Is Joomla dying?

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babygekko
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Is Joomla dying?

Post by babygekko » Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:23 pm

I've been watching the whole saga about Joomla. My prediction: you'll see very many people migrating to Mambo...

- The brightest contributors to Joomla, the people who made the best 3rd party extensions are leaving
- Some core developer team have left, some joined Mambo Foundation.
- The developer of OpenSEF have stated that they're switching to Mambo. See www.j-prosolution.com.
- Joomla core developer team has never created an original CMS. Joomla's original code was Mambo, and Mambo Foundation allows the creation of commercial extension, whatever license I choose. This means freedom for everyone, including users.
- I'm switching to Mambo too for all my development work starting in August. Sometimes there are commercial components which qualities can't be matched with GPL ones because the developers put a lot of their time and effort into it, not just for hobby. This is important for my customers.

I was about to release a commercial component for Joomla within a month but alas this whole license problem happened.

As you may notice, commercial Joomla developers contributed back to this community by developing GPL extensions too. The best 3rd party GPL extensions are almost always developed by a commercial Joomla developers. JoomlaWorks, Compass Design, Phil Taylor, etc. My point is: without 3rd party developers, Joomla is just another dying CMS like the *nuke. If it weren't because of the 3rd party developers, Joomla wouldn't have been at this stage. Things are about to change now, and it is happening very rapidly.

PS# Shouldn't the Joomla team start to clean up those evil, non-GPL commercial extensions in J.E.D :)

 
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Re: Is Joomla dying?

Post by Jenny » Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:35 pm

Re: Is Joomla dying?
No
PS# Shouldn't the Joomla team start to clean up those evil, non-GPL commercial extensions in J.E.D
See this thread: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... w.html#new

Good luck!
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Re: Is Joomla dying?

Post by mcsmom » Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:37 pm

Good luck in all of your future endeavors.
So we must fix our vision not merely on the negative expulsion of war, but upon the positive affirmation of peace. MLK 1964.
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Re: Is Joomla dying?

Post by aoirthoir » Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:18 pm

Joomla's original code was Mambo, and Mambo Foundation allows the creation of commercial extension, whatever license I choose. This means freedom for everyone, including users.
Mambo may only allow proprietary extensions (non-GPL compatible extensions) as long as the copyright holders of _all_ of the code that Mambo uses agree. If Mambo contains code from other projects, then the copyright holders of those projects have as much ability to enforce their license on Mambo's downstream as Mambo does. This places those that do not comply with the license of those (non-Mambo) upstream copyright holders in a difficult situation, should compliance ever be actively sought by the copyright holders.

However in response to the rest of your post, Joomla! is not and will not die. The entire project is moving forward with a renewed vigor thanks to the very clarifications of the license that the Core Team has made (and was sought by third party developers.).
Joseph James Frantz

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Is joomla dying?

Post by gws » Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:57 pm

Strange, I have to start a new topic to comment on the original post and yet moderators and core can reply, seems very Orwellian. I do not think Joomla will die however a lot of bright people are moving over to Mambo and that may make Mambo a more attractive option in the future. Such a shame all this has gone on. :'(

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Re: Is joomla dying?

Post by Jenny » Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:00 pm

aoirthoir wrote:
Joomla's original code was Mambo, and Mambo Foundation allows the creation of commercial extension, whatever license I choose. This means freedom for everyone, including users.
Mambo may only allow proprietary extensions (non-GPL compatible extensions) as long as the copyright holders of _all_ of the code that Mambo uses agree. If Mambo contains code from other projects, then the copyright holders of those projects have as much ability to enforce their license on Mambo's downstream as Mambo does. This places those that do not comply with the license of those (non-Mambo) upstream copyright holders in a difficult situation, should compliance ever be actively sought by the copyright holders.

However in response to the rest of your post, Joomla! is not and will not die. The entire project is moving forward with a renewed vigor thanks to the very clarifications of the license that the Core Team has made (and was sought by third party developers.).
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Re: Is joomla dying?

Post by Aris Ntatsis » Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:01 pm

gws wrote: Strange, I have to start a new topic to comment on the original post and yet moderators and core can reply, seems very Orwellian. I do not think Joomla will die however a lot of bright people are moving over to Mambo and that may make Mambo a more attractive option in the future. Such a shame all this has gone on. :'(
So, =i think you give the right answer: Is joomla dying? > No...  ;)
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Re: Is joomla dying?

Post by mcsmom » Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:03 pm

This post is not about GPL.

update:
See below, thanks mmmedia.
Last edited by mcsmom on Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
So we must fix our vision not merely on the negative expulsion of war, but upon the positive affirmation of peace. MLK 1964.
http://officialjoomlabook.com Get it at http://www.joomla.org/joomla-press-official-books.html Buy a book, support Joomla!.

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Re: Is joomla dying?

Post by Jenny » Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:04 pm

I am going to merge it with the other post.
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Re: Is Joomla dying?

Post by babygekko » Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:48 am

Pardon me, ma'am, but isn't this a double standard? The Joomla team is trying to get rid of the evil non-GPL extensions, and yet they're still using them to promote Joomla in the J.E.D? No offense, but this is a bit hypocritical, yes? In fact, I think it is very hypocritical. I couldn't see a single bit of congruence here... can someone please enlighten me?

A clean break is the best option for everyone; leaving commercial extensions in the J.E.D for much longer won't do no good for anybody. Please just remove the non-GPL commercial extensions now and stop using them for promoting Joomla.
MMMedia wrote: See this thread: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... w.html#new
Good luck!
gws wrote: Strange, I have to start a new topic to comment on the original post and yet moderators and core can reply, seems very Orwellian. I do not think Joomla will die however a lot of bright people are moving over to Mambo and that may make Mambo a more attractive option in the future. Such a shame all this has gone on. :'(
Yes, it is a shame that this is all happening. It's like "bait and switch" ... and those commercial developers have helped Joomla for the 1.5 testing too. The very same people who did this to 3rd party developers will also react the same way if it was the other way around.

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Re: Is Joomla dying?

Post by babygekko » Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:18 am

Ma'am, are you sure that SugarCRM extensions are GPL. I have used them in the past for my clients. Have you visited  http://www.sugarexchange.com/ before you copy and pasted those quotes to justify your reasoning? Do you know what license they have? Have you truly researched the companies you mentioned?

For an example: http://www.sugarexchange.com/product_de ... roduct=381

Can you now please remove the non-GPL extensions in the Joomla Extensions Directory, stop using those evil extensions and be congruent about your intention, for once - at least.  :)
AmyStephen wrote: +++++

Don't be surprised to see IDC revise its figures upward by this time next year.

John Roberts, CEO, SugarCRM

+++++

The advantages of open source development and distribution methodologies are transcending the initial 'low cost' discussions and actually delivering features and functionality beyond what's available from proprietary vendors.

Dave Rosenberg, CEO, MuleSource

+++++

Top tier analysts seem to agree that the stars are aligning for open source - not only from an adoption and revenue perspective - but as a serious threat to legacy proprietary players.

Ranga Rangachari, CEO, GroundWork Open Source

+++++

The biggest 'sea change' driving the new market growth that IDC forecasts is the mainstreaming of OSS products in the mind of customers. To them, it's all just software after all, and buying decisions are made simply on product functionality (esp. ease of use), price, and the likelihood of quality support going forward.

Bob Walters, CEO, Untangle

+++++

The IDC numbers are a nice proof point for what we've been seeing around the globe and support what we're experiencing with our own business - an increase in adoption in both the Alfresco community and with subscription customers that has resulted in a 300% increase in revenues.

John Powell, CEO, Alfresco

+++++

DC's latest research tells us that Linux and open source software will continue to outpace proprietary alternatives.

Jim Zemlin, Executive Director, The Linux Foundation

+++++

The IDC numbers reaffirm for us something we all know - open source software is growing because it solves real problems for customers. 

Dominic Sartorio, President, Open Solutions Alliance

+++++

The IDC report shows what our customers have been telling us - the horse is out of the barn for open source software.

Steve Grandchamp, CEO, OpenLogic

+++++

I expect that the IDC predictions will be widely surpassed, as open source moves beyond early adopters to mainstream users looking for openness and value.

Fabrizio Capobianco, CEO, Funambol

+++++

We know that successful open source projects, like JasperServer and JasperReports, are seeing enormous traction in the market and are multiplying their revenues each quarter.

Paul Doscher, CEO, Jaspersoft

+++++

The IDC numbers reflect a realization by the market that open source software is addressing the long-running frustrations customers have with proprietary software.

Gerald Labie, CEO, Open-Xchange

+++++

Open source software usage is harder to measure but is having a dramatic impact on small- to medium-sized businesses, both for management that assesses and buys software and for end-users taking advantage of browser-based app use and development.

Tad Gordon, CEO, Lumen Software

+++++

For those of you who believe these examples do not relate to your proprietary software, you are probably right. 

But, for those of you who are ready to check out this market space and figure out a workable business plan that cashes in on the long tail of open source software usage, things are looking good. You might want to thank the Joomla! copyright holders since this open source market is predicted to have significant growth potential. I hope for you the kind of success predicted by these CEOs. 

+++++

All together, as a whole,
Amy

PS - I wouldn't wait around for someone else to explain how to cash in on this opportunity. Those who think they might have it figured out are probably busy!

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Re: Is Joomla dying?

Post by mcsmom » Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:57 am

I would really suggest you read the relevant materials on this site and elsewhere.

The JED issue has been discussed ad nauseum and the answers will not be changing.

The only people who have called proprietary developers evil are the proprietary developers who make up things about the core team.

It's very amusing that people keep trying to provoke the team to act quickly.  What is the motive here? Please explain what you are trying to achieve.  Because if it isn't constructive, I want to know why you do it.
So we must fix our vision not merely on the negative expulsion of war, but upon the positive affirmation of peace. MLK 1964.
http://officialjoomlabook.com Get it at http://www.joomla.org/joomla-press-official-books.html Buy a book, support Joomla!.

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Re: Is Joomla dying?

Post by Jenny » Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:08 am

I don't think there was any mention that SugarCRM extensions are GPL.

What was used was a quote from John Roberts, CEO, SugarCRM, from an article located here: http://weblog.infoworld.com/ittroublesh ... .html  that is reporting on the open source software market.

Did you miss that bit?

[quote="babygekko "]
Ma'am, are you sure that SugarCRM extensions are GPL. I have used them in the past for my clients. Have you visited  http://www.sugarexchange.com/ before you copy and pasted those quotes to justify your reasoning? Do you know what license they have? Have you truly researched the companies you mentioned?

For an example: http://www.sugarexchange.com/product_de ... roduct=381

Can you now please remove the non-GPL extensions in the Joomla Extensions Directory, stop using those evil extensions and be congruent about your intention, for once - at least.  :)
Last edited by Jenny on Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Joomla dying?

Post by babygekko » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:29 am

Hardly  ;)

You missed the whole point.

Anyway, I will no longer reply to anything posted in this forum. You can say whatever you'd like.

I will only be posting in Mambo forum and JCD-A.

Have a better weekend,
Prana
Last edited by brad on Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Joomla dying?

Post by mcsmom » Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:24 am

Wow, 8 posts in a week and two are good-bye-cruel-world.  ;)

But again, good luck in the future, I hope mambo serves your needs.
So we must fix our vision not merely on the negative expulsion of war, but upon the positive affirmation of peace. MLK 1964.
http://officialjoomlabook.com Get it at http://www.joomla.org/joomla-press-official-books.html Buy a book, support Joomla!.

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Re: Is Joomla dying?

Post by LorenzoG » Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:46 pm

I think you can find your answers in the announcement.
http://www.joomla.org/content/view/3510/1/
We are very much aware that a lot of people make their living around Joomla!, and we are sensitive to producing sudden disruptions in livelihoods.
Next, we ask people in the community to voluntarily comply with the license. At the same time, we try to help people understand what it takes to comply and how they can do it easily. We believe we're going to get a lot of compliance that way.

and the JED itself isn't GPL
we clean our own house and bring the Joomla! sites into compliance.
Joomla! is a unique project with unique needs and unique GPL issues. Solutions won't just come off the shelf. There are solutions and compromises on these issues that we are still exploring
I'm aware that you can find some very loud people (strange enough developers that living on Joomla!) make fun of us because JED isn't in compliance and why we don't remove all proprietary extensions.. and why we don't do it immediately!

We must be aware that Joomla! is a really big community with a huge userbase, and now I'm talking about huge. We have responsibility both for the 3rd party dev's and the community. If we should start to unpublish proprietary extensions it would get severe consequences for the 3rd party developers that have their livehood on Joomla! It isn't of a reason that some developers are talking about to unpublish their GPL extensions as a protest act and not the commercial ones from JED. Because the commercial 3rd party developers know that a big part of their customers are coming from joomla.org. This shouldn't either benefit the community which we all are working for.

We don't see the 3rd party proprietary developers as evil or demoniacal as some few are saying for to make us look bad, in fact they are our friends and many of them have put a lot of time and efforts to our community.

We have to give every proprietary developer time for to make their minds up, investigate their possibilities, give them time to make their licenses compliant and giving them possibility to move to other projects if some feel for it.

We also need time in the community for to adapt us, for to do so that we can continue to offer an environment that attract and do that 3rd party commercial developers can continue to have their livehood on their extensions for the benefit of the community. Work is in progress but solutions won't come over a night.

We shouldn't also forget that we are an open source community with many individual and team driven successful GPL extensions with superb quality and support and with interactions from the whole community. We are also working with ideas how to facilitate and stimulate such projects and interactions.

Only in May we published a bit over 100 new GPL extensions in JED. Together that we get bigger and bigger for each day, the very promising upcoming Joomla! 1.5, our very strong community, our huge userbase (something crucial for commercial devs) and our dedicated WG groups (developers, translators, quality and testing, documentation and design and accessibility) then I think you can figure out the answer on your main question "Is Joomla dying?" aswell.

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Re: Is Joomla dying?

Post by Jenny » Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:59 pm

I didn't realize you had a point.  I quoted you directly and corrected your misstatement. 

Enjoy, have fun, and good luck with everything. 
babygekko wrote: Hardly  ;)

You missed the whole point.

Anyway, I will no longer reply to anything posted in this forum. You can say whatever you'd like.

I will only be posting in Mambo forum and JCD-A.

Have a better weekend,
Prana
Last edited by brad on Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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