Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

*IF* you want to share your opinion on the GPL issue, this is the place for you.
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Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by feldon27 » Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:11 pm

From the topic Some Common Questions from Developers,
If I write a GNU GPL bridge to a non-GNU GPL application, will that meet the Joomla! License requirements?

This will depend on how it is written. You will probably need to consult a lawyer with experience in this area to help you to make this determination.
Are there any guidelines at this point on how to write a Bridge that will not stray into this issue? I know that vBulletin now suggests registering and creating users and threads be done via API and that any application can use the API with no restrictions beyond the vBulletin license agreement.

I guess the question is, will someone have to deconstruct how a user is created in Joomla and then do this manually by poking the MySQL database?

 
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re: Topic: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by lobos » Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:30 pm

Are there any guidelines at this point on how to write a Bridge that will not stray into this issue?
Yes.

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,186705.0.html

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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by feldon27 » Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:33 pm

SMF already gave up despite extensive communications with the FSF and Joomla.

Joomla (or any CMS) cannot survive without being able to LINK to other software.

I think some people are really misinterpreting the GPL and going down an unsustainable road. Joomla could end up the best damn CMS that nobody can use because the GPL is being turned into a straightjacket.

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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by AmyStephen » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:57 pm

feldon27 wrote: SMF already gave up despite extensive communications with the FSF and Joomla.
No, there were *not* extensive discussions with Joomla! -or- the FSF. The facts are:

The last discussion between Orstio/SMF and Johan/Joomla! was on June 17. At that time both Orstio and Johan believed there was a working plan to build the bridge. Johan offered to have the plan reviewed by the SFLC to be "100% certain."

Orstio had been PMing me about the plans and things were positive.

On June 30, Orstio posted in Joomla! that the installation software for the bridge was not available. There was no Joomla! consultation or notification on this that I know of. When I heard of this, I was shocked. To this day, I have no idea what happened between June 17 and June 30.

On July 3, Kindred was already recommending Mambo. In the remaining thread I just linked to you can see the conversation about the bridge.

I asked why the plans weren't used that looked promising. Performance concerns were raised. The installer issue was raised - and it was mentioned that had not been discussed by anyone - the API was raised as a concern.

I recommended Orstio return to Joomla! forums and discussnew issues and concerns and find a solution. To my knowledge, that never happened.

The "extensive" discussions with FSF were not that at all. The email conversation is in the announcement. Read it. Never was Joomla! mentioned. Never was SMF mentioned. A generic discussion about non-GPL and GPL software took place and the FSF indicated a bridge created a combined work and the non-GPL compliant software would be a problem.

Given FSF's statement, SMF announced the Joomla! SMF bridge was illegal. SMF also provides bridges to other GPL software, including XOOPS, E107 and Mambo. FSF's opinion is as relevant for those bridges as it is for Joomla!'s.

Joomla! v 1.0.13 was announced July 21; on July 24, SMF announced they would not support v 1.0.13. As a result of SMF's decision, Joomla!/SMF users must choose to live with vulnerable websites since they cannot upgrade to the security release or they are forced to use a website they did not freely choice.

Hopefully, SMF will recognize the position they have put end users in and at least provide users with time needed to make other plans of their own free choosing. No one is stopping SMF from doing so.

I would very much like to see Orstio return and continue discussions on the bridge. There is no reason that a solution cannot be found.

Amy

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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by Trijnie » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:04 pm

Hello,

The reason for Orstio to discontinue the bridge is the correspondence between Simple Machines and FSF:

http://www.simplemachines.org/community ... pic=184557

(edit: just read it and read it twice or three times if you have to. )

Kind regards,
Last edited by Trijnie on Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by AmyStephen » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:34 pm

Trijnie wrote: Hello,

The reason for Orstio to discontinue the bridge is the correspondence between Simple Machines and FSF:

http://www.simplemachines.org/community ... pic=184557

(edit: just read it and read it twice or three times if you have to. )

Kind regards,
Trijnie -

Are you asking me how many times I read it?  ??? I've read it a dozen times, maybe more. I have been very involved in this since mid-June.

What do you think about SMF announcing they will not support the v 1.0.13 security release only a few days after Joomla! released it? Instead, SMF named Mambo as a CMS that could be used, instead.

I know you value freedom - you frequently discuss how you want freedom to choose and you want to offer your clients freedom to choose, as well. I value freedom, very, very much, too.

Joomla!/SMF end users are unnecessarily forced to live with vulnerable software -or- use a CMS they did not choose. And, there is no reason to restrict their freedom.

Would you *please* help me encourage SMF to provide Joomla!/SMF users with time needed to freely choose an option that works best for them? They would very much appreciate our help to restore their freedoms.

Amy :)

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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by Trijnie » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:59 pm

Hi Amy,

You mis-interpreted my post. It was not focussed on you. I just noticed that people think "Ah GPL, well the other products are gpl  too, so same rules huh?" . Which is not the case because every project chooses how to enforce their rules theirselves.

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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by brad » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:14 am

Enforce??

I think you need to choose your words carefully. Any project that uses the GPL is bound by the same license. If you are not happy with the recent statements on the GPL by Joomla, after extensive legal advice, as you have shown, they are other options to you, however, turning up after months (years) of inactivity to 'flog the dead horse' is not helpful to anyone.

If you want to work towards a solution, be sure to make that clear in your posts. BTW I am able to read Dutch as well.
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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by aoirthoir » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:58 am

Joomla (or any CMS) cannot survive without being able to LINK to other software.
Well, actually Joomla is able to link to other software. As I've mentioned and you've ignored, there is a wealth of GPL and GPL compatible software out there that can interface to Joomla! and that Joomla! can interface with. Not only that GPL licensed programs can share Joomla!'s code and Joomla! can share their's.

Is gambling forbidden on these forums? Because I keep seeing folks claim over and over Joomla! is going to die. I'd be willing to put money in escrow if others' are likewise willing. We'll set a reasonable time period, and then, I'd be happy to collect when Joomla! hasn't scampered away.

Are any of these folks that say that willing to put their money where their claims are? How about a cool grand? two?

(Returning to professionalism mode.)
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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by marlar » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:39 am

AmyStephen wrote: The "extensive" discussions with FSF were not that at all. The email conversation is in the announcement. Read it. Never was Joomla! mentioned. Never was SMF mentioned. A generic discussion about non-GPL and GPL software took place and the FSF indicated a bridge created a combined work and the non-GPL compliant software would be a problem.
.... Which obviously made SMF take the safe path and withdraw their bridge.
Given FSF's statement, SMF announced the Joomla! SMF bridge was illegal. SMF also provides bridges to other GPL software, including XOOPS, E107 and Mambo. FSF's opinion is as relevant for those bridges as it is for Joomla!'s.
Yes, their opinion. But opinion alone is nothing. Only when combined with the copyright holders' recurrent talking about lawsuits and courts will the situation feel threating.

I don't know for XOOPS and E107, but while it is true that Mambo is GPL too, the copyright holder has openly stated that they see no problems with non-GPL extensions for Mambo. This clearly makes a huge difference to SMF or any other involved in a non-GPL extension or bridge.
Hopefully, SMF will recognize the position they have put end users in and at least provide users with time needed to make other plans of their own free choosing. No one is stopping SMF from doing so.
Pardon me, but please don't pass the buck. SMF didn't start the fire.
I would very much like to see Orstio return and continue discussions on the bridge. There is no reason that a solution cannot be found.
Yes, there is. FSF's opinion combined with OSM/Joomla's hard-core GPL interpretation.
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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by hgr » Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:52 am

AmyStephen wrote: Hopefully, SMF will recognize the position they have put end users in
But then again who is really concerned about the end users these days  ;)

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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by Trijnie » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:58 am

Hi Brad  :),
brad wrote: I think you need to choose your words carefully. Any project that uses the GPL is bound by the same license.
Every project that uses the GNU GPL license, has it's own right (and responsibility) to interpret and enforce it. Joomla!
decided to change what was endorsed, wich is fine. However, Joomla! also has to take the responsibility for this, and
that includes not to claim that the responsibility lies with all the other CMPTs that do not comply with Joomla!s rules.
brad wrote: If you are not happy with the recent statements on the GPL by Joomla, after extensive legal advice, as you have shown,
they are other options to you, however, turning up after months (years) of inactivity to 'flog the dead horse' is not
helpful to anyone.
Not posting on the forum for months does not mean I don't have any rights. I'm not the only one affected by this.
I have clients who still use Joomla! but who now have a cms that is connected to add ons from vendors that are all
of a sudden illegal. Since I'm the one who told them "Use Joomla!, it's the awnser to your question/problem/etc., and
I'm also responsible for telling them "Joomla! has the option to, we just have to install this or that add on, it puts
me as a business person in a strange position.
brad wrote: If you want to work towards a solution, be sure to make that clear in your posts. BTW I am able to read Dutch as well.
Unfortunately I have seen a lot of solutions already, but in order for them to be a solution, Joomla! would have to agree.

I know you read Dutch, and can tell you that in whatever language I write, I will take full responsibility for my statements.

Kind regards,

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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by Asphyx » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:42 pm

Are there any guidelines at this point on how to write a Bridge that will not stray into this issue?
Yes...
Create a GPL Extention that does not connect code but connects data instead....

Simple isn't it?

You want to bridge Joomla with SMF?

Write a component that tells Joomla how to read the SMF database without connecting to SMF code to operate.
the installer can read SMF configs and set all the parameters for you.

The component will come with a few items in the package...

Login module that reads users from the SMF database.
Registration module that writes new users to the SMF database.
Module that can read and write posts to the SMF database.
Module that can read calendar data from the SMF database.

None of them call to any file that is part of the SMF release...

Totally compliant because you are not combining code you are simply sharing a dataset!

The issue with SMF bridge has everything to do with the fact they want to use their own limited license not the fact that it is impossible to bridge with Joomla without using some of it's code...BEcause you Can bridge Joomla to SMF without combining the two code bases!
And if they suggest you can't then they are not as smart as they think they are!

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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by Rogue4ngel » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:29 pm

but while it is true that Mambo is GPL too, the copyright holder has openly stated that they see no problems with non-GPL extensions for Mambo
Is there is a sole Copyright holder for Mambo? If not, this statement wouldn't be true.
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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by Rogue4ngel » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:38 pm

I have clients who still use Joomla! but who now have a cms that is connected to add ons from vendors that are all
of a sudden illegal. Since I'm the one who told them "Use Joomla!, it's the awnser to your question/problem/etc., and
I'm also responsible for telling them "Joomla! has the option to, we just have to install this or that add on, it puts
me as a business person in a strange position.
Actually, the responsibility is for the vendor that supplied the software to find out from either legal council or perhaps the FSF to see if their particular code is compatible with the GPL license, or connects in a way that does not violate it.  If they are in violation, it is their choice whether or not they wish to change that to be compliant.
Unfortunately I have seen a lot of solutions already, but in order for them to be a solution, Joomla! would have to agree.
Joomla doesn't have to agree.  It would be the FSF or legal council of that particular vendor that would have to say if their particular code does or does not violate the GPL license.  If they say it's ok, it doesn't matter what Joomla thinks as long as the vendor is compliant to the GPL license.
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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by marlar » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:57 pm

Rogue4ngel wrote:
but while it is true that Mambo is GPL too, the copyright holder has openly stated that they see no problems with non-GPL extensions for Mambo
Is there is a sole Copyright holder for Mambo? If not, this statement wouldn't be true.
Yes, Mambo Foundation is the sole copyright holder:

http://mambo-foundation.org/content/view/12/8/
2. Who owns the copyright to Mambo?

The copyright to Mambo is held by the Mambo Foundation, Inc, a non profit corporation organized under the laws of Australia and run by the membership.
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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by Asphyx » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:07 pm

2. Who owns the copyright to Mambo?

The copyright to Mambo is held by the Mambo Foundation, Inc, a non profit corporation organized under the laws of Australia and run by the membership.
Ahh Ha!
believing Faqs again i see...

Here is what is missing in the Faq...

the Foundation HOLDS the Copyright, But they are not the OWNERS of the Copyright!
Everyone who contributed signed rights to copyright the work under the GPL!
Mambo saying you can treat GPL as LGPL could be in violation of those copyright contracts...OWNERS could sue someone from using their GPL code in proprietary work!

OSM HOLDS the copyright to Joomla...
But everyone who contributed code to Joomla is the OWNER of Copyright to their contribution!
And in some cases there are Libraries that have been used only because they were allowed to be used in GPL programs...
They never gave permission to be used in Proprietary...
Those people can sue...

So who HOLDS the copyright doesn't matter...Who OWNS the copyright is the key. And each snippet that Mambo uses is still copyright to the person who created it and the license they allowed Mambo to use it under.

So how many have signed their code OVER to the foundation under the LGPL?

(you want to take a poll on this ask all the Joomla Developers most if not all are major contributors to Mambo and code it uses)

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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by AmyStephen » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:32 pm

Trijnie wrote:
brad wrote: I think you need to choose your words carefully. Any project that uses the GPL is bound by the same license.
Every project that uses the GNU GPL license, has it's own right (and responsibility) to interpret and enforce it. Joomla!
decided to change what was endorsed, wich is fine. However, Joomla! also has to take the responsibility for this, and
that includes not to claim that the responsibility lies with all the other CMPTs that do not comply with Joomla!s rules.
Trijnie -

I used to think that, too, but lately, I am starting to see that doesn't make any sense. Here's how I see it - clearly, I am not an expert!

A group of copyright holders decide to license their work. They *could* create their own license but they would have to enforce the license themselves. Or, they could use a license that is already available that meets their project needs.

The GPL v 2 is a specific license. No matter who uses the license, it has the exact same terms. The Free Software Foundation (FSF) are the ones who provide the GPL. The benefit to utilizing the GPL, as opposed to coming up with your own licensing, is that the FSF provides services to those who use the GPL, including support for compliance to the license.
In order to stay effective, a license must be enforced. The FSF holds the copyrights for many popular free software programs, such as GCC and glibc, and we enforce those licenses. We investigate all reports we receive about free software license violations, and negotiate with violators to bring them into full compliance. Learn more about our compliance work.
Note the bolded text from above: In order to stay effective, a license must be enforced. If copyright holders do not observe the license guidelines and posts messages, or simply tolerates infractions to the GPL, I think it becomes very unclear what the license really means. Ambiguity exists. In such a case, if the copyright holders were to go to the FSF for help with the kind of compliance they do want, I am guessing it would become difficult for the FSF to sort through the copyright holder's "interpretation" of the GPL and enforce those terms.

And, what if those interpretations are not something the FSF agrees with? Certainly, they are not required to enforce a license they did not create! Essentially, "project-specific interpretations" create a unique and new license. And, as such, it could certainly become the copyright holder's responsibility for enforcement. The burden of explaining in a court the "effective license" might be a challenge, I think.

In light of that, I believe SMF handled the question about whether or not extensions are derivate in a smart way - they went to the FSF - the ones who provide and enforce the GPL and they asked. The FSF indicated the method described in the email correspondence to bridge non-GPL compliant software with a GPL environment violated the terms of the GPL. (The acceptable way to bridge was also mentioned by the FSF.) SMF uses that method that FSF indicated was a violation for each of their bridges into GPL software, including Mambo, XOOPS, E107 and Joomla!.

According to the FSF's opinion, each bridge is a violation of the GPL. Now, Trijnie, we get into the area of being careful with wording. It is indeed true, as you say, that copyright holders may choose to seek compliance or they may choose to ignore violations of the license. But, those responses do not change the fact that it is, indeed, a violation of the GPL.

Back to the FSF's statement: "In order to stay effective, a license must be enforced." I think I am starting to see what that means.

Those who like to dismiss this recognition to religious zealotry need to remember - this is not a religion, it is a license. It is a legal matter. Understanding compliance with a license is important is not a declaration of faith. It's logic. This is not to suggest that the GPL is the best license around. I use FAR more proprietary software than free software. I do not feel unpure or wrong or bad for doing so. Joomla! uses the GPL which has terms provided by the FSF - that is a fact, not a faith.

With respect,
Amy :)

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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by AmyStephen » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:44 pm

hgr wrote:
AmyStephen wrote: Hopefully, SMF will recognize the position they have put end users in
But then again who is really concerned about the end users these days  ;)
I am! It may sound silly, I guess, but the truth is, some of us actually are here to help end users.

Amy :)

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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by aoirthoir » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:46 pm

AmyStephen,

Actually this is exactly why commercial entities defend their property so vigorously. Whether it is their trademarks, copyrights, or other creative works and even physical property, if violations of their terms are allowed to go for too long, then they can lose those rights. While we might think they are being just bleepin bleep bleeps about it, really, doing so insures that their works do not enter the public domain.
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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by RobS » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:59 pm

Hi guys,

Can we please keep this thread on topic.  A question was asked about a vBulletin Joomla! bridge, not about everything under the sun related to bridges and SMF.  As for the original question, it is possible but it must be done carefully.
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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by JoeJoomla » Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:43 pm

Just for a simple clarification for those that find this dizzying; according to the FSF any non GPL product can not be bridged to a GPL product even by GPL bridge.

Asphyx points out that it is HOW the GPL bridge is made that is the solution (in the case of SMF).

Is that all it is at this point?
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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by XHTMLSuite » Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:53 pm

RobS wrote:As for the original question, it is possible but it must be done carefully.
@RobS
While I appreciate you taking this thread back to topic and know the topic is simply "Joomla bridge be possible?" and not "Joomla bridge be possible? And if how", I'd still like to see a more descriptive answer instead of "it must be done carefully".

Especially in consideration of the last post from JoeJoomla where he states that
JoeJoomla wrote:according to the FSF any non GPL product can not be bridged to a GPL product even by GPL bridge
Please let me know if you want me to open another thread for this.

Thank you!
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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by RobS » Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:53 pm

JoeJoomla wrote: Just for a simple clarification for those that find this dizzying; according to the FSF any non GPL product can not be bridged to a GPL product even by GPL bridge.

Asphyx points out that it is HOW the GPL bridge is made that is the solution (in the case of SMF).

Is that all it is at this point?
@Joe,

Yes, it really comes down to how the bridge actually works and is constructed.
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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by lobos » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:04 pm

Just for a simple clarification for those that find this dizzying; according to the FSF any non GPL product can not be bridged to a GPL product even by GPL bridge.
Well they should read the GPL license then, because if they did they would understand that it is indeed possible to do this via the following paragraph of the GPL:

If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them as separate works.

For some reason many are ignoring this paragraph, but in my opinion this clause was created for the sole purpose of bridging non-gpl IP with GPL IP. FSF are disingenuous to think otherwise as you cannot pick and choose the conditions of the GPL - follow it all, or not at all.

In fact if that paragraph did not exist I would have shut my mouth a long time ago, but it does exist and it gives me a GPL COMPLIANT way to deploy NON-GPL IP with GPL IP. I am very happy about this :D

-Lobos
Last edited by lobos on Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by RobS » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:25 pm

XHTMLSuite wrote:
RobS wrote:As for the original question, it is possible but it must be done carefully.
@RobS
While I appreciate you taking this thread back to topic and know the topic is simply "Joomla bridge be possible?" and not "Joomla bridge be possible? And if how", I'd still like to see a more descriptive answer instead of "it must be done carefully".

Especially in consideration of the last post from JoeJoomla where he states that
JoeJoomla wrote:according to the FSF any non GPL product can not be bridged to a GPL product even by GPL bridge
Please let me know if you want me to open another thread for this.

Thank you!
@Bernhard

I can definitely understand the desire to know "how" it can work.  To give you an idea of how we came to this point, Louis and I have been at OSCON for the last few days and conveniently Brett Smith, the Licensing Compliance Engineer at the Free Software Foundation, was also there.  We asked if he could explain the rationale behind the e-mails that were exchanged and he was quite happy to sit down with us the next day and discuss the issues over lunch.  The next day, we met Brett for lunch and he was extremely helpful and shared a lot of ideas, problems, possible solutions, and guidance during our conversation.  Eventually, we got into the particular technical aspects of how the SMF bridge works, the execution flow, the API calls, all of it.  The way the bridge works has a substantial affect on the licensing implications of the bridge.

After a very long discussion and many long moments of frustration, we believe we have come to a solution that will work for SMF as well as other bridges.  I intend to go into more detail about how it works but I need to confirm a few things first.  I have been reviewing the SMF/Mambo bridge code and evaluating if our understanding of the bridge is correct and if the few issues that were left could be fixed as well.  I hope to have more information on this soon but I don't want to jump the gun and say something incorrect.  So, please be patient, we are working on it. :)
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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by XHTMLSuite » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:50 pm

RobS wrote:After a very long discussion and many long moments of frustration, we believe we have come to a solution that will work for SMF as well as other bridges.
Thank you for your answer, it is appreciated!

Well, this indeed sounds like light at the end of the tunnel (when it until now was more the tunnel at the end of the light, you may forgive me the pun ;)).

One more thing I'd like to know though - if you can tell at this state of your evaluation: does this solution only apply to bridges or to CMPs in general?

Thanks again!
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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by RobS » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:57 pm

XHTMLSuite wrote: One more thing I'd like to know though - if you can tell at this state of your evaluation: does this solution only apply to bridges or to CMPs in general?
This would probably only make sense within the context of bridges and even still, it will only apply in some situations. 
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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by XHTMLSuite » Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:06 pm

RobS wrote:
XHTMLSuite wrote: One more thing I'd like to know though - if you can tell at this state of your evaluation: does this solution only apply to bridges or to CMPs in general?
This would probably only make sense within the context of bridges and even still, it will only apply in some situations. 
Ok, seems not to be the light at the tunnel I hoped for then, anyway thank you for answer.
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Re: Will a vBulletin <-> Joomla bridge be possible?

Post by feldon27 » Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:29 pm

This thread just reiterates that Joomla doesn't WANT solutions. They don't WANT to interpret the GPL in a sane, reasonable way.

The open hostility that SMF and others have faced would be enough for anyone to say "You guys really want to cut us off at the knees, fine, we'll just go to the community and see if THEY can put pressure on Joomla to be reasonable" and that's what I think vendors have every right to do.

And once again, Amy is showing some denial about the efforts of SMF. What you guys have done is cause commercial developers to literally circle the wagons and create a trade organization to make sure THEIR rights are maintained. They would not have done this if Joomla were being reasonable.

 

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