Joomla going Tableless?

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ijyoung
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ijyoung » Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:13 pm

Preaching to converted here

;)
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by Asphyx » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:23 pm

That's good news, you can do that in 1.0
It's done a little differently (or I should say more explicitly) than in the J1.0 format.

Now instead of
mosLoadModules ( 'left',-3)
you replace the -3 with xhtml instead....
I forget off the top of my head what parameters are used I haven't gotten down to really examining all of the new template systems yet.
They are included in the two default templates that come with J1.5 though.
I don't want to start a heated argument
I haven't sensed any heat....
The point here, I think, is that along with the new development of J! 1.5, a tableless design should be implemented
It is! It is implemented in the template!
You have to make a template that is tableless....

If you use any components that spit out tables then the problem is the component not J!.5...
If your still seeing tables and the component is spitting out XHTML then you template isn't set to display XHTML correctly.

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ijyoung » Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:18 pm

I confess, that I haven't attempted to make a working template for 1.5. I am the process of making a component.php that takes the table out of 1.0. I'll look at 1.5 thereafter
Ian

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by jonflgiles » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:49 pm

IMHO it pays to take time to look at the template override system in 1.5. It makes things very powerful - not just converting a table based design to divs (to create the almighty semantic markup.. did i hear any one mention module class suffixes...  ;)) but actually modifying the order that content is rendered in.

For example: The standard article layout component renders an article in a series of tables and table rows which collapse (gracefully) according to (largely) your component parameter options. Things like author, date modified, PDF/Print/Mail links and icons. This is great for someone who has basic templating skills because they will always be able to predict how the content will appear. If you use the template overide to render an article as effectively a list of divs (with or without nesting) the article will be a list of line of content - until you choose to style them. It's your responsibility to work out the layout. This makes it pretty powerful and has been rightly placed rightly in the template system - you place the modified views in the template file structure.

I implore those that haven't to take a good look at the last few pages of the 1.5 templating tutorial that willebil linked to before http://dev.joomla.org/downloads/Joomla1 ... torial.zip for specific details on this. Actually, download it, log off this forum, print it out if your feeling daring, and sit down and read it. The author even goes through how to create a tableless article layout.

Keep on with Joomla! Good things come to those who wait/contribute/learn/dialogue.

@ijyoung there is a core hack for 1.0.12 which supposedly converts J! to tableless layout. This does what I suspect you are after. I have played with it but for various reasons haven't implemented it in a production site. IMHO you would be better working on new projects in 1.5 and learning the templating system really well.

Jon.

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by uweD » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:51 pm

Thank you very much  :)
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by CirTap » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:12 pm

@jonflgiles: thank you, indeed.
ChevinBrown wrote: As for forward compatibility:  if CSS is used, there should be no problem migrating.

Am I reading you right?
no idea if you're referring to me :)

@ChevinBrown: CSS is nice and powerful, yes, but usually it's bound to the markup, read document structure. There are very few CssZenGarden-alike sites, you know.

If some stylesheet "expects" to deal with some elements inside a (nested!) table, using descendant selectors, you can't just drop that table for good or replace it with something else. Your site will very likely look like crap. This behaviour is not limited to table-based designs; any so-called accessible and standards compliant layout, valid or not, but now infected by divitis and classitis, will look equally shabby should the markup change.

Markup and stylesheet go together. Joomla-Templates are CSS driven, so there's nothing new here -- but it won't help: J! 1.5 still renders those bloddy tables for BC sake, and BC sake only with the yelde Mambo tables and thus almost any template currently in production.
This will allow several thousand Joomla!-site owners of any kind to stick to their present design(s). They can upgrade to the new version even if they don't have the mood, the skills, the time, or the money to get their stylesheests updated to work with a modern, compliant tabel-less/-free markup. If that involves to enable the Legacy Plugin - so be it. At least, that's the plan
Very few website owners are a true Standardista and coudn't care less about one or two tables on their front-page.

Let's accept it: J! 1.0.x is based on Mambo, and Mambo initially had to bother with Netscape 4.x (R.I.P). Presumably the reason why (back then) bizzare stuff like "td.contentheading" made it into the core code for there was no other way to create a solid layout for this particular browser, thanks to it's super-crappy CSS implementation and the most horrible render engine on the planet.
Despite, many, many people started to create templates for Mambo, and then Joomla, or both -- and we're still stuck with it in 1.5.
That's why the default is backwards compatibility.
In 2007, we're still suffering from "Browser War I" ;)

Of course nobody would do this today in a brand new application that does not have to worry about any legacy, like... let's say: WordPress, e107, MODx, Papaya ...

"Unfortunately", Joomla 1.0.x/Mambo 4.x are widely used, and there are loads of people making money with exchangeable and easy to install and to use templates (for less skilled "designers"), aimed to look good with these bad, bad tables. I doubt all these people are able (or willing) to "update" their products(?) to work with both apps and maintain two versions of the same design.
We'll see what the Template Designer will come up with for J! 1.5 ...

Whether you migrates to J! 1.5 or start from scratch, to get rid of the infamous frontpage table: /templates/your_template/html/com_content/frontpage/*.php is your place.

Don't get me wrong: I don't like it either. Tables for layout == not good.
They're definitely no reason to bash the entire system, esp. w/o even having used the new feature(s).

Have fun,
CirTap
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ijyoung
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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ijyoung » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:16 pm

Thanks for suggestion. I have just completed a rewrite of the content.php and content.html.php in J1.0 to remove the table.

Am currently working my way through 1.5. However, as this is not "stable" yet I need to maintain contact with 1.0 for commercial reasons.

Having started to dig into modules, and other areas, there are still chunks of tables being used for layout in 1.5, so I guess I will have to work out my own templates.

At least your suggestion has been helpful,  and for that I thank you.
Ian

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by ChevinBrown » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:28 pm

Thanks for the post CirTap.  Very helpful.  I guess what I would appreciate most, is this:  the ability to turn off tables without modifying a template, or appending.  Just an option similar to the menu display option : horizontal, vertical, list...

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by Jenny » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:01 am

Please note that for the 1.0 version of Joomla there is Accessible Joomla!
http://www.duvien.com/blog/p,151/

and a8ejoomla
http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/a8ejoomla/
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Marpo Multimedia http://marpomultimedia.com

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Re: Joomla going Tableless?

Post by mellian » Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:10 pm

MMMedia wrote: Please note that for the 1.0 version of Joomla there is Accessible Joomla!
http://www.duvien.com/blog/p,151/

and a8ejoomla
http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/a8ejoomla/
Ah, thats what I was looking for. Thank you. :)


-mellian
Last edited by mellian on Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 

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