GPL, Joomla and Making money

*IF* you want to share your opinion on the GPL issue, this is the place for you.
Locked
User avatar
jamesk
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:36 am
Contact:

GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by jamesk » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:25 pm

I've received emails from some 3rd party add on products I bought (iJoomla, etc):
Ever since Joomla was first started Joomla.org (and its parent organization OSM) encouraged commercial developers such as iJoomla to create products for Joomla. Now they claim that commercial products may violate the GPL license.....

Many of you have asked us if this dispute is going to change the way we do business. The answer is that we certainly hope it won't. What we want is to continue to provide you with great extensions and great support at an affordable price. I think it comes down to what YOU as a user want and need. Do you want to keep having the freedom to buy commercial extensions? If you do, then you should share that opinion with Joomla.org/OSM.
My opinion, after working in IT for well over 20 years is that the joomla core team are quite correct in clarifying the GPL license issue. The Law is the Law, joomla does not make the Law.

As explained:

1. Joomla is and always was GPL - this has legal implications as does any license/legal agreement one enters into.

2. Being Open Source (and good) is the reason for the huge and growing joomla user base - not the existence of commercial extensions.

3. Joomla can not be anything other then GPL because the code that it is based on is GPL, and the user community that it serves would NOT use it if it was not open source.

4. The commercial developers have always known this - or should have known this - and should use a compatible business model.


I use a number of 3rd party extensions and the question is, how can commercial 3rd party developers make money?

Well, there are many ways to make money working with open source, and lots of people are doing it - this will be the growth industry of the future.
Http://Glowing-Health.com - Alkaline Ionized Water
http://www.detoxifynow.com - Detox, Fasting and Cleansing

User avatar
lobos
Joomla! Explorer
Joomla! Explorer
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: Sao Paulo, Brasil
Contact:

re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by lobos » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:00 pm

2. Being Open Source (and good) is the reason for the huge and growing joomla user base - not the existence of commercial extensions.
Wrong, being open source is NOT the reason for Joomla'a growth. The reason is extensions, users can get the functionality they need. Take away the extensions and Joomla! is nothing - people would quickly switch to another solution that offered the diverse functionality that they require.
3. Joomla can not be anything other then GPL because the code that it is based on is GPL, and the user community that it serves would NOT use it if it was not open source.
Wrong again. They user community would use it with whatever license, just so long as it was free and had lots of extensions.
Well, there are many ways to make money working with open source, and lots of people are doing it - this will be the growth industry of the future.
I love how everyone is saying this, but please show me a GPL Joomla! Extension that is making decent money...

Please stop implying that the reason so many users are using Joomla is because it's open source, this is nonsense, the reason is because it's free and most importantly has many extensions. You could encode the framework the normal enduser would not know the difference.

-Lobos
Last edited by lobos on Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fish n' Chips

User avatar
Jenny
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion
Posts: 6238
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:25 pm
Contact:

Re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by Jenny » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:32 pm

Lobos you are forgetting one thing. 

The reason why Joomla! is free is because it is  GPL.  You have some points there, but the two go pretty much hand in hand, so lets be honest about it.  Some use it because it is free as in "no cost" and some use it because it is free as in "liberty" and some use it because of the combination.  Some may also use it and not care either way and just think it is a great piece of software that they can get things done with.  Any of those reason why, all stem from the fact that Joomla! is GPL.  If it wasn't for the GPL and the free as in "no cost" and free as in "liberty" Joomla! would not exist for people to use.
Co-author of the Official Joomla! Book http://officialjoomlabook.com
Marpo Multimedia http://marpomultimedia.com

User avatar
jamesk
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:36 am
Contact:

Re: re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by jamesk » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:25 pm

∓quot;lobos"\ wrote:
Wrong, being open source is NOT the reason for Joomla'a growth. The reason is extensions, users can get the functionality they need. Take away the extensions and Joomla! is nothing - people would quickly switch to another solution that offered the diverse functionality that they require.
I disagree. Can we have a vote/poll on this?

I reckon that very few people buy commercial extensions for Joomla (as a percentage of the no of joomla users, it'll probably be around 1%). But I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

Wrong again. They user community would use it with whatever license, just so long as it was free and had lots of extensions.
Yes, the community probably does not care about the license terms and is growing because it is free as are most of the extensions. However, this is not an argument in favor of COMMERCIAL extensions.

I love how everyone is saying this, but please show me a GPL Joomla! Extension that is making decent money...
can anyone provide examples of profitable businesses run that offer free extensions?
Please stop implying that the reason so many users are using Joomla is because it's open source, this is nonsense, the reason is because it's free and most importantly has many extensions. You could encode the framework the normal enduser would not know the difference.
I believe that this is true - the reason so many people are using it is because it is open source. To prove this, suppose Joomla was to offer 'Closed Joomla' where all source was encrypted as Microsoft products, how many people would use it?

I wouldn't.

The Open Source community is vital for everyone - without it, the Microsoft's, the Oracle's, SAP and other software giants would just clean up and there would be nothing left for anyone else. How long do you think it would take Microsoft to use it's army of ant like programmers to duplicate all the functionality in Joomla, and offer it initially for $10? They could incorporate all the commercial extension offerings for nothing too.
Http://Glowing-Health.com - Alkaline Ionized Water
http://www.detoxifynow.com - Detox, Fasting and Cleansing

User avatar
aoirthoir
Joomla! Explorer
Joomla! Explorer
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 1:18 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by aoirthoir » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:40 pm

Jamesk,

Good points all around. I would add though that the community does care about free and open source. Maybe not everyone. And maybe some care without realizing. After all, the fact that Joomla! is FOSS is what allows it to so easily be installed by web hosting providers.

Also I would counter Lobos' claim that the extensions are what have caused Joomla! use to grow, because he himself has stated he comes here because of the user base. If other extension developers do the same, and that user base only exists because of extensions, as he claims, this is a contradictory statement. The user base would not have been there prior to the extensions, since Joomla!'s growth is a result of the the extensions. Due to lack of the user base, extension developers would not have used Joomla and caused it to grow. After all, Joomla is not growing because of any merits on its own, or any FOSS related licensing, but because of the extension developers. So this creates the paradoxical chicken and egg scenario.

How about we say this, Joomla!'s growth can be contributed to a number of factors. They include but are not limited to such things as its FOSS license, its community structure, the dedication of the teams, the ability to enhance with extensions, the quality of the program, the excellence of templates available for it, the low barrier to entry, its installation by web hosting facilities...
Joseph James Frantz

User avatar
mcsmom
Joomla! Exemplar
Joomla! Exemplar
Posts: 7985
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:43 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by mcsmom » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:46 pm

Joomla! has a lot of extensions because Joomla! is open source.

It's a bit of a chicken and egg argument. Like all ecosystems there are complex mutual dependencies.
So we must fix our vision not merely on the negative expulsion of war, but upon the positive affirmation of peace. MLK 1964.
http://officialjoomlabook.com Get it at http://www.joomla.org/joomla-press-official-books.html Buy a book, support Joomla!.

User avatar
Trijnie
Joomla! Enthusiast
Joomla! Enthusiast
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: Stadskanaal, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by Trijnie » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:02 pm

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg906722

Hello all,
Joomla! has a lot of extensions because Joomla! is open source.

It's a bit of a chicken and egg argument. Like all ecosystems there are complex mutual dependencies.
No it's not a chicken and egg argument in this case. The core members of Joomla! forked another CMS who had a very strong giving community and strong commercial proprietary 3pd's. These were very loyal  to the core members they trusted and because of that, they were able to take these with them. Joomla! has a lot of extensions because the GNU GPL was always seen as Free (as in freedom) for everybody. During the move it was very clear that if Joomla! had 3pds, it had the potential to become huge.

Kind regards,

User avatar
Jenny
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion
Posts: 6238
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:25 pm
Contact:

Re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by Jenny » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:31 pm

Trijnie wrote: Joomla! has a lot of extensions because the GNU GPL was always seen as Free (as in freedom) for everybody. During the move it was very clear that if Joomla! had 3pds, it had the potential to become huge.

Kind regards,
I don't quite understand.  Freedom for everybody should mean real actual freedom for everybody, but the problem as I understand it is users don't get freedom when code is not modifiable and distributable.

So you don't really mean everybody.  You just mean freedom for 3PDs to do what they want to do, irregardless if that infringes on the freedom of the end user right?  Or do you mean that 3PDs should have absolute freedom, and users should get a lesser sort of freedom?

Should we now start quantifying units or levels of freedom and assign who gets how much?
Co-author of the Official Joomla! Book http://officialjoomlabook.com
Marpo Multimedia http://marpomultimedia.com

User avatar
aoirthoir
Joomla! Explorer
Joomla! Explorer
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 1:18 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by aoirthoir » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:36 pm

Trijnie,

Thank you for your post! This demonstrates unequivocally that Lobos claim is simply not true, and 3pds are not there 'just for the userbase'.
Joseph James Frantz

User avatar
Trijnie
Joomla! Enthusiast
Joomla! Enthusiast
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: Stadskanaal, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by Trijnie » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:21 pm

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg921635

Hello all,
I don't quite understand.  Freedom for everybody should mean real actual freedom for everybody, but the problem as I understand it is users don't get freedom when code is not modifiable and distributable.
Freedom as in make up your own mind. If you don't want to buy extensions then don't, thats your own choice. When I give away something always was GNU GPL, because in my comprehension, this license stood for no restrictions. It's not common sence to see proprietary add ons as such. My choice of add ons is based on how well they are developed and supported. I support all kind of licenses, when in need of a certain add-on. If my  clients are in need of that particular add on that is proprietary, I will send them to that page, or will buy the license myself if their not "net savy" enough. Freedom for my client, freedom for me. <--- no restrictions.
So you don't really mean everybody.  You just mean freedom for 3PDs to do what they want to do, irregardless if that infringes on the freedom of the end user right?  Or do you mean that 3PDs should have absolute freedom, and users should get a lesser sort of freedom?
No, I mean for everybody. But give the people who do want them the choice to do so. Perhaps I'm in a weird position because I am: (end)user, developer and clearly have an opinion supported by all my alter egos (mom, wive, business owner, jaddah).
Should we now start quantifying units or levels of freedom and assign who gets how much?
Freedom of choice is very important, like the freedom of expressing your own opinion.

Kind regards,

User avatar
Wendy
Joomla! Hero
Joomla! Hero
Posts: 2008
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:20 pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by Wendy » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:22 pm

Merging.

Trijnie, FYI, we've opened the boards up.  You can now reply directly to your topic of choice. 
Wendy Robinson
Joomla! Community Leadership Team member

User avatar
Trijnie
Joomla! Enthusiast
Joomla! Enthusiast
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: Stadskanaal, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by Trijnie » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:25 pm

Thank you WRobinson ;)
WRobinson wrote: Merging.

Trijnie, FYI, we've opened the boards up.  You can now reply directly to your topic of choice. 

User avatar
mcsmom
Joomla! Exemplar
Joomla! Exemplar
Posts: 7985
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:43 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by mcsmom » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:38 pm

As Karl Fogel puts it in his great book Managing Open Source Projects (which is great reading for everyone involved in open source, as manager or user or other roles), this argument about whether freedom means freedom to do whatever you feel like even if it means violating the gpl is one that comes up periodically in every single open source project. Eventually someone says, so you think freedom means freedom to own slaves? To kill people? That there are no limits? Then the other person responds, oh, don't make extreme statements, that isn't what i meant at all. Then the first person says, but, that is the logical conclusion of the freedom means there are no rules argument. And it continues in a circle. A successful development team will be successful by sticking to the code and not getting involved in energy sapping debates.

Anyway, this too will eventually pass just as it does on every other gpl project. And then doubtless it will come up again.People will learn how to cope. Solutions will be found. Everyone who is willing to do the needed work will make money if they satisfy their customers and pay attention to details. Coders will be famous in the coding world for their contributed code. People who like to argue about angels on the head of a pin will argue about angels on the head of a pin. Poison people will be poison people Life goes on.
So we must fix our vision not merely on the negative expulsion of war, but upon the positive affirmation of peace. MLK 1964.
http://officialjoomlabook.com Get it at http://www.joomla.org/joomla-press-official-books.html Buy a book, support Joomla!.

User avatar
Trijnie
Joomla! Enthusiast
Joomla! Enthusiast
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: Stadskanaal, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by Trijnie » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:52 pm

Hi Elin,

No....., freedom to express your own feelings, freedom to express your own mind, freedom to choose, freedom to decide for your self, freedom to speak for yourself, freedom to have an opinion, freedom to modify, freedom to distribute, freedom to connect to scripts, programs, software not restricted to GPL, freedom ect. as long as it does others no harm.

Kind regards,

User avatar
brad
Joomla! Master
Joomla! Master
Posts: 13419
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:38 am
Location: Sydney - Australia
Contact:

Re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by brad » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:58 pm

When you find the utopia you are looking for, I wish you all the best.
Brad Baker
https://xyzulu.hosting
https://www.joomlatutorials.com <-- Joomla Help & Tutorials

Asphyx
Joomla! Hero
Joomla! Hero
Posts: 2454
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:03 pm

Re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by Asphyx » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:22 am

Trinj - your utopia is quite possible...
Release every program you write to the public domain....
GPL isn't the vehicle for your dream....

Neither is making concessions for proprietary programs...
They are even less free than the GPL.

User avatar
jamesk
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:36 am
Contact:

Re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by jamesk » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:01 pm

I think that discussion along the lines of 'freedom' is leading to nowhere.

As I see it, an Open Source project is a collaborative software project - it is built from contributions from many people. Think of it as a research project in universities where the content is from scientists from different places - they contribute, look at others contributions, then build on that - and this process continues. This contrasts completely with 'proprietary' projects done by companies, where the content is 'top secret', patents, espionage and all the rest of it.

In the software marketplace over the last several years there have been consolidations, companies get bought up or merge - so now you are left with only a few. As I see it, this is bad news for everyone - bad for developers (you don't need many, and large corporations will take such 'coding' roles to cheaper locations like india and china), its bad news for companies (they are locked into using software, end up paying a fortune, lose control over their basic functions), and in the end it's bad news for the people that work for the large software giants.

With open source projects people contribute because they want to - but the question we need to address is how can they be paid for making those contributions so that they continue? In what other ways can for open source developers make some money?

With joomla, commercial extensions are a possibility - but what guidelines should there be?

What other possibilities for income are there, and how can this forum/joomla.org help?
Last edited by jamesk on Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Http://Glowing-Health.com - Alkaline Ionized Water
http://www.detoxifynow.com - Detox, Fasting and Cleansing

User avatar
brad
Joomla! Master
Joomla! Master
Posts: 13419
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:38 am
Location: Sydney - Australia
Contact:

Re: GPL, Joomla and Making money

Post by brad » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:09 pm

jamesk wrote: What other possibilities for income are there, and how can this forum/joomla.org help?
Commercial GPL, see:
http://www.alledia.com/blog/interviews/ ... lnerd.org/
http://www.alledia.com/blog/interviews/ ... einit.com/
http://www.alledia.com/blog/interviews/ ... or.za.net/

There are other ideas as well.. and more interviews.. I just have not had time to read them all.
Nice to see you wanting to work on constructive options, good for you!
Brad Baker
https://xyzulu.hosting
https://www.joomlatutorials.com <-- Joomla Help & Tutorials


Locked

Return to “GPL Discussion”