SMF bridge issue

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Re: SMF bridge issue

Postby mcsmom » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:27 am

You know, this website operates with SMF as a stand alone. Although it is at times inconvenient to log in twice, thanks to cookies etc. it almost seems seamless. I know that having a single login is convenient, but if you really really love SMF you might consider using it as a standalone.
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Re: SMF bridge issue

Postby Jenny » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:41 am

Well Lobos then make yourself clear.

You state you don't care about Joomla! but are only interested because of the userbase.  Your statement then:

lobos wrote:
I only care about the Joomla! community.


If you don't care about Joomla! then you don't care about the Joomla! community. Your previous statement that you and most developers only care about the userbase is a perfectly reasonable statement.  It is honest. The userbase is what you care about it. There is no community involved and that is fine. 

No vilification, you aren't a devil.  It is what it is.

Edit: put in missing "]" so that the quote was actually quoted. :)
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RE: SMF Bridge

Postby Danayel » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:16 am

@Athy

I fear statements like the above may not be uncommon


May not be uncommon = may be common, they are opposites after all.  :P

The rest of your paragraph is yes supportive, but it could also be taken as appeasement to avoid and protect against people taking offense. which incidentally, is exactly how you used it.

But there are enough, that seem to have an attitude bordering on flippant, that I am loathe to propose proprietary loopholes.


If you do truly believe that flippant people are a significant minority, then there should be no problem releasing the secrets that would solve this problem -for the community-

It is not that folks wish to create proprietary software that bothers me. I understand the reasoning behind it, and the money that some can make. Also, as my statements above demonstrate, I am not implying that there a majority, or just who is and is not demonstrating certain attitudes.


Then why won't you enlighten us with the secrets to non gpl/gpl harmony. This is what the community is crying out for, an end to this situation.  If you have no problems with Prop. software and truly feel that people with the attitude you find offensive are in a minority, why are you holding back?

Your words and actions are not in sync here.  ???

We have major joomla extensions and bridges to other -open source- applications at risk and you won't tell us how to solve to problem because why?
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re: SMF bridge issue

Postby Asphyx » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:25 pm

I understand why people took what Lobos said to be a bit insulting...
Maybe it was a bad choice of words...Words have different meanings to different people which is why we are in this mess in the first place...different people have different meaning for the words in the GPL license as well...

I would like to interject that what motivation someone has in trying to comply is irrelevant to me...
yes there are a few (I think very few) P3PDs who are really only interested in exploiting the vast Joomla Userbase (aka Market) because it provides  a reasonable marketshare for them to sell goods to. Which if you ask me is why it is dumb for the ones who threaten to go someplace else to make those threats. Your literally abandoning a pretty big market and the alternative markets that they could move to are smaller than the Joomla market they will be leaving...you can't solve the problems of fewer sales due to Commercial GPL model by moving to a market with even fewer potential clients or to a market that doesn't protect you any better from the GPL than you are here...

For whatever reasons they decided to develop for Joomla or decide to find some way to ply their trade we should support those who have looked for solutions that didn't require Joomla to:
Make a statement
Change it's license
Bow to threats
rewrite the entire codebase just to suit them.

Lobos has tried to find his own method for compliance including consultation with a Lawyer.
This is what the official statements had hoped to inspire so maybe we shouldn't beat up on someone who is trying to do what everyone wanted...No matter what motivations may have brought them to that decision to do what was suggested...

If you are doing the right thing for the wrong reasons the reasons don't matter to me...the actions do....
But I will say when I read what you wrote lobos it did seem a bit crass and selfish on the surface. I don't think you meant it the way it came out.

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SMF Bridge Issue

Postby tjay » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:12 pm

developers are leaving the community and taking their benefits with them?


Are they? All of them? No one is looking for solutions? Guess you missed Mosset
Talk to me in a year from now, should be interesting

Then why won't you enlighten us with the secrets to non gpl/gpl harmony. This is what the community is crying out for, an end to this situation.   If you have no problems with Prop. software and truly feel that people with the attitude you find offensive are in a minority, why are you holding back?


Even if someone handed the solution to you would you accept it?
The community, at least a growing portion of it is crying out enough is what they are crying, some of us want an end to all the pot stirring. Your part of the problem or part of the solution.
I challenge you again, if you are so RIGHT about this, then make your move. Go to Mambo or Build your own CMS, show us how wrong we all are. Make good on some of the threats you have made on the JDC forum.
As one long standing memeber of the community, I reject your dramatization of the crying out of the community. The Community wants solutions, not funny cartoons and constant digging with not a single ounce of energy spent towards working for a resolution.
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Re: SMF Bridge Issue

Postby Danayel » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:32 am

tjay wrote:Are they? All of them? No one is looking for solutions? Guess you missed Mosset
Talk to me in a year from now, should be interesting


I didn't say all. Please don't put words into my mouth.

Even if someone handed the solution to you would you accept it?
The community, at least a growing portion of it is crying out enough is what they are crying, some of us want an end to all the pot stirring. Your part of the problem or part of the solution.
I challenge you again, if you are so RIGHT about this, then make your move. Go to Mambo or Build your own CMS, show us how wrong we all are. Make good on some of the threats you have made on the JDC forum.
As one long standing memeber of the community, I reject your dramatization of the crying out of the community. The Community wants solutions, not funny cartoons and constant digging with not a single ounce of energy spent towards working for a resolution.


I don't develop proprietary software. Only GPL. And for the record I am also working at porting my stuff over to Mambo and potentially other CMS's as well as Joomla.  So I have already accepted my solution and I am making my move.

Just because it's not advertised doesn't mean it isn't happening.  ;)

[mod note: removed off topic, "user attempt at moderating"]

Besides, the feedback I have received about my comics has been overwhelmingly supportive.  :pop 
People do need to stop taking things so seriously and aggressively. Case in point is this post.

If the community is not crying out for a solution as you suggest then why do we have three separate forums full of posts asking for solutions.  ??? 

Back on topic -

If there is a solution can we please be presented with it. At least to get all our options on the table.

EDIT: added the quote from the new rules and the final back on topic. (removed nothing)
Last edited by brad on Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SMF bridge issue

Postby aoirthoir » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:35 am

Then why won't you enlighten us with the secrets to non gpl/gpl harmony. This is what the community is crying out for, an end to this situation.  If you have no problems with Prop. software and truly feel that people with the attitude you find offensive are in a minority, why are you holding back?


There are several reasons I have not 'enlightened' you. First among them are the hints of impoliteness regarding this entire issue, by at least a few. The persons that have developed the product you use, have done so at great cost of time and expense with no renumeration. When this issue came up very quickly accusations began to fly. Even  demands have been made. 

Most recently it has been shown that the FSF does not believe that a GPL+LGPL+PROP solution works. I had thought as much myself, and recently posted this. From here come statements that Joomla! is WRONG in following this interpretation. As if it has no rights to do so. However in all of this, the interesting thing is that the conversations between SMF and FSF did in fact detail exactly how such a thing could be accomplished. The method mentioned offers a clear advantage to the FOSS developer and thus require work on the part of those that wish not to be compliant.

If persons are unwilling to read the solution directly from the FSF's own FAQ's and Emails, why are they any more interested in it from me keyboard?

Attitude is everything. Mannerly conduct, long forgotten by some, and appreciation to the team that exhausts themselves developing this product, would have gone a long way towards inclining me to proffer suggestions. Instead, my time has been spent examining statements that are often just patently untrue. So I held and continue to hold my tongue in this regard.
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Re: SMF bridge issue

Postby brad » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:49 am

Danayel wrote:I also suggest you read the new rules on personal attacks lest you find yourself banned from the forums.


Do not attempt to moderate other users. It only inflames things more. Follow the rules, and use the report to moderator link instead.

I'm going to remove parts of your post.
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Re: SMF bridge issue

Postby tjay » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:50 am

Just an interesting thing to consider. There are over 1200 posts a day made to this forum. I think that would sort of speak to the broad community interest.
How many of that number do you suppose are posts on this subject for "crying" out loud
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Re: SMF bridge issue

Postby Danayel » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:03 am

aoirthoir wrote:There are several reasons I have not 'enlightened' you. First among them are the hints of impoliteness regarding this entire issue, by at least a few. The persons that have developed the product you use, have done so at great cost of time and expense with no renumeration.


The impoliteness I can understand but does this mean you are admitting to preventing a solution out of spite of those being impolite? I certainly hope not.

As for renumeration, this was covered in response to MMMedias remarks about using people. The team recieve a lot of benefits for their work, and they do it for those benefits as opposed to doing it for money. It may be the opportunity to speak at Linux World, it may be the opportunity to travel, the prestige, the extra job offers (which in turn=money) the warm fuzzy feeling of contributing. Or many more. They are all remunerated in different ways according to what it is they are after.

People only do things that benefit them ('benefit' is up to your own personal psyche to determine - some people feel like they are 'benefiting' by being an abusive relationship for example, while others would be out the door on day one).

So please don't try to martyr the team as your reason for not helping.


When this issue came up very quickly accusations began to fly. Even  demands have been made.


True, to be honest the whole situation should have been handled a lot better from both sides. The J! team has made plenty of their own demands either overtly or implied.  Actions by 'rogue' members on both sides damaged the position of their team and not the other as they mistakenly thought it would.

Most recently it has been shown that the FSF does not believe that a GPL+LGPL+PROP solution works. I had thought as much myself, and recently posted this. From here come statements that Joomla! is WRONG in following this interpretation. As if it has no rights to do so. However in all of this, the interesting thing is that the conversations between SMF and FSF did in fact detail exactly how such a thing could be accomplished. The method mentioned offers a clear advantage to the FOSS developer and thus require work on the part of those that wish not to be compliant.


People want to be compliant. No one consciously and willingly wants to act illegally in this situation. However all sides think they are doing what is the 'correct' thing to do, or the correct interpretation to make. No one wants to see Joomla burn as a preference over it succeeding and working for all.

Even though many people (even myself) have expressed feelings along those lines, they were mainly a gut reaction to feeling of betrayal we all felt. Like when a beloved partner cheats on you or reveals a terrible secret. The first reaction for most people is anger and resentment, when really they just want the problem to go away and things to go back to how they were.

Which we both know isn't going to happen. The problem now is what does -compliance- mean.

In the thread Erick startedit has finally been concluded that the 'community' wants non gpl extensions if they can keep them and have J! remain GPL compliant and secure.

Both sides do want this to end before any more damage is done.

[quote="tjay"]Your part of the problem or part of the solution. [/quote]

If you have a solution and don't share it, where does that place you on tjay's scale?

If persons are unwilling to read the solution directly from the FSF's own FAQ's and Emails, why are they any more interested in it from me keyboard?


I am a little thick at times so yes, please spell it out for me like I am an idiot.  :)

Attitude is everything. Mannerly conduct, long forgotten by some, and appreciation to the team that exhausts themselves developing this product, would have gone a long way towards inclining me to proffer suggestions. Instead, my time has been spent examining statements that are often just patently untrue. So I held and continue to hold my tongue in this regard.

We love the work the J! team does Why do you think people are so up in arms? However, appreciating their work, does not mean giving them right of way to do as they please and giving up everything of our own to their whims.

Yes some people *cough*Lobos*cough* don't agree with me on that. However, that isn't the majority by any measure and really that's ok for people to think that. I am sure you don't think every piece of code on the planet is a top of the line program, but I bet the creators of those code pieces think that they are the best thing since sliced bread.

Lobos has developed his own frameworks, so obviously he is going to favor his work over someone else's. :p  In the same way the J! team favor their own work over other CMS's and think it's better.

Again as above, are you withholding now for personal reasons? A grudge it appears against those who slighted Joomla. If so, isn't holding back out of -spite- making you as bad as the people you are spiteing?  ???
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Re: SMF bridge issue

Postby brad » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:13 am

This thread is about the SMF bridge. Please keep to the topic.
I'm beginning to wonder already if opening up these few forums was a bad idea....
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Re: SMF bridge issue

Postby technopuzzle » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:07 am

MOD NOTE: Removed several off-topic posts This thread is for the discussion of issues, comments, suggestions, ideas, etc. that relate to the SMF Bridge issue. It is not for the discussion of selfless / selfish acts.
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Re: SMF bridge issue

Postby Danayel » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:25 am

Thanks Mods. Sorry for the hassle.

Here is a chance for J to retain SMF for a while at least.

http://www.simplemachines.org/community ... 6#p1177226

[quote="Orstio"]OK, so we're faced with a claim that we have a grace period of six months.  I think that needs to be substantiated.

In order to do that, I suggest the Joomla team draw up a statement of exception to the GPL for the SMF bridge for the stated period of six calendar months.  This statement should be electronically signed by each and every Joomla copyright holder.  I am certain that if each copyright holder was to send an email of agreement of the statement to info at simplemachines, with some information so we can identify each of them individually to ensure

1) no copyright holders have been excluded,
2) no copyright holders find objection,
3) all copyright holders are in unanimous agreement,
4) the verification of the identity of each and every copyright holder,

then we might be able to proceed for the indicated period of six calendar months following legal advice on the validity of the exception.

I would strongly suggest seeking legal counsel before and during the preparation of such a statement.[/quote]
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Re: SMF bridge issue

Postby brad » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:34 am

*sigh* they just don't get it. It's not possible to contact all copyright holders. Perhaps if they actually got in touch with the Joomla Core Team we might be able to explain things to them.
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Re: SMF bridge issue

Postby brad » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:41 am

I have posted on their site.. there is no way they can now miss the invitation for SMF to initiate a discussion with the Joomla core team.. something they are yet to do.
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Re: SMF bridge issue

Postby Jenny » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:44 am

Danayel wrote:Thanks Mods. Sorry for the hassle.

Here is a chance for J to retain SMF for a while at least.



It would seem that the post after that negates the post you quoted anyways Danayel.  http://www.simplemachines.org/community ... 3#p1177253

Why spend the time and energy working with someone that doesn't want to work with you anyways.  There are better things to do like move forward.  There are other forums, and other solutions.  It seems to me that it won't be long before SMF doesn't matter much because there are most likely developers working right now on conversion scripts to other forums that can port everyone over. 
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Re: SMF bridge issue

Postby zigzag » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:33 am

I have posted on their site.. there is no way they can now miss the invitation for SMF to initiate a discussion with the Joomla core team.. something they are yet to do.


Hmmm.... may I tentatively suggest something, why not just contact the SMF team directly :-*
It seems to me that there are an awful lot of users of Joomla that are reliant on the SMF bridge component and are left dangling over this, I'm positive that something permanent can be resolved that suits both SMF, Joomla and the FSF.

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Re: SMF bridge issue

Postby brad » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:39 am

I have been in touch with one of their team (not Orstio) and have provided them with a way to get in touch with us to discuss this issue... we can only wait now.
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