How rude! So frustrating!

*IF* you want to share your opinion on the GPL issue, this is the place for you.
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ChuckTrukk
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How rude! So frustrating!

Post by ChuckTrukk » Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:17 pm

But if you believe that free (as in beer) open source software is not a good model, I suggest you don't use Joomla!. Please purchase a commercial CMS.

- Elin
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg879665
Please. This is NOT A RELEVANT LEVEL OF DISCOURSE.

Ok.

There are two sides to this argument. We CAN BE CIVIL. Many people disagree that addons must are derivative and must be GPL. I believe that. HOWEVER, I also believe wholeheartedly in GPL and Joomla staying GPL. It does not have to be an either or. But that's not the point of this post.

The above quote, and the feeling behind it (which I've felt in a few instances lately from J! Teams), is ridiculous. It says "We are not all together" but "My way or the highway BUD".

Please refrain from such talk and attitude.

Chuck
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Re: How rude! So frustrating!

Post by mcsmom » Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:53 pm

That was in a response to someone saying that all free/free software is terrible. If that is what someone believes, Joomla! is not for them.
Joomla! is free like in beer AND free like in freedom.
If a poster is going to insult people who create software for free and the products the create, he or she should expect to be called on it.


Thisis what that post was in response to:
From a quality, stability and ongoing reliability perspective I need to know whether software will be available.  That means that the person/s producing it need to earn something from it so that they keep their attention on it.
The core developers and work group members and other are not paid but they do a fantastic job of developing Joomla!.
Last edited by mcsmom on Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How rude! So frustrating!

Post by Jenny » Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:49 pm

ChuckTrukk wrote:
But if you believe that free (as in beer) open source software is not a good model, I suggest you don't use Joomla!. Please purchase a commercial CMS.

- Elin
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg879665
Please. This is NOT A RELEVANT LEVEL OF DISCOURSE.

Ok.

There are two sides to this argument. We CAN BE CIVIL. Many people disagree that addons must are derivative and must be GPL. I believe that. HOWEVER, I also believe wholeheartedly in GPL and Joomla staying GPL. It does not have to be an either or. But that's not the point of this post.

The above quote, and the feeling behind it (which I've felt in a few instances lately from J! Teams), is ridiculous. It says "We are not all together" but "My way or the highway BUD".

Please refrain from such talk and attitude.

Chuck
I find it interesting that you didn't find the original poster's comments rude and uncivil.  For them to insult everyone that volunteers to the Joomla! project is NOT A RELEVANT LEVEL OF DISCOURSE. (to coin your phrase)
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Re: How rude! So frustrating!

Post by ChuckTrukk » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:12 pm

Mostly that means that we can't rely on 3PD's who are not, themselves, commercial since they can't usually afford to dedicate time to keeping the software current and removing bugs.

Look, for instance, at the OpenSEO community where the developer is assailed with regular attacks by frustrated users waiting for updates.  He doesn't charge, relies on donations ... and isn't supported sufficiently to dedicate his full time to the product.

There are some fantastic pieces of free software out there.  There are also some fantastic commercial suites.
From my understanding, his post was speaking of 3PD's. He spoke of OpenSEO as an example.
Mostly that means that we can't rely on 3PD's who are not, themselves, commercial since they can't usually afford to dedicate time to keeping the software current and removing bugs.
I did not see that as an affront to the Joomla core. I believe the J! core does a GREAT job. And I don't see anything in his post that stated that- since he was mainly speaking about 3PD's.

The J! core has a solid group of core coders and a huge official and non-offical team that supports the J! core. Most small addons do not have that. Some propietary addons have that. The J! core is reliable and has a huge team working on development, testing, and support. It looked to me like he was stating commercial/proprietary devs offer that same level of support because they can count on the propietary income from their IP and hire the people needed.
There are some fantastic pieces of free software out there.  There are also some fantastic commercial suites.
From that quote, I do not see him saying "That was in a response to someone saying that all free/free software is terrible. (mcsmom).
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Re: How rude! So frustrating!

Post by Jenny » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:52 pm

From a quality, stability and ongoing reliability perspective I need to know whether software will be available.  That means that the person/s producing it need to earn something from it so that they keep their attention on it.
In saying that, they are insulting everyone that volunteers to the project.  The volunteers no matter what they do for the project do it because they love it.  To complain about it and put it down is just wrong.  Instead of complaining why don't they volunteer to help?  If they helped them perhaps they would actually really know that the software will be available.  Making money isn't the end all and be all to everyone.  And a lot of people don't have to be monetarily compensated to "keep their attention on something".
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Rudeness

Post by HarryB » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:53 pm

In reference to: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg880123

I must say I agree that the original poster's comments were about 3PDs and were not meant to embarrass or denigrate the Joomla! team.

My OPINION is that some of  you on the Joomla! team need to start reading these posts literally and quit with the "My way or the Highway" and the gratuitous "See your Lawyer" responses. 

I'm quite sure that 99.999% of us have gotten the message that Joomla! was,  is and will continue to be GPL. And we will all have to deal with it in our own way as best we can. I personally got that message way back in the Mambo days and really don't need to be re-educated on a daily basis.

Have a nice Day  :)
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Re: How rude! So frustrating!

Post by Jenny » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:57 pm

Just to clarify, I consider those that support the project by supplying GPL extensions are just as much volunteers as anyone else in the community, hence my reference to "volunteers".
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Re: Rudeness

Post by HarryB » Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:32 am

In reference to: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg880352

The Joomla! volunteers deserve every bit of credit and recognition they get  for giving the world an easy to use, feature-rich CMS.  But if I have to carefully choose every word I write here for fear of insulting one or more of the the Joomla! team, I guess I better just not say anything. 

I personally have not done any "formal" volunteering, but I like to think I've contributed some little bit over the years with both Mambo and Joomla!  But more and more, I get the feeling that this is no longer the place for me to be spending my time...getting the same eerie feeling I had during the Mambo Wars. 

I wish Joomla! all the good fortune they deserve and more.  But I'm outta here at least for the foreseeable future.

Good luck to all...both the Joomla! guys and the 3PDs.
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Re: How rude! So frustrating!

Post by ChuckTrukk » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:04 am

He was not sniping at 'volunteers'. HE WAS SPEAKING OF 3PD'S!

Then he said 'THERE ARE SOME FANTASTIC PIECES OF FREE SOFTWARE OUT THERE'.

Then you got offended and told him 'PLEASE PURCHASE COMMERCIAL CMS'.

So HarryB is leaving for a while. Eyezberg is leaving for a while. Why?

THIS IS NOT 'ALL TOGETHER FOR ALL'. I feel like you look at me as the bad-guy.

Plus, if you tell people 'take a hike', they will.

edit: removed nasty, un-becoming snipe. I apologize.
Last edited by ChuckTrukk on Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How rude! So frustrating!

Post by mcsmom » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:07 am

Look, understand what my post said.

That poster and a number of others said that the quality of work and support on free/free software--in this case extensions--is poor and he does not want to use it. Therefore he wants Joomla! to allow non-gpl extensions.

I pointed out that if that if this  is his feeling he might consider that Joomla! itself is free/free software that is gpl. If he feels uncomfortable with the idea of free/free gpl software--if he assumes that it is by definition inferior to a not free/proprietary product--then he should examine his use of Joomla! itself.

If you are comfortable with using Joomla! then the argument that requiring 3PDs to license under gpl is bad because the work on non gpl extensions is so much better makes no sense.
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Re: Rudeness

Post by mcsmom » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:12 am

Harry.

Thanks for your post and your useful graphic.

I'm sorry that you think pointing out to people that Joomla! is free as in beer is rude, but it is a fat that people seem to forget.

FYI, I read every post very carefully. I know exactly what that poster said and simply carried to logic of his argument to the next level. That is if you are not comfortable using a free /free extension because they are written by unpaid people, you should ask yourself whether you should be comfortable using a free/free underlying product written by unpaid people.
Last edited by mcsmom on Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How rude! So frustrating!

Post by LorenzoG » Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:23 am

mcsmom wrote: That poster and a number of others said that the quality of work and support on free/free software--in this case extensions--is poor and he does not want to use it. Therefore he wants Joomla! to allow non-gpl extensions.
I want to add that quality of work and support for an Joomla! extension can't be generalized by the licence type, if it's GPL or proprietary. You can find GPL extensions for Joomla with very high quality and support, both commercial, developer driven and team driven, like you can find it's proprietary counterparts. You can also find very poor and buggy GPL extensions with no support like you can find proprietary commercial counterpart extensions there the extensions are buggy and the dev. leaving poor service to their customers.
Last edited by LorenzoG on Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

 

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