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Webdongle
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WP is everywhere

Post by Webdongle » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:17 pm

Over the past 6 months or so I have noticed a large increase in WP sites. Often when I am looking at a site for local bars/grills, restaurants, various small businesses and clubs ... there are many that are wp sites. It is almost as if use of WP is being spread by word of mouth. Anyone have ideas about this?
Last edited by imanickam on Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Moved the topic from the forum General Questions/New to Joomla! 3.x to the forum The Lounge
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results": Albert Einstein

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Re: WP is everywhere

Post by mbabker » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:27 pm

For me, this is an easy one to explain.

WordPress is focused on monopolization of the web. One of the recent interviews highlighted a goal of 85% market share, which essentially means Mullenweg owns the content publishing space with his software. That's a scary thought.

People are easily sold by the word of mouth marketing done by WordPress insiders. They give you the false sense of security in that you can put a site up and completely forget about it because of their automatic updates, neglecting to communicate that the scope of these automatic updates is presently limited (though if some have their way everything will soon be automatically updated no matter what). Some who are in their "core team" have even gone so far as to say showing a user an update prompt or a version number is disrespectful and that it is their job as the software vendor to update people's sites. I doubt many have thought through the ramifications of this mentality, even after a discussion to start auto-updating what might be considered abandonware sites for the sole purpose of padding their usage numbers to show a larger number of sites on current WordPress versions. Another scary aspect of WordPress is through their systems, the decision makers (Automattic) have the ability to force updates of anything on a WordPress site; imagine they started force pushing core WordPress updates then force pushing plugin and theme updates to fix breakages introduced by the core updates, giving no respect to the fact the user may have made customizations to anything in their WordPress site (some have even challenged that these forced updates may not be legal and could potentially be contradictory to the terms of the GPL).

Because of the way they market themselves, they have become a household term (people say they want a WordPress similar to how people say to Google something when they are referring to someone searching on the internet for something).

Because of the unchallenged growth, more people and companies jump on the WordPress train because you'd be pretty crazy to not follow the money. That results in more new business going into the WordPress ecosystem, which ultimately benefits Mullenweg and the investors in Automattic. And this is ultimately where the domino effect starts IMO.

So why is it everywhere? Because that's what Mullenweg wants, and thus far no software vendor nor litigator has challenged his aim for monopolizing the web in his vision.

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Re: WP is everywhere

Post by Webdongle » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:56 pm

Perhaps if Joomla offered automatic update then it might be more appealing? Not forced update but a setting that could be set by choice?
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results": Albert Einstein

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Re: WP is everywhere

Post by mbabker » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:05 am

I wouldn't advocate for it when comparing Joomla's release strategy to WordPress'. It works for them because what they ship in automatic updates aside from when they added their privacy package is literally nothing but security fixes and regressions introduced in that branch (meaning a bug introduced in 5.2.0 might be fixed in a 5.2.x automatic update but any bugs from 5.1 or earlier will wait for their next "major" update, which is a manual action). For comparison in Joomla terms, any 3.9.x releases would only be bugs introduced in 3.9.0 or later as well as security fixes, and any bug fixes for bugs from 3.8 or earlier would not be shipped until 3.10.

As long as there is no funded staff in Joomla to monitor the rollout of updates in the way that Mullenweg's staff does, I would not want more people in the Joomla ecosystem to be forced into donating more uncompensated volunteer time to the project for something that is an inherent high risk action (any software update is high risk no matter the scope of change, this isn't me saying "Joomla updates are bad"). Not to mention there is not that type of analytical reporting available within the Joomla project or software (WordPress has been under fire for years because of the level of telemetry data they collect and process, the data they collect contains enough information that their staff is able to contact a site owner on a failed update, that should say everything that needs to be said on the subject).

And, contrary to what those feeding the WordPress machine want you to believe, automatic software updates are not the end all be all of software security practices. I will always run a tight enough ship that software updates are manually applied by either myself or by an organization that is paid for a managed service; I don't want Automattic or Joomla or Bootstrap or MySQL or Jenkins or NodeJS or PHP or Docker or Apache or any one of the dozens of software providers whom I use to push their updates automatically to my systems unless someone from that organization is going to verify the update applied correctly and if necessary debug and potentially revert a failed update. And I guarantee you most organizations that use some form of automatic software updates are not providing that level of support.

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Re: WP is everywhere

Post by Webdongle » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:15 am

If the user chose to have automatic updates then that scenario would not occur.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results": Albert Einstein

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Re: WP is everywhere

Post by ribo » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:25 am

Webdongle wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:56 pm
Perhaps if Joomla offered automatic update then it might be more appealing? Not forced update but a setting that could be set by choice?
I understand your point but i think that automatic update is a risk as joomla can break if a user will use forced update if an extension needs update too. Also i don t think that automatic update will bring more users in joomla. If joomla would have more good free extensions than wp plugins and more good free templates than good free wp themes, it could bring much more users. But this is another discussion.
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Re: WP is everywhere

Post by smpleader » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:32 am

WP is easier in usage, as my experience.
WP is easy for any newbiew, amateur or non-php developer, then it's easy to become popular.
WP over come Joomla since about 3-4 years, not 6 months ( look at google trend )
I don't think it's bad or good here, just try hard for Joomla community as a developer, and I am happy with what we are doing.

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Re: WP is everywhere

Post by gws » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:59 am

An observation, in my day to day surfing the net I often come across references to WP,very rarely do I come across references to Joomla mentioned.

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Re: WP is everywhere

Post by Webdongle » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:09 am

Yes wp has had the market share for a while but in the last few months its popularity has increased tremendously.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results": Albert Einstein

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Re: WP is everywhere

Post by infograf768 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:22 am

Let's face the facts:
Joomla, until version 2.5, was still a CMS for anyone. "Power in Simplicity" was the Mambo slogan and Joomla did stick to that value.
Since then, a lot of water went under the bridges and Joomla is more and more a CMS for specialists.
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Re: WP is everywhere

Post by abernyte » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:35 am

I think it is a critical mass thing. It has been sitting with a large share of the CMS market for a long time as the less technical users learn to use WP as a homonym for any CMS.
At some point - boom- vacuum cleaner becomes Hoover.
Its ease of use in its limited sphere also contributes to that success. "Do one thing well" was never a bad marketing strategy. The danger for Joomla as Automattic sucks the life blood out of the market is to be able to resist the lure of following. No one is going to out WP, WordPress, so success must lie in differentiation.
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Re: WP is everywhere

Post by waarnemer » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:30 am

Well.... for one, I did not notice any significant increase in popularity..

But honestly, this is a discussion on a market share fishing in the same pond...
With Joomla! you can look at the big fish and do more deep sea fishing...

J! is enterprise ready out of the box.
- out of the box SEO/SEF
- extended ACL allows working in large teams or cross department on same site.
- Versioning
...amongst a lot more awesome features..

So, with WP, when a company grows and expands, one is stuck with this one man band website. It doesn't fit anymore. The website cannot grow alongside with the company. The technology fails and Open Source all of a sudden is bad. Mind this; site owners are not the same people as the ones creating them..
So instead of choosing a new open source solution companies jump to proprietary solutions.

In a way WP is bad for Open Source.

Also J! marketing can do some about the first impression.
On the joomla.org, the features should be brought to top. (above the fold)
The current announcements holds two version update messages... avoid confusion; make this one...
Also, I know this has been discussed somewhere before, marketing should include the site owners, the ones that actually pay to have sites created for their business... (the ones that do not add content but have employees to do so)

we need to fish there...

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Re: WP is everywhere

Post by ribo » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:30 pm

waarnemer wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:30 am


With Joomla! you can look at the big fish and do more deep sea fishing...
I agree totally. That s why i like joomla and not wp.
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Re: WP is everywhere

Post by BlackWoods » Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:15 am

Been using WP for almost a decade now, I can vouch for the mass usage is due to the easy to understand.
Linking things together is also quite easy, I would say it appeals to people that is both IT illiterate and literate.

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Re: WP is everywhere

Post by Webdongle » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:27 am

Would slightly disagree. IT literate people tend not use simplified software because the simplification removes flexibility. Joomla is just is easy to learn as wp ... it is the extra flexibility that is more difficult. As wp does not have that flexibility it only appears to be easier.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results": Albert Einstein


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