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JurajB
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Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by JurajB » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:20 pm

someone update the wikipedia with this release
Last edited by toivo on Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: mod note: split from 3.9.19 Announcement Discussion

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JurajB
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Re: Discuss Joomla! 3.9.19

Post by JurajB » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:00 am

Joomla 3.9.17 - security release and minor bug fixes on April 21, 2020
Joomla 3.9.18 - minor bug fixes on April 21, 2020
Joomla 3.10 release will be the last scheduled minor release of the Joomla 3.x series and will be a long term support release
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joomla
please update this someone, also its beta 2 not a12
edit: please moderate this where it should be..

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Re: Discuss Joomla! 3.9.19

Post by Webdongle » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:11 am

It's a wiki not controlled by Joomla and it is public edit. Please contact the owners of that site or edit it yourself
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results": Albert Einstein.

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Re: Discuss Joomla! 3.9.19

Post by JurajB » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:31 am

Okay, Ill do my best.

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Re: Discuss Joomla! 3.9.19

Post by JurajB » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:51 am

Done, wikipedia updated.

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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by JurajB » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:32 am

wikipedia updated to 3.9.20

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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by pe7er » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:35 am

JurajB wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:32 am
wikipedia updated to 3.9.20
Thanks for taking care!
Kind Regards,
Peter Martin, Global Moderator
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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by Webdongle » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:44 am

+1
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by jgress- » Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:33 pm

JurajB wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:32 am
wikipedia updated to 3.9.20
Thank you :)
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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by sozzled » Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:12 am

I completely disagree with the approach taken to include minor dot-point/bugfix release information on Wikipedia.

There is a lot wrong with the Wikipedia entry for J!. Indeed, the entire article is flagged with "multiple [editorial] issues", including the fact that it relies too heavily on primary sources (i.e. lacking original research) and reads too much like an advertisement. I spent a couple of hours making a few cosmetic changes, fixed some poor grammar and did a bit of tidying up.

But no. I hope that never again will we see Wikipedia being used to simply talk up the once-every-six-week bugfix release cycle! I mean, seriously, if you count every single release of J! since J! 1.0, we'd be talking about writing an entry for every one of the 153 releases that have occurred over the past fifteen-something years. Give us a break, please!

What the Wikipedia page needs now, more than ever, is to put meat on the bones. Don't pervert it by make it something that it isn't; a self-congratulatory pat-on-the-back. For what? Every few weeks there's a new version? Let's think about how the Wikipedia article should be written to preserve J!'s place in history and, if my criticism seems extraordinarily harsh, it is only from this historical perspective that I'm criticising things.

It's nice that Joomla has a Wikipedia entry. That, in itself, is a measure of its success. 8)
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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by pe7er » Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:26 am

sozzled wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:12 am
I completely disagree with the approach taken to include minor dot-point/bugfix release information on Wikipedia.
You're free to disagree with the current approach :-)

I agree with the Joomla's approach of stating the minor dot-point/bugfix release information on Wikipedia.
Before I choose new software, I check the software's Github repo and its support forum, just to see how active a project is.

Other people might use Wikipedia to check the activity of a software project. Joomla! 3.9.0 was released on 30 October 2018. Listing only that major version might give the impression that the project has not been active for 2 years. Listing the minor dot-point/bugfix release information on Wikipedia gives a better idea about the activity.
Kind Regards,
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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by Webdongle » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:35 pm

sozzled wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:12 am
...
There is a lot wrong with the Wikipedia entry for J!. Indeed, the entire article is flagged with "multiple [editorial] issues", including the fact that it relies too heavily on primary sources (i.e. lacking original research) and reads too much like an advertisement. I spent a couple of hours making a few cosmetic changes, fixed some poor grammar and did a bit of tidying up....
Well done. Between you and @ JurajB the wiki entry should soon be accurate.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results": Albert Einstein.

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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by sozzled » Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:16 pm

Have spent another three hours updating the Wikipedia article. The WikiTalk page is a fascinating resource covering discussions about why the article has been judged as sub-standard and given a "C" rating.

And, no, we won't include details of every minor bugfix/dot-point release unless there's something especially significant about them.

Thanks for your encouragement, @Webdongle. I estimate I may be close to finishing my contribution in about two or three weeks. :laugh:
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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by toivo » Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:50 am

sozzled wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:16 pm
And, no, we won't include details of every minor bugfix/dot-point release unless there's something especially significant about them.
@sozzled, that was royal 'we' and clearly against @pe7er's recommendation. Please reconsider your contribution so that it is in line with what @pe7er mentioned.
Toivo Talikka, Global Moderator

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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by sozzled » Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:17 am

I considered it. I don't agree with it. I have done nothing wrong. I am trying to improve the overall quality of the Wiki article. The Wiki Talk page contains many criticisms of the article. Many of my recommendations have been rejected by the forum moderators—as is there prerogative on this forum—but Wikipedia is outside the bounds of forum moderator control, management or intervention.

"We" is used in the context of people who contribute to Wikipedia. Please don't try to interpret the use of that word in any other way. Thanks. :)

Many contributions on the Wikipedia article (including references to specific products that are actively promoted on this forum by certain people) have been rejected by the Wikipedia community. That's how it works.
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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by Webdongle » Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:45 pm

Wordpress have version history ... why should Joomla not have it?
Perhaps some of https://docs.joomla.org/What_version_of ... _use%3F/en could be copy/pasted by someone who has edit access to it?

Addendum
OK done it :D
Last edited by Webdongle on Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by sozzled » Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:11 pm

The Wikipedia entry for J! has a version history, too, just like the Wikipedia entry for WP has; minor versions only. Just the same (very similar). The main problem I have at the moment is not, so much, rewriting the Wikipedia page in a style reads like an entry in an encyclopaedia, but obtaining independent evidence-based analysis and criticism of J! so that the Wikipedia entry doesn't read like an advertorial.

Further, the history of J! needs to be updated to include, among other things, the near-fracturing of the community over the Mojalo experiment (remember that?) and the history of J! 4 over the past five-and-a-half years. It's a big job.
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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by Webdongle » Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:22 pm

http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results": Albert Einstein.

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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by toivo » Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:50 pm

The links in the Joomla CMS Versions are broken and the rest of the article has suffered. Hopefully you two will be able to fix the tags. Otherwise, you can always revert to a previous version.
Toivo Talikka, Global Moderator

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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by Webdongle » Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:18 pm

on it

Addendum
Done it
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results": Albert Einstein.

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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by sozzled » Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:15 pm

What a total shambles. A complete mess. Ruined! Please stay out of things until I've finished my work in a couple of weeks!

I understand the confusion about "minor dot-point releases" that @pe7er was referring to. He was taking things, literally, the J! definition of SVN: major.minor.patch.

What @JurajB did, that b------d things up, was to include details of a few patch versions that had been released. That was bad but I was appalled that people were using this forum to encourage this activity. I have removed references to patch versions, unless they were significant in some way.

Whether, as @pe7er implied, people may infer from reading the Wikipedia entry that there had not been any activity with the project for the past two years is neither here nor there. People can infer what they want from reading whatever it is that they read. I do not believe that the Wikipedia article confirms that J! development is "inactive" (but listing every patch release—as @JurajB did—doesn't help, either).

As for that God-awful table that @Webdongle (or someone who doesn't have an accredited Wikipedia account) inserted—apart from being incorrect in some of its detail and a duplicate of information appearing later in the Wikipedia entry—it's an eyesore, it renders impossibly badly on a iPad and it's located in the wrong place (destroying the flow of the "read"! I know that people are only trying to help but I ask people to please stay clear of things until I finish my end of things and then offer your input offline from the forum as per standard WikiTalk. Thanks . :)

Therefore, until I can get a proper handle on things and turn the release history part into a useful table, I would like to remove that in-your-face table (appearing at the top of the article) from the Wikipedia entry and substitute it with a slightly altered version further down. Thanks, @toivo, for updating the information about the CMS package size. :)
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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by sozzled » Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:02 pm

Still a major work-in-progress; spent half the day yesterday re-working the version history table so that it's more accurate, less biased, based on evidence and does not break when viewed on mobile devices.

I am striving to preserve the J! sotry without subjective comparative qualifiers (e.g. "very simple" where the word simple would be sufficient), unsubstantiated assertions (e.g. "J! has thousands of accredited extensions"—yes, but accredited by whom or what?), advice for new users (e.g. "users should do such-and-such"), etc. Further, in telling the story of what's happened over the past 15 years, the Wikipedia article needs to document the project's difficult moments—as opposed to offering a defence of those difficulties or rewriting history as if those moments never occurred—and document the outcomes of those difficulties.

Aside from Andrew Eddie, Louis Landry (whom I've met) and one other, the Wiki article does not mention many "personalities" whose contribution to the project was significant. This is also an area that I would like to see expanded.

I should be grateful, if anyone would like to contribute their thoughts, ideas, expressions of interest of offers of help, to help guide me with my work. I would welcome your contributions, preferably off-line from this forum, by contacting me via email (not via PM, please).

Thanks. :)
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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by toivo » Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:15 pm

sozzled wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:02 pm
I should be grateful, if anyone would like to contribute their thoughts, ideas, expressions of interest of offers of help, to help guide me with my work. I would welcome your contributions, preferably off-line from this forum, by contacting me via email (not via PM, please).
It is better to maintain open communications through this forum and the Talk:Joomla page, rather than set up a private side channel.
Toivo Talikka, Global Moderator

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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by sozzled » Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:01 pm

Thanks, @toivo, for your complete lack of encouragement for what I'm doing! >:(

I was asking for help.

I appears that people only want to criticise what I'm doing and the way I'm going about things instead of offering useful information that contributes to my work. It's not very encouraging, is it? Where's the support here?

If it's good enough for the developers and other areas of OSM to use "side channels" (i.e. not use the forum) to discuss what they're doing, I guess this forum seems to have lost its purpose.

I'm done with using this forum to discuss Wikipedia.
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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by Webdongle » Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:06 pm

sozzled wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:01 pm
...
If it's good enough for the developers and other areas of OSM to use "side channels" (i.e. not use the forum) to discuss what they're doing, ...
Those are working groups. The alterations to the Joomla entry (in wikipedia) is not done with a closed group.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results": Albert Einstein.

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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by sozzled » Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:27 pm

Background: see viewtopic.php?f=48&t=2163

The Wikipedia page has been largely unchanged for fifteen years; this is how the article appeared before I started my review: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =982268694

Updating the page has been a consuming research project that has taken me two weeks to complete—or complete to the best of my ability—that meets Wikipedia's editorial policy that's evidence-based, researched and summarised in one's own words. Another way of saying that is that it is against that policy to simply cut-and-paste large pieces from promotional material. Further, Wikipedia articles should provide an unbiased, balanced overview of the subject.

Updating the Wikipedia page involved reading hundreds of articles and blogs, several books and watching hours of video presentations. It has been a fascinating journey through time.

I've done my bit for now. Whether I'm thanked for doing what I've done or whether people like or dislike my contribution will be for each of you to decide for yourselves. If I have omitted anything of significance or if the article could be improved in some way, again, people can contact me directly or use the tools within Wikipedia to address those things. I only submit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joomla for your consideration.
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Re: Joomla Wikipedia page

Post by jgress- » Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:21 pm

Thank you, Michael.
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