Decided to Design Joomla Sites for my Clients Topic is solved

[AGABBY]

Hello,

Since 2014, this forum, developers have taught me so much about Joomla. I've enhanced my HTML, CSS and Javascript skills as well. I first learned Dbase mgt and HTML 30yrs ago and never planned on adding website development and design to my advocacy and consulting biz. Nevertheless, clients are inquiring and if I can earn extra money in this volatile economy to maintain. I'm all for it.

OK, question to the gurus. When I take on a website design project for a client who already has a domain, should I request that they use my host, then point and park their domain in order to design it? Or??

The other challenge I've discovered are the many people who are oblivious to Joomla (which could be advantageous to my biz and Joomla) so I may have to provide training to the client too or offer monthly maintenance services.

Any all all suggestions welcome.. Thx in advance..

Ag

[toivo]

This topic was moved. The Professional Development Services sub forum is not a discussion forum, its topics do not accept any replies, but it allows forum members to request quotations for paid services from Joomla experts.

[AMurray]

I would design off-line - your PC on a web server package like WAMPServer, or you could set up a sub-domain on their hosting - so you can develop the site there, and give the client access so they can see its progresss etc.

If you work offline such as on your PC with WaMPServer, then use Akeeba Backup to make an easy and smooth transition to the live server (Akeeba backs up both database and files) and its companion Kickstart, will extract the archive, and then launch an installer that restores the site to working condition.

You could also put the front end into "Offline" mode with a message like "under development" and protect the administrator side with .htaccess/htpasswd so that only your client and yourself have access until it's ready for live roll-out.

As far as hosting goes, is "your host" just your preferred company or are you reselling hosting through them?
It probably doesn't matter as long as the host is a decent one that runs Joomla satisfactorily.

You could of course, direct the domain of the client to your hosting, e.g. point it via the domain name server of their domain registrar, or using a static IP etc.

[darb]

I think its always better to develop the site on the live host where it should also be live later. You know and have tested Joomla where it should be later with all optimisation settings you can do on that host.

AMurray had some good advice and you can also use set up a subfolder test site in the live site folder that is protected with its own db or use a combination of Joomla extensions StageIT and Akeeba backup structure in combination. With StageIT you can also make more tests/developments before launch it live and also later use it when site is live for further test and developments enhancements. Its like the suggestion for having Joomla in a subfolder in your live site environment.

Only problem with StageIT is if you have a very large site from beginning it need more memory and cpu power and with lot of example db/files exlusions that is little bit messy but working well easy with smaller and midsize startup projects that grows.

[AGABBY]

@Amurray you provided some really clear examples. I thought about the last two as well, pointing their domain to my host company because I have unlimited websites with my current plan. I've used the "Coming Soon" extensions quite often. I've also contemplated for some time reselling hosting where I suppose would charge the client a monthly fee to use. I've used WaMPServer in the past, not sure why I preferred not to.

@darb I will definitely check out StageIT because initially the site will not be very large, however it may grow as time goes on

Thank you both for your helpful responses. I truly appreciate it.
ag

[AGABBY]

This topic was moved. The Professional Development Services sub forum is not a discussion forum, its topics do not accept any replies, but it allows forum members to request quotations for paid services from Joomla experts.

@toivo - thanks. After reading instructions, finding what I thought was the right place, I could not figure where to post my question without making sure I'm not penalized.

[toivo]

@AGABBY, no problems! When a topic is not a report about an issue in Joomla or a question about Joomla but still related to Joomla, the right place for the topic is The Lounge.

[AGABBY]

OMG! My other delimma is, do I design the client's site with Joomla 4 or the latest 3.10 that I am most famliar with? I've read some not so good posts about Joomla 4, having to relearn and reteach clients. Also the couple of templates I like are only J3.8, taking designers a long time to update. Any idea how long we'll hav before transitioning to J4? Also is the learning curve outrageous? Thanks
a

[AMurray]

The learning curve may be considered moderate, but not unachievable. You could set up a test site for yourself and your clients in order to test it.

J4 also has readily available context help screens (i.e. the screen you're on, clicking the help button will open the relevant help documentation for the screen you're using) in addition to this forum and the standard documentation (https://docs.joomla.org documentation).

The user interface is improved, and it uses modern web technologies. Support for 3.10 ends approximately September 2023. Keep an eye on https://www.joomla.org for all the news.

[Webdongle]

Here is what I would do.

Develop on localhost Wamp (mamp on a mack)
Transfer to a subdomain on a server you use to test things like email, tfa etc.
Allow your client to access as Administrator NOT Super user! (if you upgrade their Admin account they have full access to your server)

Once they are happy and paid
Give them the choice of having their Domain Hosted by yourself or they can find a Host. Preferably the former as they may pick something like gddy
Once they decide use Akeeba to move the site to the folder for their Domain (or server) and create a Super user for them (if you upgrade their Admin account they have full access to your server on the subdomain!).

With all it's pitfalls I would say use J4 for the new site.

Probably one of the most important things, let them decide who is responsible for updating. If they don't want to pay you for updating then make it clear if the site gets hacked it's their responsibility. If they pay you for maintenance make sure they know if the upload things or allow other users to do so if they get hacked they are responsible. You may want legal advice on that and contract wording.

foot note
Restoring a backup for a hacked site is NOT a solution. Wiping the files and replacing with new ones (and other things) is.

[AGABBY]

@Webdongle you must have been reading my mind!! I'm thinking do I allow them access as a super user once this is said and done.. During our initial meeting I did offer 6 months maintenance at a specified monthly fee. I also stated they'd need to purchase their own subscription with the host I've used for 8yrs.
However, should I worry about anyone reviewing my custom css code. I spend lots of time researching, ensuring functionality, sometimes revisions. This should be proprietary.

@Amurray yes I've decided that I have no choice but to fully grasp J4. I'm definitely capable with the help of this forum, a few other Joomla template developers I learned Joomla in 2014. I'm also strongly considering providing beginner workshops in my area of California. Um, although having a couple of graduate degrees, I've experienced many financial setbacks and being displaced, but I think adding Joomla web services to my side hustle, may help resurrect some hope.


Thank you so much for responding.. I'll probably be back.
a

[Webdongle]

... I'm thinking do I allow them access as a super user once this is said and done.. ...
However, should I worry about anyone reviewing my custom css code. I spend lots of time researching, ensuring functionality, sometimes revisions. This should be proprietary.
...

Give them Admin Access to test the site before they buy it. But once they buy imho you should give them full control of the site. By creating a different user NOT promoting the Admin you give them SU access to their new site on their server not to the demo site on yours.


My understanding is that any code you produce, that relies on Joomla's code, must be GPL. And made available for anyone to copy or to use.
https://tm.joomla.org/joomla-license-faq.html

Can I release an extension under a non-GPL licence?

It is our opinion that most extensions are derivative works of Joomla! and must be licensed under the GNU GPL. It is possible that an extension could work within Joomla! and not be considered a derivative work according to copyright law but this would have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. If you believe your extension is not a derivative work we strongly recommend that you seek professional legal advice.

[sozzled]

@AGABBY: interesting discussion and one that's likely to be a topic of conversation around the "water cooler" for a few years or so (like the Monday morning debates about what could've/should've happened—or didn't happen—at the sports on Saturday). It's all good.

Sometimes technical discussion forums can help but, in my experience, talking things over with a cup of coffee in one's hand—one on one or with group of other people)—in real time can provide wonderful insights about how to establish one's website development business. If it were not so challenging—I'm choosing my words carefully—to find and join an active local Joomla User Group then I would recommend that idea to you.

I agree with @Webdongle about the GPL insofar as it applies to J!. Yes, you can include your own "proprietary" trade secrets if you want, but remember that J! is open-source software. Open source does not mean it's free of costs to people who use it; it just means that it must be distributed under terms of the licensing provisions. The GPL does not prevent you from selling your produce; however, whatever you create with J! must include the original copyright notices relating to the software you used if you're going to your added value. That's just how the GPL works. Kind of complicated to get one's head around in a technical discussion forum, I'm sure.

Good luck with your venture. If you know someone whose opinions you value, I'd suggest you reach out to them and have a face-to-face (or virtual) chat. Sure beats playing solitaire! *heh-heh-heh*

[AGABBY]

@Webdongle @sozzled thanks for your insight because I honestly did not think about Joomla being open source, which was the draw for me to use after trying so many others. I also checked out the Joomla User Groups before I committed to learning Joomla, in hopes of getting some help but although my area in West part of the US, says they exist but I had no luck. I received more help from people in other countries. But, OK, this did give me the idea to teach workshops and help others to learn Joomla too. Now, I think if it's open source, it just means everyone has free access to use, but doesn't mean I can't charge for my services to teach others. That other open source is very popular here and I'm always quick to share Joomla with people.

But, OK.. thanks so much for the advice, just shows I'm on the right path.
a

[AGABBY]

Just had a thought.. considering that Joomla is open source, how do template and extension developers get past selling their templates? Is code changed, etc.? Thanks
a

[sozzled]

The GPL licence does not require people must distribute their products free-of-charge; they can sell their products if they wish. I provided links earlier in this topic to the GPL; you can read it yourself. "Open source" does not mean something has to be free of cost; it means that the product can be distributed subject to certain licensing conditions (e.g. the GPL) provided that all original copyright notices are retained.

[AGABBY]

Hello everyone.. back to the discussion to those of you who develop for business with clients. I think I bit myself in the butt. I completed a website as promised for a client. Received deposit up front. What I assumed is that the client would have their content, images, videos ready for me to insert. I am now 4 weeks out and they are still trying to gather their materials. I explained at the onset that I do not write content, after all the client knows what they want to display to the world.

I should have closed the contract in a manner that if I did not receive these materials by a certain date????? I did share with them that I am willing to maintain their site for a monthly fee after this contract ends. But guess what? I am performing the task anyway, maintaining their site updates and all. To help them along, I've went beyond and inserted images (paid via subscription), etc., to give them a visual of the site. I also shared some content as a fresh start.

I have other clients (not all website, but publishing) with tight demands, including my own business development, conferences, etc. I have never worked with such a laborious client. They also want a committee meeting for every little thing, zoom meeting and I don't have this time.

Why can't they turn in their content so I can complete and close the website contract? I've been done since August 2022. I want to establish an amendment to the contract, giving them till October 2022 to have this complete.

PLEASE ALL WISDOM, ADVICE WELL RECEIVED. Thanks

A

[sozzled]

Contracts ... *sigh* ... are bundles of paper that, once signed, are placed in the drawer and they're only looked at again when there's a dispute. As long as the contract stated that "the customer is responsible for all content (images, videos, article text)" and "the developer shall not be liable for damages arising from the customer's failure to deliver material content when requested" and "either party may terminate this contract (without prejudice) upon issuing a written notice xx days ..." then you could just terminate the contract, take the deposit you've been given, and walk away from the job.

Contracts, once they've been agreed to, are very difficult to amend afterwards unless there's goodwill on all sides to agree to amending them. If you've done all you're required to do under the terms of the contract, you can demand final payment and, if the other party disputes this, you can take the matter to court. It depends on whether it's worth the time and the money involved in litigating the matter.

As I say, contracts are bundles of paper that become weaponised when one party does something that costs the other party something that wasn't envisaged when the contract was signed.

As far as having conferences for "every little thing", I don't have a problem with that. Write your contract that states, "there will be regular meetings between the customer and the developer but if the customer requires additional meetings outside the agreed schedule, the developer shall be entitled to reasonable expenses to attend such meetings". So, your contract can factor-in a once-a-month meeting but if the customer wants you to attend meetings more often than that, you could charge them for your time to attend the meeting.

I have a simple rule in life: "For every question there is an answer: the solution is to place a dollar sign on the problem."

Contracts ... *sigh* ... going above and beyond the call of duty ... is it worth it? The last time I had a difficult client was a person who gave me a sob story about being strapped for cash and would I do her a favour. So I did the favour and didn't charge any money. Two months later, I said that I couldn't keep working on this job unless we agreed to a contract and that's when the relationship fell apart. Ultimately I just gave the client a backup of the work I'd completed and let them go their own way. Their website still exists but has not been changed since I worked on it four years ago, the only difference today is that the client surprisingly "discovered" enough money to pay a webhosting company to host it.

I'm sure we all have our contract war-stories.

[AGABBY]

@sozzled bahhhahaaa. I enjoy your replies. This was on my mind, "I have a simple rule in life: "For every question there is an answer: the solution is to place a dollar sign on the problem." " and where I need to go.

Thanks for the input about adding meetings to the contract because I did not. And I think I forgot to include mutual agreement to terminate the contract. I received a final payment, but their response was, "The website is not complete until we have presented all content and it's live". I asked them, and how long do you think I should allow this to go on?

Yes, this is a non profit and I help many people free of charge as well for most of my biz but at least you know where you stand. Years ago, my accountant said, "always charge something, even if its a discount. I don't care if it's family". I have learned that when people value your services they will pay.

I'll review your suggestions and I need to revisit my contract to see if I added a termination clause. I hope so.. I'm finishing my last status repot for them. They have no idea the hours and details it takes to complete a website, because now I'm also designing elements on photoshop, premiere pro. I know, I know.. I learned a lesson.

Question? What should be included in the complete termination packet? Website backed up on a disk, status reports...

Thanks again @sozzled

Oh btw, I have a question about placement of script that I will post on the forum? Thx

[sozzled]

Remembering that I'm just a person who studied a bit of contract law at university many thousands of years ago, and that I helped draft contracts that involved millions of dollars when I was working (a few hundred years ago now, it seems) I'm always available to discuss with anyone, at any time (and at zero cost), anything.

In response to "The website is not complete until we have presented all content and it's live" that has nothing to do with the contract (unless the contract specifically stated that the developer's work is complete when the customer decides that the website is in live operation somewhere) and no contract should ever be so vaguely ill-defined as to not specify a contract end-date.

If you want legal advice about how to construct a contract then contact a lawyer. If you want general advice about what we've learned from our own experiences, you can write to anyone whose opinions you value and arrange to have a chat over a cup of coffee sometime. What you do, however, is entirely your choice.

How long do I think you should allow the current problem to go on? Hmmm ... does it matter what I think? How long is a piece of string? It depends on how large a dollar sign you put on things.

What should be included in the completed package (e.g. backup copies)? That's your business but you have to work that out before you sign the contract.

Status reporting: again, you need to organise those parts of the contract before you sign it.

I have a pro-forma contract that includes the issues we've discussed here in this topic, including (among dozens of matters) intellectual property rights, copyright, escrow, determination, consideration, progress reporting, progress payments, scope of work, deliverables, court of jurisdictional competence, etc.

Contracts (a bit like marriages) can be determined by mutual consent or when one party decides they've had enough. You don't need two people to decide that the marriage is over, do you? The termination clauses in a contract need to spell out how the contract may come to an end (and whether there should be any penalty if some of parcel of work was not delivered) but, even if these things are spelt-out, disputes arise and that's where you need to reconcile yourself to the inevitable: walk away or call the lawyers.

[AGABBY]

Thanks so much again @sozzled. I'm scheduled to meet with them in a couple of days, not sure what the meeting is for. I only need their content. Yes, I agree re: the contracts I have another contract vetted by an attorney and see I didn't use this one, which has the termination clause. I hope this conversation helps others. I've learned so much here and wish I would have inquired sooner.

Thanks
a

[AGABBY]

@sozzled it's done. I was paid in full, however the client said they didn't realize how much was involved on their part with providing content, images, etc. and it's too overwhelming for them. Thus, I am providing the termination without prejudice, giving them a backup of the site and to me most important a detailed summary report for the last 3 months. But, I think I made one mistake and might need to back pedal. I offered them the opportunity to access and keep the site on my server temporarily until they figured it out.

Definitely not OK, so I need to find the language to nip this relationship in full. WHEW.. thanks for the feedback.

[sozzled]

You're welcome. While it's borderline "against the forum rules" you can contact me via PM if you want to discuss ideas for what to include in your contracts. I'm happy to give you my thoughts at no cost to you other than your time. Cheers.