are missing.

If you start from scratch, you can use/change the Beez template or create a new one using anything XHTML has to offer, but the idea of backwards compatibility also includes to let people keep their existing designs, and this requires table output from the core.

Legacy sucks, yes, but it's required nevertheles.
Tables often suck, too. So?
You can change that.

my 2ct.

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ijyoung » Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:43 pm

I don't see how the two are incompatible!

If you use a template that was built for 1.0, you have to use the legacy plugin in any case and that dumps a table in to the html  - even if CSS used.
Last edited by ijyoung on Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ijyoung » Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:57 pm

Here's a thought.

How about having a switch that enables disables the home page table in legacy. Although, I can see that I may just have to fettle each template to work in 1.5 without that extra addition. In that way everyone should be happy.
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by Asphyx » Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:42 pm

You can use the module switch to shut off tables.
I am not sure however that this has extended to the mainbody section for 1.5 (My guess is it does but I have not tried it.)

What some users have to understand is that it takes more than just Joomla to remove all tables...If a component you use spits out tables Joomla can't remove them and reformat the output.
All joomla can do is stop putting data inside tables Joomla itself makes.

And I would remind everyone that there are instances where tables are supposed to be used.
It is for this reason why it will probably never be possible for Joomla to remove tables from extentions who use them as there is no way for Joomla to put the data into the contect needed to determine if Tables are warranted or not. It has to be left up to the extention developer....

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ijyoung » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:23 pm

Asphyx wrote: You can use the module switch to shut off tables.
That's good news, you can do that in 1.0
I am not sure however that this has extended to the mainbody section for 1.5 (My guess is it does but I have not tried it.)
certainly no extraeneous table in Beez.
What some users have to understand is that it takes more than just Joomla to remove all tables...If a component you use spits out tables Joomla can't remove them and reformat the output.
All joomla can do is stop putting data inside tables Joomla itself makes.
Yep fully appreciate that but we are talking about the main pages here (or at least I am)
And I would remind everyone that there are instances where tables are supposed to be used.
No disputing that - but that is for data display not layout. Again - not the issue
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ChevinBrown » Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:03 pm

Guys, with all do respect, (and I said "with all do respect")  I don't want to start a heated argument.  The point here, I think, is that along with the new development of J! 1.5, a tableless design should be implemented, or at least the ability to turn tables off.  It would be a positive step forward in any case.  Other popular CMSs like wordpress are tableless. 
As for forward compatibility:  if CSS is used, there should be no problem migrating.

Am I reading you right?

 

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