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The Lounge

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:11 pm
by FerretLife
The Lounge
Relax and enjoy The Lounge. For all Non-Joomla! topics or ones that don't fit anywhere else. Normal forum rules apply.
I couple of questions:

Why is this discussion placed in The Lounge? This is probably the most important current topic on the forums. However, most of the 115,000 members probably don't know this discussion is here.

This area is supposed to be for opinions, yet it is impossible to give an opinion on any topic response. This makes it very difficult to carry a discussion.  Would the mods consider allowing Joomla forum members to post followup questions? If not, I believe the same questions/opinions are going to be posted over and over.

I had been a Mambo user back in the day, and gladly followed the devs to Joomla and never regretted it. But as a user there is concern for the future. Joomla is the core. The foundation for website development. I would have to assume almost every Joomla site ever built includes at least one extension. The flexibility and variety of extensions makes Joomla the perfect choice for most web site development. As severdia posted, roughly 16% of the extensions offered in the extensions area are commercial, and 81% are GPL. And yes, I am aware that commercial extensions can be GPL compliant. But I am also aware that many developers of those commercial extensions are also the developers of the GPL extensions that most of us users rely on. And many of those commercial extensions are listed twice. A basic GPL version, and a more extensive commercial version. If the commercial non-GPL developers decide Joomla is no longer a viable place for them to offer their products, not only would those commercial extensions disappear, but the GPL extensions also. Plus any possible future extensions from these developers will never be made. This is a concern to all Joomla users.

Reading post after post about lawyers is disconcerting.

louis.landry's post
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,183361.0.html
The notion that somehow the project has "outgrown" the GPL is silly in my opinion.  There seems to be an awful lot of people saying "its my way or the highway" and while I can appreciate someone who makes a stand on something they believe in, we are in no way obligated to change our license because of that sort of stance.
Isn't Joomla currently saying "its my way or the highway". In almost every response I read to a question on this subject, that is the feeling I get.
And
Thus far I don't believe the GPL has hindered the Joomla! project or been detrimental, it has in fact allowed us to exist and done nothing to stifle innovation or progress along the way.  The GPL has been our license ... it has worked effectively for us since way back before installable extensions even existed for Mambo.
While the GPL may have not been detrimental to Joomla core development and progress, now that the talk of GPL enforcement has arisen, it has done much to stifle innovation and  progress on a host of both GPL and non-GPL commercial extensions. And yes, I'm sure the GPL was perfect for Mambo when there were no installable extensions. But that doesn't apply here. Unless Joomla plans on reverting to that. Joomla has evolved and changed, and is on the cusp of a huge leap. Maybe it is time for its view on licensing needs to evolve also?

Again this is the opinion of one Joomla user, with no stake in Joomla or extension development, other than the need to rely on both.

Re: The Lounge

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:55 pm
by Jenny
As has been stated time and time again... Joomla! has no choice as to the license it must carry.  Joomla! is GPL, has always been GPL,  and has to continue to be GPL at this time.

Re: The Lounge

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:58 pm
by FerretLife
MMMedia wrote: As has been stated time and time again... Joomla! has no choice as to the license it must carry.  Joomla! is GPL, has always been GPL,  and has to continue to be GPL at this time.



Hi MMMedia,

I understand and have read that over and over. And even if Joomla had a choice (which I know they don't), they (OSM and the dev's) have every right to license and enforce that license on their project as they see fit.

The unfortunate thing is as it stands, 3pd's don't have that right. All I am hoping for is a way to figure out some flexibility for everyone's benefit. If that flexibility never happens, I doubt there will be a mass exodus from Joomla. I will happily continue to use and recommend it to anyone. My concern is as an end user. I have purchased extensions, including those that are encrypted, and use many GPL open source extensions. Joomla is a fantastic core, extensions make it come alive. If 3pd's do leave, we will not only lose their non-GLP compliant extensions but the open source GPL extensions they also create. And they do create a lot of them.

99% of those on this forum are neither directly affiliated with Joomla, nor are we 3rd party developers. We are end users. We depend on both Joomla and 3PD's. We just hope that we can get past this issue to everyone's benefit.

I can only speak for myself, but I am concerned.

PS: Thank you to all the mods for taking the time to discuss this issue, and allowing us to have a voice and a chance to throw in our 2 cents worth.

Re: The Lounge

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:00 pm
by mcsmom
FerretLife,

That is an excellent post that speaks for many of us.

Re: The Lounge

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:17 pm
by Jenny
The unfortunate thing is as it stands, 3pd's don't have that right.
3PDs have the exact same rights as anyone else that utilizes Joomla! does, that Joomla! itself has.  The license gives them those rights.  It gives everyone the same rights.

Just as Joomla! and the community are adapting, so should the 3PD's, and the community as a whole is here to help them adapt, and help each other adapt to these changes.  It is a going to be a gradual process, but I truly think that there is room for everyone to do what they need to do within the GPL license.  Others may not agree with me, and that is okay too.

I agree with Elin that your post speaks for many of us.  Everyone is concerned, the whole community from the newest user, to the most experienced core team member, from the newest 3PD to the oldest 3PD.  It will take everyone together to come up with solutions that can work.

Re: The Lounge

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:10 pm
by Toni Marie
Yes Joomla doesn't have the right to license itself as it sees fit.  It is beholden to the Miro, Mambo, and other GPL licenses it derives its code from.

That's the problem with this new suggestion to comply with the GPL license.  It's not Joomla saying they will enforce the GPL license, it's Joomla saying "we found out we can't offer exceptions to the GPL license for our 3PDs, now we have to all get into compliance with the license for the code we've all been using all this time."

It's a lawyer thing, and nothing anyone can help.  OSM has said they will help any 3PD who needs it to get their code and license into compliance.  Johann has said in the past that they are trying to separate the core from the extensions enough to allow LGPL, or something... I"m not really good with the license terminology, but it looks like things will become slightly more flexible in future versions (like Joomla 2.0).