Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

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Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by darb » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:15 am

Hi

This is a discussion of how to improve the core of Joomla and also make something good for the core dev of Joomla...

I will come back with more info here just following up Amy Stephens blog today http://community.joomla.org/blogs/commu ... la-16.html.

I write a little bit about the ideas here but I will make this more clear and come back here with a model about what I mean about this idea.

http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f ... oomla+hero
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First draft of idea:

Joomla heroes of the month core VIPs - 24 persons for 3 years donation model

This is a suggestion idea for how to improve Joomlas core dev support and also financially support the core dev/contributors to Joomla core development.

This is important so Joomla can face a better speed of development and also making the important people around Joomla core better focused/committed on their task of improving Joomlas core for all of its community members.

Donation model for Joomla hero of the month core VIP

The idea about giving donations/credit back to you core devs/contributors and other engaged important people behind Joomla.

The concept is named "Joomla hero of the month core VIP"

Time period
A hero could only receive donations for a 12 month time period and he have just exclusive right to be nominated for one flash page on Joomla.org for a period of 1 month making pr for one Joomla hero per month. Rest of your time 12 month period you are on a general VIP donation page.

A period for a hero is 1-12 months of donation time. After that donations stop for this hero.

The hero gets 90% of the donation and are obligated to sub donate 10 % of his own donation to another Joomla project(s)/person(s)/or 3pds within the Joomla community. Can not be any kind of associate or any kind of interests to him personally though. This will be told in advance on his own donation page.

Payouts

Payment of donations is done 50% after one month period and the rest 50% after a 2 years commitment. Statement of commitments must also be done for receiving the donations in full.

Donation recommendations from private and companies world wide per month
Private person: 3-8 USD/person
Company: 5-25 or more (USD/company)

Nominee committee
Ordinary core Joomla dev group that nominee who and why somebody should be hero. Suggestion is from me the first all now contributing core devs and later what this committee nominate.

Possible outcome of donations for single core dev/contributor

1 month donation. Approx. 5 USD/person company
Possible outcome 150.000 donations x 5 USD = 750.000 USD for support to core dev - 10% for sub donation.
Everything is possible here....

Approx cost for community members and companies one year:
12 donations for 12 persons/year

60 USD

Well this is the basic idea and hope you understand what I mean.

So any comments, improvements etc welcomed!

What you think? :pop
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by AmyStephen » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:47 pm

Darb -

All my viewpoints, here, I do not speak for Joomla!, just Amy. ;-)

A couple of years ago, I started a fund raising drive to get the core team members a little bit for a holiday gift. I think it's fair to say they were uncomfortable with that concept.

If we want to respect those who are contributing, the way to do that is to contribute, ourselves.

For those earning a living with Joomla!, I challenge you to give something back to the community. Make it known *by evidence of your work* that you are an important part of bringing Joomla! to the world.

If you are a developer, the Joomla! Development Coordinators have shared plans for Joomla! 1.6 and have asked third party developers to *get involved* in making it happen. Core development is opening up - get on the mailing lists - help carry the rocks - don't ask for things to be done for you - help make things happen.

http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leade ... mmary.html

If you are not a developer, there are many ways to help. Here's ideas on getting started http://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/cont ... oomla.html

If you don't have time, donate cash. Contact OSM and ask how to make that happen. http://opensourcematters.org/contact.html

It is my opinion that if you first have to get assurances about how money is used, or if it is critical to you that your efforts are visibly recognized, it's best not to help. I believe the project needs people to step up who understand it's in their best interest to be a part of ensuring Joomla!'s future.

If I had lots of money, I would love to fund your model, Darb. I have a great deal of respect for our contributors because I have watched and I know the personal commitment they have made. I believe they want our involvement.

Thanks for your genuine respect for the work they do.
Amy :)

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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by darb » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:38 pm

Thanks for your comments Amy! :)

Well if all the core people at Joomla is uncomfortable with a similar concept than its not much to do about it.

I just thought that a model like this is very convenient for community members for making a quick economical contribution. We all need these best brains guys focusing on Joomla core dev for the future and if we can help some of them with some dollars/Euros - why not?

Any comments from core devs?
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by p9939068 » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:03 pm

If Joomla is willing, how about a secondary endorsed directory (listed on the main site next to JED), where developers pay to get listed (including non-GPL extensions. No OSM rules). The monthly recurring revenue from that will be substantial.
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by darb » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:19 pm

p9939068 wrote:If Joomla is willing, how about a secondary endorsed directory (listed on the main site next to JED), where developers pay to get listed (including non-GPL extensions. No OSM rules). The monthly recurring revenue from that will be substantial.
Well one good idea.

This is one Joomla founding that could be tested if it working. If not working it can be easy closed down so what do Joomla have to lose test it?
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by Tonie » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:26 pm

What would the benefit be for the current extensions listed on JED? After all, two directories will only lead to end user confusion.

What does money change about the reasons to not list non-GPL extensions?

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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by darb » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:32 pm

Success in the long run Its not about the code its about the people and community that's make it!
Its not what you say its what you do that matters!

Darb - aka ssnobben

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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by p9939068 » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:33 pm

Tonie wrote:What would the benefit be for the current extensions listed on JED? After all, two directories will only lead to end user confusion.
They get to list for free, if they're compliant to the JED's regulations. They have access to the news sections (what happened to that, anyway?) and perhaps other perks. The secondary listing is for anyone who are willing to pay for it. It is just a list, nothing more.
Tonie wrote:What does money change about the reasons to not list non-GPL extensions?
You have to see this from a completely different angle. It becomes a business decision, a way to get money into Joomla (to fund developers, future projects, marketing etc etc). Ideology isn't part of this suggestion (ideology isn't a good mix with any business decision).
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by AmyStephen » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:59 pm

I would rather see us helping people get involved with the project than charging money for services. It is really important to keep those barriers to participate low. Charging for listings is a slippery slope. There are ways for those who want extra coverage to get that now - you can purchase Google Ads and get more exposure on Joomla!'s sites. I don't know how all that works, to be honest, but that opportunity is there.

The point of the article is - if we have community engagement problems (and I think we do) - then, we need to address community engagement. And, that means community needs to engage, btw. :) So, this is our community and it's our problem. Money doesn't fix everything.

My 2 cents. Plus the change.
Amy :)

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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by Tonie » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:25 pm

p9939068 wrote:You have to see this from a completely different angle. It becomes a business decision, a way to get money into Joomla (to fund developers, future projects, marketing etc etc). Ideology isn't part of this suggestion (ideology isn't a good mix with any business decision).
I do know what you mean. The decision to delist GPL extensions on JED was based on the thought that extensions for Joomla should also be GPL (some agree, some dont). However, if this is the idea of the project, how can they list non GPL extensions and ask money for listing?

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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by p9939068 » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:34 pm

Tonie wrote:However, if this is the idea of the project, how can they list non GPL extensions and ask money for listing?
Then it begs the question whether the "idea" is the most effective and/or efficient business decision, doesn't it?

Berkshire started as a textile company, the idea of which is entirely different from what it is today.
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by AmyStephen » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:45 pm

Mike - with respect, that ship sailed. And, it's not going to change back. It's okay that folks feel differently about it, and it's very unfortunate how we all handled that change, myself in particular, sincere apologies. But, we are heading this direction, now, and we need to join back together as a community. That's my only comment on this since I have no interest in alienating you in any way.

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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by p9939068 » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:50 pm

Oh no, I'm not saying we should reopen the entire GPL thing (that will serve no purpose, at least not on what we're discussing about here). I'm just saying if the project needs funds, the most lucrative/politically correct/straightforward way is to "get back" from commercial developers, who will gladly pay for it in exchange for some sort of "service".

-edit- For example, paying for Google ads on Joomla.org is one way, but that is obviously insufficient (both from J!'s and the advertisers' point of view)
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by p9939068 » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:56 pm

To put it simply: Right now there is no mutually benefiting way for commercial developers to contribute financially to J! (apart from Google ads, which is so tiny at the bottom of the forum)
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by AmyStephen » Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:13 pm

Thank you for your respectful response.

Ok, it sounds like if people want to contribute (from the announcement):
We welcome financial support for this initiative and will be posting more about sponsorship opportunities in the coming weeks. In the meantime if you are interested in sponsorsing please feel free to email sponsors @ opensourcematters.org
Your comment about "mutually beneficial" is a good one. It would be a good idea to at least recognize the financial contributors in some way. Maybe list them on our sponsors page, or give their services listing a "Supporter" badge. That might also give some of the benefit you are suggesting. I think it's good to generate ideas, like you are doing.

Personally, I'd like to see us focus primarily on re-engaging our community and build back the enthusiasm we damaged during the GPL talks. Build up our eco-system and rebuild that expectation of professionals giving something back. This place used to be pretty spectacular and I'm certain we can bring that back.

It's not easy and we all have different ideas on the best way forward. It's good to share.

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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by bennieblanco » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:42 am

p9939068 wrote:If Joomla is willing, how about a secondary endorsed directory (listed on the main site next to JED), where developers pay to get listed (including non-GPL extensions. No OSM rules). The monthly recurring revenue from that will be substantial.

Great idea p9939068, Just few facts ,
before new GPL there was over 1500 commercial extensions listed. Friend of mine is making a joomla directory so he counted how many people lost links,
I am 99.99% sure if JED would start charging for commercial submissions , commercial templates and so on , they will make pretty nice sum that could help further development and help both sides to reach new goals

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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by mandville » Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:18 am

bennieblanco wrote:directory so he counted how many people lost links,
I am 99.99% sure if JED would start charging for commercial submissions , commercial templates and so on , they will make pretty nice sum that could help further development and help both sides to reach new goals
but how much would you be willing to pay for a listing? to someone like virtuemart or rockettheme it would be a small percentage, to joannebloggs inc it might be 90% of her gto
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by Vimes » Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:18 pm

mandville wrote:but how much would you be willing to pay for a listing? to someone like virtuemart or rockettheme it would be a small percentage, to joannebloggs inc it might be 90% of her gto
Then try something like tiered listings where pay more = go to the top. There's a whole ton of ways it can be done to suit all pockets, it's something that's been looked at many times over the years, I'm sure some bright spark can come up with something.

I for one would be happy to pay money to be listed on JED / AN Other directory that gets the traffic that Joomla's servers do. Being kicked off JED has hurt my business tremendously, I regularly get people saying "Weren't you listed on the extensions directory?" It's as if no longer being listed is in some way calling into question the security or stability of the product (even though it's one of Joomla's oldest projects).



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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by brad » Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:58 pm

Vince.. have you considered listing your site on: http://resources.joomla.org yet? What about listing your product on JED? It's free if you follow the rules, as you well know.

Also, as I remember it, you removed your product from JED yourself initially. Now it's not listed due to your products license I think.. I could be wrong though.

Have you read the latest blog on comments regarding JRD enhanced listings?
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by p9939068 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:09 pm

I may be wrong, but don't you need to be GPL/OSM compliant as well to be listed on JRD?
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by brad » Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:50 am

p9939068 wrote:I may be wrong, but don't you need to be GPL/OSM compliant as well to be listed on JRD?
You need to respect the project's trademark primarily. JRD is a place to list the services you provide, not the products. Products go on JED.
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by p9939068 » Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:26 am

So, if my website sells non-GPL software, but I provide Joomla related services, and my domain does not include joomla-related words, and I do not display Joomla's logo on my site, can I still list on JRD?
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by brad » Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:27 am

p9939068 wrote:So, if my website sells non-GPL software, but I provide Joomla related services, and my domain does not include joomla-related words, and I do not display Joomla's logo on my site, can I still list on JRD?
I am sure I have seen you ask this question in the forum before.. I know it has been asked and answered many times.

Here is the TOS from the two sites you seen to be focussed on:
JRD: http://resources.joomla.org/tos.html
JED: http://extensions.joomla.org/tos

Have you even submitted your listing?
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by p9939068 » Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:27 pm

I did ask about the JED here but there was no reply. As for the JRD, to be honest I just knew it existed yesterday (there is an article about special paid JRD features on the blogs).

I haven't submitted anything as this is still part of my formulation process. However I understand this is going off topic. I'll ask the question on JRD's board.
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by mcsmom » Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:55 pm

@Darb

You have a really interesting and creative idea, but it is not one that would work in this context for this exact issue, as I will explain below, though I could see doing a contest along those lines for students, where the real prize is the glory and the line on your resume.

I want you to understand some of the larger realities as you think more about how the project can move forward and work to ensure the long term quality and stability of the Joomla! codebase and brand over the next 3 to 7 years, including allowing it to be at the cutting edge of software development.

The truth is for people who have mortgages, children and payrolls, and who in general need to make a full time living month in month out, waiting for the luck of donations, focusing their time on winning popularity contests instead of doing the deep down less visible forward looking code work, competing against each other instead of working as a team, having it be a month to month unpredictable set up, and then having it be, by your calculations, a pretty minimal amount of funding for people with extremely high skill levels is not going to work.

If we have people putting in 20-40 hours and often more per week, week in and week out, as Joomla! core developers (and not just developers, but let's leave other areas for another day) have done during all of the high productivity times that we have had over the last 4+ years, we need to be honest with ourselves as a community about the nature of the demands that we are making on them.

Like all organizations that survive early days (and remember that most businesses and most forks fail) we are dealing with the happy and challenging consequences of success. We need to deal with the fact that tens of thousands of people depend on the codebase to earn their livings in one way or another, and millions depend on it to tell their stories or sell their products. That means we shouldn't be planning one month ahead, we need to plan how to sustain the project for the long term. We need to deal with the fact that core developers want to be able to have other hobbies and interests. That is, we need to have them work during work hours.

All of it is challenging, but we'll be able to do it, of that I am sure. This is a very strong project and a very strong community.
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by Vimes » Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:32 pm

Jomres proper is never going to be licensed as anything other as proprietary, but Jomres Lite is GPL/MIT, and my downloads server's getting hammered at the moment so there's definately a "market" for a top notch booking portal application.
brad wrote:Vince.. have you considered listing your site on: http://resources.joomla.org yet? What about listing your product on JED? It's free if you follow the rules, as you well know.
Indeed, I do. I did ask that the listing be republished as I'd released the Lite (GPL/MIT) version but I was told (paraphrasing as I can't find the email now from the JED team) I need to get the URL approved (that wasn't in the JED's FAQ http://docs.joomla.org/Joomla!_Extensio ... al_time.3F). One assumes, because http://www.jomres.net has "jom" in the title and some brainiac seems to feel that "jom" is derivative of "Joomla". I disagree, but then that happens a lot.

Irritating though it may be to ask for "permission" to use a domain I've been using for (5?) years, I toddled off to the domain name approval form (when I could find it) http://opensourcematters.org/domain-nam ... quest.html which says

"Domains distributing extensions that violate the Joomla software license (the GNU GPL) will not be approved. Please read the licensing information on this site for more information."

Now, you and I both know that I don't believe that Jomres violates Joomla's interpretation of the GPL (Jomres is quite capable of standing on it's own two feet, it doesn't need Joomla), but that you (Joomla the org) do, therefore I cannot list Jomres Lite because it shares the site with Jomres proper.

It's also frustrating to know that one of my competitors lists his (paid for, mine's free) GPL product on the same site that he uses to sell his proprietary product, so really it's the arbitrary decision that "jom" is derivative of "Joomla" that's preventing me from listing Jomres Lite on JED.


Oh, the other reason why Jomres Lite wasn't approved was because I supply the component installer, not the component itself. This is because the component itself is > 3.5mb zipped up. As most servers have a max upload limit of 2mb Jomres Lite wouldn't be installable on most servers so it makes more sense to use a web installer to do the downloading and unzipping for you. The argument was that because the component itself wasn't part of the download linked to on JED, it couldn't be listed. Whilst I understand the logic of the rule, it still prevents me from listing Lite.

How's that for ironic? I provide an app that's head and shoulders above the rest but integral to it's power is it's size and because I take the sensible approach and make it quick and easy to install via a web download, it can't be listed.

For all the good that marketing does, there's no beating being listed on JED. Not being listed makes people think that there is something dodgy about the product, no matter what I do.

Frustrating is not the word. I've done the hard work, created an app that's extremely good at what it does and released it as GPL, jumped through the hoops and I still can't get it listed.
brad wrote:Also, as I remember it, you removed your product from JED yourself initially. Now it's not listed due to your products license I think.. I could be wrong though.
The product is still on JED, but it's not published. I haven't removed it. I removed Jombok because it hadn't been updated to J1.5.
brad wrote:Have you read the latest blog on comments regarding JRD enhanced listings?
Last time I read up on JRD it stated that you need to release your code as GPL (or license it, even if it's not released/distributed). As, well, I don't, I hardly qualify. A quick read of the enhanced listings post did nothing to change my understanding of that, but if I missed it I'm happy to be pointed in the right direction.


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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by Vimes » Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:03 pm

p9939068 wrote:So, if my website sells non-GPL software, but I provide Joomla related services, and my domain does not include joomla-related words, and I do not display Joomla's logo on my site, can I still list on JRD?
If you look at the JRD approval checklist http://resources.joomla.org/approval-checklist.html you'll see item 7:

"Beginning March 1st 2009, any Joomla! sites that distribute extensions, modules, and/or plugins either commercially or not commercially must have ALL extensions licensed under the GNU GPL to be accepted in the JRD. If you have a site that co-mingles GPL and non-GPL software licenses on your distributed extensions as they pertain to Joomla you will be denied."

So, I'd take that as a definitive No.
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by severdia » Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:23 pm

Vimes wrote: ... therefore I cannot list Jomres Lite because it shares the site with Jomres proper.
Not so. For example:

http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions ... views/9070

This is a great way for extension developers that currently use a proprietary license to "test the GPL waters," so to speak.
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by Vimes » Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:36 pm

severdia wrote:
Vimes wrote: ... therefore I cannot list Jomres Lite because it shares the site with Jomres proper.
Not so.
Did you read the direct quote I posted that is on the domain registration form?

"Domains distributing extensions that violate the Joomla software license (the GNU GPL) will not be approved. Please read the licensing information on this site for more information."
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Re: Joomla heroes of the month Joomla - core VIP

Post by severdia » Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:57 pm

The domain registration guidelines are different than the JED guidelines. One doesn't necessarily require the other.
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