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Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:32 am
by nhudell
@ jinx

Thank you so much for your brilliant blog post! (I blogged your blog)

It is great to see such amazing strides being made behind the scenes. It also let the users know that there is work we can do to help with the development, rather than simply posting new threads whining about release dates.

I look forward to covering your future posts, more technical the better!

...now I feel like Hungarian food!!

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:53 am
by Chris
AmyStephen wrote: You are probably right. I was also waiting and waiting and then I realized. Hey! There is no reason for me to wait. And, I'm not. I do resync the production sites from time to time - I've had to back out a change or two, but, if I can help it - and I think I can - I will not go back to the 1.0.x series because v 1.5 is so very sweet. I don't need every gadget under the sun and am impressed what can be built just with the core. There are a few extensions I used, but after last summer's security problems with third party extensions, I have learned to be more sensible with my choices, anyway.

Joomla! v 1.5 RC 3 is in very good shape. It really is.

Thanks for your community news service - that rocks. Be careful, though. Once you show your willingness to contribute to the community, you might become very popular and involved.  ;)

Amy :)
I think they are waiting for Mum to say, boys and girls, it is OK to go outside now and play.
She also pointed out that everything was not ready yet and that they should improvise.
She said it was a Beta and not a Final.
And some of those boys and girls will come screaming inside to Mum when something is not the way they thought it would be.
Mum thought that the boys and girls where already grown up
But maybe she was wrong here and gave them a bit more credit than they deserved.

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:49 am
by achim71
I'll go back to 1.0.x now. My biggest prob are those api changes whom can still ocure until 1.5 stable. It would be great if those changes would be visible to the user in a changelog-style, at least for the rc releases.

To me stable means the api does not change

achim~

@nhudell

Brilliant idea that blog site hope you manage to keep on track in the future.

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:22 am
by garyamort
Chris wrote: Mum thought that the boys and girls where already grown up
But maybe she was wrong here and gave them a bit more credit than they deserved.
Joomla 1.0.x is really THAT good, so they don't understand that non-programmers, people who don't even know what PHP is, let alone how to check their error logs, can not only use Joomla - they can design some really outstanding sites just using Joomla and 3rd party components.

I don't think the solution is to insult the people who use Joomla and are not PHP programmers.

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:02 pm
by AmyStephen
Garyamort - that is not at all what was said!  :P  You read a lot into that, my friend!  You are right that not all extensions are there that will be there (and emerging every day.) But, it does not take knowing how to code in php to use Joomla! v 1.5.  ;)

@achim - the changes in v 1.5 make it too volatile for your needs. You are right to go with v 1.0.x. Best wishes on your project!

It's all good, we have choices and people in the community will help us, either way.
Amy :)

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:18 pm
by garyamort
AmyStephen wrote: Garyamort - that is not at all what was said!  :P  You read a lot into that, my friend!
I dunno, when someone tells someone else that their "not gown ups" I kind of read that as an insult.  If it wasn't meant as an insult, I apologise.  :o
You are right that not all extensions are there that will be there (and emerging every day.) But, it does not take knowing how to code in php to use Joomla! v 1.5.  ;)
Ahh, and now I'm the one not being clear.  :'(

I'm not talking about needing to know how to program to use Joomla 1.5, I'm talking about certain...hmmm....how to describe it without sounding condescending to non programmers..... general troubleshooting skills required to use non-production software.

Things like, for example:
Knowing that when you get a blank web page, it means there was an error in the PHP code and you have to check the PHP error logfiles on your host(wherever they are) to retrieve the errors - not to neccessarily fix the code yourself, but to be able to file bug a report so the devs can figure out what it is you did that resulted in the error.

Knowing WHERE those files are located.

With Joomla, all you need to do is plug in a few pieces of info that most providers have these days in a cheat sheet, and your off on your way(both 1.0.x and 1.5).  It really is that simple. 

I didn't quite believe there were people with no programming knowledge whatsoever not only running Joomla sites, but installing and setting them up from scratch! That was hammered home  at Joomla Day East.  When I'd tell people the address for the NYC Joomla email list(go to http://www.nyphp.org and sign up to the Joomla email list).  A question I'd get is PHP?  What's that?

Joomla is just that good.  These people don't know, and don't care, what language Joomla is written in.  I very much hope they come to the next JUG meeting, as that is precisely one of the viewpoints I want to hear more from.  How components and modules are viewed by the non dev and how they can be geared to make them more easily implemented(and I promise not to call them children.  :P )

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:15 am
by hannul
One thing has not been mentioned should be mentioned. During this confusion of stable/not stable, freezed api/not so freezed, many skilled developers have built live sites with J1.5 (beta1,beta2,RC1,RC2,RC3,various svn versions). RC3 is out as production /stable, so obviously assumption is that it really is that. Ok, many feel that it is not, but that is not my point.

The point is, that skilled developers that could have been partisipating in developement of core, patching bugs, have been in svn-update - fix-the-livesite machine, and when they do this, that takes their extra time. So, because this confusion, many has no time left to do anything but post annoying messages here trying to say that something has gone wrong.

Though I think that I speak for many of us, this obviously could have been only my problem.

Also as totally an other issue, there is a learning curve to adapt insight of J1.5 core, it takes lots of time to start to participate, as it takes lots of time to learn how J1.5 works. But I thing learning J1.5 is time well spent.

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:34 am
by humvee
Please do not allow this thread to degenerate into another he said/she said, your wrong/I'm right...downward spiral.

The original question has been responded to by the Core Developers with the best information currently available. Discuss this by all means but keep it civil and respect other people's opinions whether you happen to agree with them or not.

Andy

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:31 am
by achim71
humvee wrote: Please do not allow this thread to degenerate into another he said/she said, your wrong/I'm right...downward spiral.

The original question has been responded to by the Core Developers with the best information currently available. Discuss this by all means but keep it civil and respect other people's opinions whether you happen to agree with them or not.

Andy
Full ACK

With the developers informations, I managed to get some extra time so will wait for the next rc before going back to 1.0.x.  :pop

You can close that thread if you want, my questions are answered atm.

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:40 am
by humvee
No Problem Achim

If you want to keep further up-to-date consider bookmarking the Developers Google Group which will often tip the nod on significant changes that are or have occurred.
The other place to keep an eye if you are keen to see what is happening are the threads and child forums of the Joomla! Development Forum

hth (a bit)
Andy

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:35 pm
by feldon27
AmyStephen wrote:Seriously, what is everyone waiting for? RC 3 is good to go, folks. Just like any other website you build - get your backup and restore processes fired up and working and you will be fine.
It is really amazing sometimes the varied and conflicting comments coming from high-level Joomla.org people.

Johan suggests that Joomla 1.5 final is not even close and that there are "many months" of RCs expected. The truth is out there!

quiquedcode says "Joomla! 1.5 isn't stable, and it is stated EVERYWHERE that it should not be used for production or live websites."

You are the only one suggesting this "Joomla 1.5 RC3 is ready, go use it" nonsense. And whenever a basic problem like installation or logging in or linking or posting images comes up, the answer is "have you downloaded the SVN?" It is inside-out logic and it doesn't work.

As far as I am concerned, the current version is Joomla 1.5 Beta 5. I think Joomla has a bright future but am I the only one who sees that these are dark times? Migration from 1.0 to 1.5 was an afterthought. SEO was not considered.

I am glad that Johan has realized that 2-4 month beta periods have limited effectiveness since 99% of users download the beta, crash it, and go back to 1.0.13 without posting, leaving a very small testing pool. It takes maturity to realize that it is not only what the vocal users are posting that should keep you up at night but what ISN'T being posted. I would imagine for every 100 downloads of 1.5, 1 is actually using it or testing it.

A beta or RC release every 2-3 weeks will hopefully bring the testers out in droves. Statements like "Have you downloaded the SVN?" or "that problem is probably already fixed in SVN" tells any but the diehard testers to stay away.

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:41 pm
by AmyStephen
feldon27 wrote:
AmyStephen wrote:Seriously, what is everyone waiting for? RC 3 is good to go, folks. Just like any other website you build - get your backup and restore processes fired up and working and you will be fine.
It is really amazing to read some of these absurd things.
Don't be rude, Feldon. I have several sites up and running and those people love it and they work great. If there are things that need to be done and you care about Joomla!, help with your actions. Your complaining only discourages contributors.

Amy

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:23 pm
by humvee
@feldon

Please see my note http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... msg1048035 above.

You like everyone else has the choice as to whether you proceed or not with the latest release. If someone asks a question on these forums then they will get an answer and if the most appropriate answer to begin with is to use the latest Nightly Build (or SVN where appropriate,) then that is what will be stated. Whether an individual then chooses to take that advice and continue with their use of 1.5 it is entirely up to them.
If they choose to continue and have further questions, or the updating does not resolve the issue, then further help is given usually until a resolution is found or it is necessary to refer the matter back to developers due to it being a new issue.
There is only so much time and testing developers can do themselves and real world testing be it on localhost or production sites by many people is far more preferable and indeed beneficial, and after all it is a community project and that is precisely what community is about. Whether you or anyone else chooses to be a part of that is again entirely up to the individual concerned.

Andy

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:33 pm
by AmyStephen
feldon27 wrote:
AmyStephen wrote:Seriously, what is everyone waiting for? RC 3 is good to go, folks. Just like any other website you build - get your backup and restore processes fired up and working and you will be fine.
It is really amazing sometimes the varied and conflicting comments coming from high-level Joomla.org people.
Please, don't change your posts.  :P

For the record, Feldon, I have no badge. I am not on the Core Team. I am not a member of the OSM. I am not even a member of a Working Group. Certainly, I am not a high-level Joomla.org person.

I volunteer my time to help Joomla! so that it can be useful to others.
Amy :)

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:23 am
by hannul
Amy,

Some of us don't have working sites. We don't have working usable version of J1.5. Please send your version to developers. They can then share it with rest of us.

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:42 pm
by AmyStephen
hannul wrote: Amy,

Some of us don't have working sites. We don't have working usable version of J1.5. Please send your version to developers. They can then share it with rest of us.
Hannul -

Is there something I can do to help you get your site up and running? Let's start with a description of what is not working. Then, we can isolate bug reports and get those reported or make adjustments needed to help you be successful!

I have visitors in my home today, but, I'll look for your response and do what I can to help you.

Kind regards,
Amy :)

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:08 pm
by fireman
feldon,

Not that you should care, but I couldn't not agree with you more!  You bring up excellent points concerning what appears to be "double talk" or "conflicting "reports".

I love the product and I love the fact that the Dev's here are "giving up the skin" so to speak, as far as putting in the time and effort to continue providing a world class product.  I think the Dev's get exactly what they want and deserve from their hard work, and that is countless numbers of satisfied users coupled with perennial accolades and awards.  Truly it is these kind of acknowledgments that defines the dev' team.

Unfortunately, there are those out there who feel that they must protect the Dev's from posters who have criticisms or as in your case, a concise, truthful, "quoted from the horses mouth", remarks.  These 'hangers on' seem to shudder at the thought that someone may not be completely head-over-heels with the current state, whatever it may be.  What they don't quite get is that while well intentioned, they are squelching the very necessary comments that the Dev's need to improve the product and more importantly, get buy-in from the users.

I however, believe that the Dev's here are big boys and girls who gain a great deal of insight from users who challenge them and push them to better practices whether it be from a coding or marketing perspective.  Much more so than the ones who just giggle and coo at each SVN and CSS color change.  I know the Dev's are not to blame, it is these would-be knights in shining armor that take it personal and feel violated when someone dares to question them.

To those out there that have questions and concerns...post away, be heard and say what you need to without the passing thought of mindless retribution coming from the periphery.  And to those who are users without a concern what-so-ever, continue to use and enjoy.

Thanks for your input feldon.

Mark.

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:46 pm
by AmyStephen
Mark -

There is work to be done. Code to be written. Testing to be performed. Bugs to be found and squashed. Documentation to be written. Questions from end users to be answered. All of those tasks take volunteers willing to give freely of themselves to perform the work. That volunteerism is the foundation of Joomla! - it is these people who give that time and make things happen. Perfectly? No. But with commitment until the work is done.

I can see that we have a recent wave of people coming into the Joomla! forums. It is good to see you all. I sincerely hope now that you are here, you will take time to point out problems. Download the latest nightly build of Joomla! v 1.5. Test it with a passion  - please look for weaknesses! Then, please articulate specifics so that these problems are added to the task list.

Unfortunately, comments that are general in nature (whether those comments are negative -or- positive) are not as helpful as statements like "When I enable the first two SEF URL options, using PHP 4.3.1, I get 404 errors when clicking any link." That type of report is useful! I hope that makes sense.

Joomla! v 1.5 RC3 has bugs. Anyone who says it doesn't is probably not very involved. There is only one group of people who understand that better than those of us here, day after day, working with end user community members who want to get their sites built. And, that group of people are our developers. I am confident that with well articulated bug reports from us, the developers will continue, as they have done, to put one foot in front of the other, squash these bugs and bring Joomla! v 1.5 home.

And, Mark, at that time, I can only hope that you are right in that they will have the reward of celebrating "countless numbers of satisfied users coupled with perennial accolades and awards." I'll lift a glass, myself, celebrating their commitment and generosity!

Now, let's each contribute in a significant way,
Amy :)

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:59 pm
by fireman
Your honor......I rest my case.

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:59 pm
by garyamort
fireman wrote: feldon,

Not that you should care, but I couldn't not agree with you more!  You bring up excellent points concerning what appears to be "double talk" or "conflicting "reports".
I don't see the double talk.  I see some people saying 1.5 is ready to go and I've been able to deploy it fine for my clients.

Other people are saying "Well, I had a problem when I did XYZ inmy production environment"

And other people saying "Well, doh, it is not released yet and still has bugs".

The thing is, it's different people saying these things - so it's not so much "double talk" as not being discriminating on who you listen to.  Test test test, if it works, great.  If it fails, use 1.0.12

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:06 pm
by AmyStephen
fireman wrote: Your honor......I rest my case.
@Fireman - What do you want, specifically? Help us, help you. How are we letting you down? I am serious.

+++

@garyamort - very well put. I agree with your perspective on where we are at with v 1.5. And, I thank you for being here with us and helping other community members. That's how we will get there - and your contributions are needed and appreciated.

Keep the faith, guys! We can do it!
Amy :)

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:08 pm
by fireman
I doubt that this:
Seriously, what is everyone waiting for? RC 3 is good to go, folks. Just like any other website you build - get your backup and restore processes fired up and working and you will be fine.
and then this:
Joomla! v 1.5 RC3 has bugs. Anyone who says it doesn't is probably not very involved.
...coming from the same user, in the same thread no less could be mistaken for anything less than double talk. ???

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:11 pm
by fireman
Amy,

Calm your trusty steed.  I have not asked for anything.

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:15 pm
by AmyStephen
fireman wrote: Amy,

Calm your trusty steed.  I have not asked for anything.
Then, why are you posting? What is your point? I want you to get what you are here for. We need a well articulated request so that we can hear your feedback and adapt as needed. I am still unclear as to what we are not doing well, in your opinion.

Thanks!
Amy :)

Re: Release Date for 1.5 stable?

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:24 pm
by infograf768
I guess it is now time to close this thread as it goes nowhere.