I'm Confused About the Future of Joomla

[webgyrl]

OK- I have tried to read the threads with regards to the licensing issues, but since I'm not deeply involved in coding with Joomla, I have to admit to being confused.

I have some questions/concerns:

I've been using Joomla for all my sites and clients sites for the last 1.5 years now. I rely heavily on Joomla and it's related 3rd party components to develop all sites I work on.

Lately, many of the components I use have had the projects dropped because of licensing issues with Joomla.

Needless to say, I'm a bit freaked out right now that something is going to break on one of the sites I manage, and I'll be in hot water because there is no more support for the component.

Someone over at the SMF forums told me to switch to Mambo to get their bridge to work since the Joomlahacks one is no longer supported or working.

What a pain the arse it's going to be for me to switch all my clients over to Mambo. I really don't want to do this.

So can someone 'in the know' tell me with some certainty if Joomla will figure out these issues with the 3rd party component people and if they do not, what is going to happen to all of the wonderful extensions that made Joomla so attractive to me in the first place?

I'm utterly confused and feel like part of my business is in jeopardy now that all this mess is happening.

Should I switch to another CMS totally? Gosh, that would suck because I am not a coder and I've not got time or patience really to learn another system. I'm sure I could, but I already have enough headaches in my life!

Can someone help bring clarity and focus to what is going on with Joomla?

Thanks!

[webgyrl]

Well, I guess most of the sites can run as long as I don't upgrade Joomla. I really may need to think of an alternative CMS, tho the thought of that makes me head splinter in a thousand pieces right now.

Maybe I need to just find a good programmer who could do side work for me? Whenever I got on Joomlancers, the quotes I get are ridiculously high. Is there anywhere else to look. Basically I'd just want a freelance to help me out with bits of code here and there.

This is really quite sad.

Everything was just fine! Why couldn't Joomla core just let these 3rd party people keep on as they were? I had no problems paying for 3rd party things if there was a fee.

[mcsmom]

Joomla! has not done anything to the developers except make it clear that the Joomla!1.5  license will be GPL and that in the opinion of the lawyers many/most extensions are probably derivative work.

That is the only thing that has happened.

[Jenny]

Just as with any CMS there will be developers and 3PDs that come and go.  This experience is nothing new.  It has always been a part of every single open source project I have ever known, and some proprietary software.

There are no guarantees that any software will always be available.  Not even $icrosoft guarantees that.

If you are having issues, why don't you post a question on the forums?  There are 1000's of people willing to help.

[webgyrl]

Just as with any CMS there will be developers and 3PDs that come and go.  This experience is nothing new.  It has always been a part of every single open source project I have ever known, and some proprietary software.

There are no guarantees that any software will always be available.  Not even $icrosoft guarantees that.

If you are having issues, why don't you post a question on the forums?  There are 1000's of people willing to help.

Very true.

I have found some help on the forums, but some things, especially where 3rd party components are concerned, I don't get help for as people don't know the answers. I usually have to go to the developer. And now they are running away.

Anyway, I really do love Joomla, so I'll just see how things go.

[aoirthoir]

Just to clarify a bit, please understand that Mambo, as Joomla, makes use of code from copyright holders besides those of the original Mambo developer. (Others can correct me if this statement is not factual.) Any of those copyright holders could seek compliance from Mambo developers, as as well as from Joomla! developers. Again, moving to Mambo does not solve the issue, because if Mambo does in fact contain code from other developers, its main developer has absolutely no right to disavow the license on their contributed code. If Mambo's team is saying that developers do not have to adhere to the license, unless they own *all* of the code in their project, or unless they have gotten permission from *all* of the copyright holders, they are mistaken. The move by some to Mambo because of its allowance of non-GPL compliant licenses only creates a false sense of security. The Joomla! team has solved this problem by informing everyone of the need to abide by the terms of the license now. There will be no future surprises.

Now to put you at ease, the extensions you currently run are fine. Unless you seek to distribute those extensions, which the current licensing they are under most likely forbids anyhow,  you are probably not in violation. There is a chance that you have distributed the extensions to your clients. However even if you have done so, there is no need to worry, since the transition to voluntary GPL compliance will be a slow and gentle one. But if you purchased the extensions as an agent of your client, you are probably fine there as well.

The first suggestion I have, is that you inform your developers that you are you are quite happy with their extensions and wish to continue to support them. You were willing to pay for proprietary extensions, and if the extensions is good, you will continue to pay for it, and upgrades, when it is GPL compliant.

Next, if the developer is absolutely unwilling to support you moving forward, gather together a list of all of the extensions that you are using. There have been discussions from the community about replacing extensions that are no longer supported with brand new code. Listing your extensions is a good first step in this direction. How many sites are you running? Also you stated the quotes are ridiculously high. What is high to you? And how does that compare to how you are getting paid by your clients? Are you under valuing your services? Could you charge more? Regardless of the answer to these questions, what do you consider a reasonable price for the things you need?

You see all of these questions taken together can begin to lay out a plan should your developers not consider helping you along in the future. The cost may be less than a move to Mambo, or it may be higher. But certainly understanding all of these points can provide the direction you should move from here forward.

Everything was just fine! Why couldn't Joomla core just let these 3rd party people keep on as they were? I had no problems paying for 3rd party things if there was a fee.

They may continue to charge a fee, any fee they want actually. They may also charge for other services, support, training, custom code, and a host of other products and services. If someone stated to you that they are not allowed to charge, they have misunderstood the terms of the GNU GPL and passed that misunderstanding on to you.

Also as pointed out, here and on other topics, Joomla!'s teams do not have the right to tell anyone that they can violate the license of other's software (that in this case is contained within Joomla!). For the present the 3rd party people can keep on as they were. Certainly if your developers found out someone was violating their license, they would want the person to comply. Typically this means paying them money. With the GNU GPL, compliance only means passing the same rights to others, that you yourself received. This adjustment to comply with the license of so many contributers, will be a gradual one, with no sudden moves made by the Joomla! teams. 

I have found some help on the forums, but some things, especially where 3rd party components are concerned, I don't get help for as people don't know the answers. I usually have to go to the developer. And now they are running away.

Hopefully many of them will change their minds when they see that they have a potential customer base that is willing to continue. Of course, some will not. However, Joomla! itself will continue to grow and will thrive. Along with Joomla! then, the existing developers that remain, and those that join their ranks, will also thrive.

Hope this information helps.

[webgyrl]

aoirthoir!

Wow, your post really has helped me. I was really confused about the entire matter, but you have explained things and allayed my fears.

I guess the thing with Open Source is that nothing is guaranteed, as is the case with even some proprietary software!

I develop a lot of free sites for people with no budget. I also develop what I would consider low end to mid end sites. Smallish sites, mostly for musicians and artisans who don't have a lot of money to spend.

When I went on Joomlancers, I was seeking someone to tweak several scripts to make a certain component and I got quotes of 5,000, which was way, way out of the price range I thought. I was thinking maybe $500- but that could have been my bad judgement on the work needed to be done.

Maybe what I need to do is find a coder who I can hire freelance. As it is I make between 0 - $40 an hour depending on the client as I work on a sliding scale. I could charge more, but I think my clientele would find anything above $40 too much. Sure, maybe I am undervaluing myself, but I'd rather take that work at my current expertise level, than nothing and I do get a certain joy out of creating a site for someone who would otherwise not be able to afford a web presence. I'm a bit of a sucker I suppose!

Now if I could find someone to modify code or help out, maybe that would help. But I am not sure that someone could work for free, so it would only have to be on the projects I get paid for. Would $15-$20 an hour be an insult to someone? I don't know. I guess I haven't asked the right questions to find the right coders.

I honestly don't have time to do the learning. I am a graphic designer, who turned into a web site developer out of pure circumstance and now I get a lot of web site type stuff, hence my move to Joomla actually. Joomla makes my life much easier!

I am going to take steps do do as you say. I've spoken with some Developers, but a few of the ones for extensions I was using, just got all huffy and took down their sites and I can't even get in touch with them. They seriously deserted. Now in  a way that's good as I probably don't want to work with people like that. But as you can imagine, it's a shock to be using something and see a site up one day, and the next... poof... gone. I'm still reeling a bit from that.

I think a main focus right now would be for me to make a list of absolute necessary components and see what's going on with those developers. From there, I will have to see who's doing what and what sort of support I will be getting. I know that some of these dropped projects have been picked up, so I just have to find who picked them up.

I feel better now actually. You put things in plain English for me. I have to say the GPL discussion thread is very daunting to read. For people like me, who perhaps don't quite understand what's going on, you have really helped to clarify.

I've loved Joomla since I first discovered it and don't want to use another CMS. So I will stick with it and see what happens.

[Toni Marie]

You might also find that the paid extensions or people who were doing GPL who "deserted" anyway (and we actually think many will return when the dust settles) , there are equally good or better GPL extensions out there.  I also think GPL-dedicated developers may decide to fill in the gaps if there *aren't* adequate extensions out there.