Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Relax and enjoy The Lounge. For all Non-Joomla! topics or ones that don't fit anywhere else. Normal forum rules apply.
Locked
Asphyx
Joomla! Hero
Joomla! Hero
Posts: 2454
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:03 pm

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by Asphyx » Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:19 pm

first my apologies to the Mods for taking this so totally off topic!

Not like we don't have enough J! vs Drup threads to go around...LOL

Personally IMO if someone really wants to know the difference between the two or which is better then they should run both and see which one they like better! Both are FREE BEER releases and can be tired out with no cost connected but the time invested to install and tinker with them. No one can tell you what is best for you better than you yourself can...
So I tend to find these comparative "VS" threads a waste of space unless we are going to do a head to head technical comparison of how each does something.

Thanks to Newart for reminding us about the roadmap that has already been planned for Joomla!
I did not know that ACL was going to be the next major addition in the roadmap after the new foundational API release has been finalized.
I do believe ACL is much more vital than categorization at this point in time.
Especially when you consider you need to know how the ACL system will operate before you go and redesign the routines that will have to interface with it to make the finer tunes that people want in their ACL.

 
User avatar
newart
Joomla! Virtuoso
Joomla! Virtuoso
Posts: 3177
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:06 am
Location: Solar system - Earth - European Union

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by newart » Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:18 am

About ACL there is a short last note in this article http://www.joomla.org/component/option, ... 105/p,349/ but take note that all is still in discussion...
former Q&T WorkGroup Joomla member - Italian Translation Team Member

wutangah
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 12:26 am
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:

Experience from a non-programmer, non-developer, non-designer

Post by wutangah » Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:04 am

Turnkey Solution + Great Support Community = Growth

I have learned in the business of selling expensive equipment ($100,000 and upwards) that if its not simple and support is poor, the customer will search for another way to meet their objective (going to a competitor). There have been times I couldn't sell my company's product because our solution was poorly developed.

We had a consultant come in and since then, the no-sale months have disappeared! The consultant told us that our product needed to be turnkey (out of the box, ready to go) and support must be #1 (even if it meant answering a phone call during my wife being in labor! glad that did not happen). So we set out to modify our existing equipment, hired technical writers to convert technical jargon into tactfully presented information and consulted with copywriters to tell our customers our product is very easy to operate and expand its features when needed. Sales rose and I got profit sharing checks coming every month since I left the company to be a "web-preneur." Which leads to why Joomla is great for beginners!

This is what I like about Joomla.

1) A Tactful Introduction to CMS - Intuitive interface and a support group to help me define functions and solve problems.
2) Plug-in and Go - I don't need a Bachelors Degree to make a website.
3) Expansion - The freedom to add features in a couple of clicks.
4) Documentation - When nobody has answers, the documentation is there.
5) Socially Adept Developers and Enthusiasts - The ability to covert technical Jargon into language beginners can understand.

All the elements for a non-programmer, non-developer, non-designer are in Joomla to start getting involved into the web landscape.

User avatar
candihot
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:32 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by candihot » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:05 am

News from the "field"...
I've tried both. I like both. Drupal did seem to have much more compatibility with my needs, plus I found it slightly more flexible insofar as theming and design.
J however is extremely easy to work with. For those who are not comfortable with getting your hands "dirty" with playing in the code area, I don't recommend Drup. I got hacked once (my first Joomla site) and this almost made me run and leave, but I was not the only one hacked and the support team here resolved the problem quickly.
My question now is whether either J! or Drup are for me considering my site is basic. I don't allow users to alter content, so I'm wondering if this leaves my site open to potential hacking.
P.S. my site is just a book, movie review site. Users cannot change anything. They can use the form, search links, search content and that's it.  Are J! and Drup overkill for my needs?
Thanks
Making the Internet a Happier Place

User avatar
Jenny
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion
Posts: 6237
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by Jenny » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:28 pm

Whether either one of those is overkill or not in your situation would depend on how often you update content and how easily you want to be able to do it.

If you add a lot of content consistently, some sort of CMS is most likely what you need. 
Co-author of the Official Joomla! Book http://officialjoomlabook.com
Marpo Multimedia http://marpomultimedia.com

SiteWolf
Joomla! Fledgling
Joomla! Fledgling
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:50 pm

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by SiteWolf » Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:38 pm

I've read a good deal of this thread and have thoroughly appreciated much of what's been said....and I understand how each situation can be quite different.

With that said here's my situation:

I'm a somewhat versed designer...not a developer. I have a need to be able to create multiple sites that are similar. Each would include a blog, each would have additional areas, each would have need to have content updated by people who may be complete newbies to anything really web related. In other words, while I would be willing to learn the more technical side of things, that wouldn't be the case for many of the people who would ultimately be actually using many of the sites created.

Is that enough of an explanation of what I'm needing to do for you to give me a reason to lean towards one CMS over another?

User avatar
defeedme
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:24 pm
Location: Palm Beach

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by defeedme » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:45 pm

you need to be a decent programmer / coder to use drupal. that is the bottom line.

jango
Joomla! Fledgling
Joomla! Fledgling
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:34 am

joomla or drupal?

Post by jango » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:44 am

Ok, I guess maybe its a stupid question to ask in a Joomla forum but anyway...

I'm going to start a big multi-language site and I would like to hear opinions regarding the differences between the two systems, advantages/disadvantages of each etc.

thanks in advance,
Jango

[MOD note: e-mail address removed. Please keep the discussion here in this forum so that other users can benefit from it]
Last edited by pe7er on Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
pe7er
Joomla! Master
Joomla! Master
Posts: 22738
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:55 pm
Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands
Contact:

Re: joomla or drupal?

Post by pe7er » Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:43 am

[MOD note: moving & merging with existing thread in The Lounge]
Kind Regards,
Peter Martin, Global Moderator
https://db8.nl - Joomla specialist, Nijmegen, Nederland
Co-developer of d2 Content https://data2site.com/joomla-extensions/d2-content

User avatar
lobos
Joomla! Explorer
Joomla! Explorer
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: Sao Paulo, Brasil
Contact:

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by lobos » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:52 pm

Interesting thread,

As a developer I have been gaining lots of insight into OpenSource CMS over the past 6 years or so. For me I have found that each of them have there strengths and weaknesses. I have actually worked with most of the popular ones, I have extended them, themed them and even enhanced the core of some of them.

Even after all this I am still not in a position to be able to recommend one over another. Each has it strong points, for example Postnuke for me has always offered a superior api architecture yet it has lacked 3rd party support / userbase. Joomla has lots of extensions and users yet can be tricky to extend.

The one thing that I sometimes find a little discouraging is the fact that most OSS CMS are based on old code, usually a simple script that has been hacked and hacked until all of a sudden it gets called a framework. Such a mishmash of scripts have no place being called a framework in my opinion. And that is my opinion and just that, others have different views and all are to be respected for such.

A framework in my opinion should be just that, a framework, not a CMS, not a web application - once the framework becomes intermingled with functionality the pure essence of the framework is lost. This is of no import to most, but for me the framework is a passion as I want to create a perfect framework :)

-Lobos 
Fish n' Chips

User avatar
pixelsoul
Joomla! Explorer
Joomla! Explorer
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:27 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by pixelsoul » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:14 pm

lobos wrote:I want to create a perfect framework :)
Luckily all frameworks has there strong and weak points also  ;D
Go and visit my site you know you want to ^_^
http://www.mech7.net

User avatar
newart
Joomla! Virtuoso
Joomla! Virtuoso
Posts: 3177
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:06 am
Location: Solar system - Earth - European Union

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by newart » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:23 am

pixelsoul wrote:
lobos wrote:I want to create a perfect framework :)
Luckily all frameworks has there strong and weak points also  ;D
wise man poster  8)
former Q&T WorkGroup Joomla member - Italian Translation Team Member

recordbreaker
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:57 am

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by recordbreaker » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:47 pm

lobos wrote: A framework in my opinion should be just that, a framework, not a CMS, not a web application - once the framework becomes intermingled with functionality the pure essence of the framework is lost. This is of no import to most, but for me the framework is a passion as I want to create a perfect framework :)
You make a good point, the underlying framework should not be overlooked.  AFAIK Joomla 1.5 is using an MVC design pattern but version 1.0.x doesn't seem to be as disciplined in that regard.  Although it does separate logic from presentation (page.php vs page.html.php)

I read that Mambo is going to be using CakePHP as the core.  So basically, I'm thinking that as long as MVC is being used by the CMS, that's the most important part of the underlying framework.  Or am I missing something that you need a framework to do?  database abstraction? extensive libraries?

Can any Joomla coding gurus comment on the status of the framework and design patterns within different releases of Joomla?  And how about MVC within Drupal?  Does Drupal do anything to encourage an MVC design pattern?

Also, is there a reason why Joomla is not using CakePHP as the core, and Mambo is? 

Lastly, and this is perhaps going beyond the scope of this thread : 

Is it possible to have a 'perfect' PHP framework, and then use that framework to power different CMS solutions built for different requirements ('easy for users' vs 'good for coders' vs 'community sites' etc..).  Is that a direction that Joomla is interested in following?  It confuses me why CakePHP is good enough for Mambo, yet Joomla seems to want to do it their own way?  Why?

AmyStephen
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion
Posts: 7056
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by AmyStephen » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:55 pm

recordbreaker wrote: So use typo3

who forced you to use Joomla in the first place? 

Regarding 1.5, I like that you guys are going with an MVC design pattern.  But I noticed that Mambo decided to use an existing MVC framework, CakePHP.

Can anyone "in the know" comment on why Joomla is not using CakePHP, and why Mambo is using it?  CakePHP looks like a great framework.  So why try to re-invent the MVC wheel for Joomla 1.5?

Do you feel that CakePHP did something wrong?  Or do you think it will not be around in a few years?  Seems like Mambo was smart to take advantage of the support around CakePHP, and I wonder why Joomla would decide to ignore it, and build a custom MVC framework into the CMS. 

I would really like to know what the deciding factors were.  Cause I love CakePHP but I also love Joomla... Does this mean I should be using Mambo?
recordbreaker wrote:
lobos wrote: A framework in my opinion should be just that, a framework, not a CMS, not a web application - once the framework becomes intermingled with functionality the pure essence of the framework is lost. This is of no import to most, but for me the framework is a passion as I want to create a perfect framework :)
You make a good point, the underlying framework should not be overlooked.  AFAIK Joomla 1.5 is using an MVC design pattern but version 1.0.x doesn't seem to be as disciplined in that regard.  Although it does separate logic from presentation (page.php vs page.html.php)

I read that Mambo is going to be using CakePHP as the core.  So basically, I'm thinking that as long as MVC is being used by the CMS, that's the most important part of the underlying framework.  Or am I missing something that you need a framework to do?  database abstraction? extensive libraries?

Can any Joomla coding gurus comment on the status of the framework and design patterns within different releases of Joomla?  And how about MVC within Drupal?  Does Drupal do anything to encourage an MVC design pattern?

Also, is there a reason why Joomla is not using CakePHP as the core, and Mambo is? 

Lastly, and this is perhaps going beyond the scope of this thread : 

Is it possible to have a 'perfect' PHP framework, and then use that framework to power different CMS solutions built for different requirements ('easy for users' vs 'good for coders' vs 'community sites' etc..).  Is that a direction that Joomla is interested in following?  It confuses me why CakePHP is good enough for Mambo, yet Joomla seems to want to do it their own way?  Why?
Why both threads, RecordBreaker?  :P

The first one was a ridiculous thread over three months old. Was there a real need to reopen it? Why challenge people to criticize CakePHP by asking what they did "wrong?" Did CakePHP really have to do something wrong for Joomla! to have a legitimate reason to build their own framework? More importantly, does Joomla! have to have a good reason to build their own framework? Would the response "because the developers wanted too" be acceptable considering they are not paid for this work they then offer the world free, as in liberty, and free, as in beer?

And, how does Mambo's recent choice to use the CakePHP framework have any bearing here? Don't you think that might be a little bit snarky to make those comparisons here and ask others to weigh in with their opinion? Are you trying to stir things up?

If you like CakePHP and Mambo, use it when it's available. CakePHP is, indeed, a cool MVC application framework and it can be used with tons of CMSs, already - Drupal and Joomla!, included. (Hint: Google Jake and Drake). It sounds like it will eventually be available for Mambo, as well. Super! What could be better than that?

Mambo developers are free to make their own choices. Joomla! developers are free to make their own choices. Drupal developers are free to make their own choices. CakePHP developers are free to make their own choices.

Maybe we should just celebrate the rich array of choices made *freely* available to us by these developers instead of pitting one open source solution against the other.

recordbreaker
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:57 am

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by recordbreaker » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:24 pm

Why both threads, RecordBreaker?  :P

The first one was a ridiculous thread over three months old. Was there a real need to reopen it? Why challenge people to criticize CakePHP by asking what they did "wrong?" Did CakePHP really have to do something wrong for Joomla! to have a legitimate reason to build their own framework? More importantly, does Joomla! have to have a good reason to build their own framework? Would the response "because the developers wanted too" be acceptable considering they are not paid for this work they then offer the world free, as in liberty, and free, as in beer?

And, how does Mambo's recent choice to use the CakePHP framework have any bearing here? Don't you think that might be a little bit snarky to make those comparisons here and ask others to weigh in with their opinion? Are you trying to stir things up?

If you like CakePHP and Mambo, use it when it's available. CakePHP is, indeed, a cool MVC application framework and it can be used with tons of CMSs, already - Drupal and Joomla!, included. (Hint: Google Jake and Drake). It sounds like it will eventually be available for Mambo, as well. Super! What could be better than that?

Mambo developers are free to make their own choices. Joomla! developers are free to make their own choices. Drupal developers are free to make their own choices. CakePHP developers are free to make their own choices.

Maybe we should just celebrate the rich array of choices made *freely* available to us by these developers instead of pitting one open source solution against the other.
[/quote]

I'm new here, sorry if I'm not following the rules.  I'll try to be more careful next time.

I'm just looking for education myself, not trying to start a fight.  I'm interested in knowing why CakePHP is being used for the core of Mambo, and why Joomla is not using it.  Joomla forked from Mambo, and I'm wondering if this is was related in any way.

And also, if CakePHP is getting a lot of open source support, doesn't ignoring that support base seem to pit Joomla against at least that part of the community?  It's just a question...  since Mambo has some relation to Joomla, and since they both are going the MVC route, it seems to be a logical question to ask.  Why did Mambo choose CakePHP over creating their own framework?  Why did Joomla create their own instead of using CakePHP?  Is this a taboo subject or something?  ???

I'm sure that Joomla's MVC is fantastic, and I look forward to working with it.  But I also like the idea of different apps sharing a common open framework.  It just seems like an elegant way to go.  I'm sure there are reasons for not using CakePHP, and those reasons are what I'm curious to be informed about.

If I'm way off base with this question, or am posting to the wrong forum, I'm sorry.  But I never intended any disrespect to the developers.  I hold them in the highest esteem for their incredible work.  I think your wrong to assume I'm implying that Joomla developers are not free to make their own choices.  Did I say they owe me anything?  NO!  I'm just curious about MVC in general, and it's different implementations.  I'd like to hear some opinions on pros and cons, in relation to Joomla and other PHP based CMS.

User avatar
ianmac
Joomla! Virtuoso
Joomla! Virtuoso
Posts: 4784
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:01 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by ianmac » Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:39 pm

recordbreaker wrote:
I'm new here, sorry if I'm not following the rules.  I'll try to be more careful next time.

I'm just looking for education myself, not trying to start a fight.  I'm interested in knowing why CakePHP is being used for the core of Mambo, and why Joomla is not using it.  Joomla forked from Mambo, and I'm wondering if this is was related in any way.

And also, if CakePHP is getting a lot of open source support, doesn't ignoring that support base seem to pit Joomla against at least that part of the community?  It's just a question...  since Mambo has some relation to Joomla, and since they both are going the MVC route, it seems to be a logical question to ask.  Why did Mambo choose CakePHP over creating their own framework?  Why did Joomla create their own instead of using CakePHP?  Is this a taboo subject or something?  ???

I'm sure that Joomla's MVC is fantastic, and I look forward to working with it.  But I also like the idea of different apps sharing a common open framework.  It just seems like an elegant way to go.  I'm sure there are reasons for not using CakePHP, and those reasons are what I'm curious to be informed about.

If I'm way off base with this question, or am posting to the wrong forum, I'm sorry.  But I never intended any disrespect to the developers.  I hold them in the highest esteem for their incredible work.  I think your wrong to assume I'm implying that Joomla developers are not free to make their own choices.  Did I say they owe me anything?  NO!  I'm just curious about MVC in general, and it's different implementations.  I'd like to hear some opinions on pros and cons, in relation to Joomla and other PHP based CMS.
Well, I wouldn't say it is a taboo question...  it can come across though as being critical to ask why a certain technology was or was not chosen.  i.e. if you ask the question "Why did you do it that way?"  this could mean many many different things...  it could be inquisitiveness, which is what you claim it to be, and I will answer based on that in a sec.  It could also be a "Why did you do it THAT way?" as in, how could you be so foolish?  This is one of the perils of electronic communication.  We could not see the expression on your face!

In addition, you need to be careful when asking comparison questions between open source projects.  This can easily be misread as, isn't X project better than you guys?  We are not around for a competition.  We have devs who contribute not only here but who submit patches to other OS CMSs as well.  That is the cool thing about open source.  I'm still not sure as a community we're at a place where we can openly discuss differences without getting into competition.  Drupal does do some really neat things that we don't do yet.  We also do some neat stuff that Drupal hasn't gotten to yet.  That's cool.

So on with my answer...

Well, I'm not on the dev working group, so I can't answer the question as to why exactly CakePHP was not used.  I will say that I highly doubt it has anything to do with our history in terms of coming from Mambo.  I can say fairly confidently that I believe truth when I say that Joomla! framework decision was made well before Mambo made the decision to use Cake.

My guess is that Joomla! decided to create its own framework because there were specific requirements that it had or there were custom ways it wanted to operate that just didn't line up with the way that CakePHP worked.  The Joomla! framework and the MVC component of it integrate really well with the Joomla! application (notice that the application and the framework will eventually be two separate things - I recently built my first application outside of the CMS - neat stuff, but anyway...)

From what I've heard, Drupal in general is more functional oriented in its code rather than object oriented, so I don't believe that Drupal uses CMS atm, though I could easily be wrong, as that statement is based on hearsay.

Why did Mambo choose Cake instead of their own framework?  I really don't know...  Maybe they didn't have enough devs, maybe they saw no reason not to, could be one of many reasons, and not being an active member of the mambo community, I couldn't begin to guess.

I guess I'll leave with this - Joomla! is software.  In the software world, there are many many ways to skin a cat.  There are countless different design philosophies, design patterns, ways of doing things.  Some are chosen based on various strengths and weaknesses that make them better or worse suited for a particular task.  Some come down to personal preference.  To bring in a car analogy...  you will see many cars designed differently.  With different styling, with different conventions.  With different modes of operation.  Many come down to personal choice.  Some things come down to target market.

They're just different.

As Amy mentioned, it is possible to use Cake in Joomla! already and in Drupal already, so those who are familiar with that framework can go nuts with it!

To answer your question about framework for 1.0 and 1.5, 1.0 is in generally pretty messy and undisciplined.  Joomla! 1.0 came out of something that was a very early rendition of the CMS, from what I understand.  Over time the definition of what a CMS is has changed, and so bits and pieces have been kludged into the system to add this functionality.  Joomla! 1.5 framework is in many ways a fresh start.  A lot of refactoring has been done and great efforts have been taken to ensure that things are designed properly and that everything follows a consistent, flexible architecture.  Is it the best way to do things?  That isn't that valid of a question, because there may be other ways to do it that are equally good, but are just different.

Hope I haven't rambled too much, and though I don't think I've answered your question in terms of architectural details, it might provide an overview.

Ian

User avatar
newart
Joomla! Virtuoso
Joomla! Virtuoso
Posts: 3177
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:06 am
Location: Solar system - Earth - European Union

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by newart » Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:11 am

I wonder in that topic what never said  :) A conclusion, a simple and clear one is, our starting 1.5 framework has a great future...
former Q&T WorkGroup Joomla member - Italian Translation Team Member

arlen
Joomla! Enthusiast
Joomla! Enthusiast
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:01 pm

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by arlen » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:16 pm

ianmac wrote: In addition, you need to be careful when asking comparison questions between open source projects.  This can easily be misread as, isn't X project better than you guys?
I hear that. I wish people would stop looking for hidden agendas behind simple questions, but there are enough trolls about that I suppose it's warranted. Let's face it, the Joomla/Mambo fork wasn't exactly the friendliest one in the world.
ianmac wrote: From what I've heard, Drupal in general is more functional oriented in its code rather than object oriented, so I don't believe that Drupal uses CMS atm, though I could easily be wrong, as that statement is based on hearsay.
In a nutshell, Drupal is useful for building sites you don't want the user to mess with. Joomla leads almost inevitably to users wanting more access. Drupal's security model is more finely grained that Joomla, in that you grant access, even admin access, by node (module) rather than having to give broad access. You can give a single user full control over what in Joomla would be a content category, without letting them do anything else. You can't do that in Joomla. Neither one handles workflow very well, though I suppose Drupal might be fractionally better at it. Joomla is easier for non-programmers to extend, but Drupal's catching up quickly in that regard.

Bottom line? There's not a whole lot to choose between them. And WordPress is the dark horse coming up on the outside of both of them.
ianmac wrote: As Amy mentioned, it is possible to use Cake in Joomla! already and in Drupal already, so those who are familiar with that framework can go nuts with it!
Took a look at it because frankly I'm in love with Rails as a framework. Jake seems quite a bit rough around the edges and understaffed. May give it a try, though, considering how many overrides I need to write to create a decent Joomla template. I'm almost rewriting the entire output anyway. ;) (Yes, I know exactly what I want for output, and Joomla doesn't give it to me without a fight. Neither does Drupal, before you ask.)
ianmac wrote: To answer your question about framework for 1.0 and 1.5, 1.0 is in generally pretty messy and undisciplined.  Joomla! 1.0 came out of something that was a very early rendition of the CMS, from what I understand.
Looked a bit to an outsider as a Nuke derivative, in fact.
ianmac wrote: Joomla! 1.5 framework is in many ways a fresh start.  A lot of refactoring has been done and great efforts have been taken to ensure that things are designed properly and that everything follows a consistent, flexible architecture.  Is it the best way to do things?  That isn't that valid of a question, because there may be other ways to do it that are equally good, but are just different.
The real reason to ask a question like that goes back to the Linus Torvalds comment "with enough eyes, all bugs are shallow." A decision to reinvent the wheel, no matter how elegant the new wheel will be, necessitates more work and allows the opportunity for more bugs. Given that, I'd like to see a better reason than "because we wanted to." Yes, the dev team certainly has the right to use that for a reason; I'm not disputing that. And I equally have the right to feel a bit unsettled if that turns out to be the only, or even the major, reason to decline the assistance of more eyes in finding/fixing/avoiding bugs and security issues.

(As a side issue from another post, I'm really getting tired of "They're doing it for free!" as a justification or defense for any/every decision. Yes, they are doing it for free, indisputably, but presumably they're also doing it in order to produce a functional, reliable product that satisfies its users, and having design and coding decisions questioned is an essential part of that process. I'm sure if you asked any of the dev team, they'd agree wholeheartedly with that. I've done some of my best work after someone asked "Why did you do it that way?" The question gave me permission to think "outside the box," to restate the problem in different terms and find a better solution, and not always the one the asker had in mind.)

User avatar
newart
Joomla! Virtuoso
Joomla! Virtuoso
Posts: 3177
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:06 am
Location: Solar system - Earth - European Union

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by newart » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:23 pm

for what discussed I'd like to share with you one of may last topic... please have a glimpse on http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,213151.0.html and I think you'll find other interesting issues... ;)
former Q&T WorkGroup Joomla member - Italian Translation Team Member

AmyStephen
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion
Posts: 7056
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by AmyStephen » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:36 pm

Arlen -

Are you growing tired of hearing that volunteers are able to volunteer for things they want to do? What do you do for Joomla!? Is it better to do nothing for the community than it is to contribute in an area of interest?

It's not that your comments in this, and your last post, contain no good ideas. It's just that it would be more helpful if we were able to take these insights and convert them into machine readable code or user's guides or responses to community member's forum questions where it would have real value. Pointing out problems is easy - fixing them, well, that's where real commitment is required.

In the end, even imperfect contributions help others more than no contributions, or worse yet, complaints. Complaints without a willingness to resolve a problem tend to simply discourage contributors. But, if you let your concerns motivate you to help build (and share) a solution, then, that's what ends up really helping Joomla! improve.

I challenge you - pick just one of the problems you have identified in this - or your last post - and solve it. Then, you'll be a hacker and a celebrated member of our community!

Cheers,
Amy

User avatar
ianmac
Joomla! Virtuoso
Joomla! Virtuoso
Posts: 4784
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:01 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by ianmac » Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:28 pm

I think people can be free to suggest/ask/question all they want...  present arguments, whatever...

Please do it respectfully and productively (not saying you haven't, just making a general rule here, because not everybody does).

The dev team is free to reject any and all advice, and if in the end they make a decision 'because they want to', they are free to do that as well.

Ian

arlen
Joomla! Enthusiast
Joomla! Enthusiast
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:01 pm

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by arlen » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:06 pm

AmyStephen wrote: Are you growing tired of hearing that volunteers are able to volunteer for things they want to do?
No, I'm getting tired of that being used to deflect criticism. It's a reason to volunteer. It's not a reason to place those choices above question. If I volunteered to recode Joomla into Ruby, for example, it doesn't mean that someone shouldn't be allowed to ask why, or even tell me there are reasons I shouldn't.
AmyStephen wrote: What do you do for Joomla!?
I design with it. I use it. I fix problems. I solve problems for others. I once wrote a bot, and maintained it until I found someone had written a better one. I could probably come up with more if I dug back through my files, but right now I don't feel like it.

A better point is why should I have to justify my questions to you or anyone else? Either the question/criticism is valid on its own or it isn't. You don't have to be an auto mechanic to know there's something wrong with the car.
AmyStephen wrote: Is it better to do nothing for the community than it is to contribute in an area of interest?
What kind of an absurd dichotomy is that?
AmyStephen wrote: It's not that your comments in this, and your last post, contain no good ideas. It's just that it would be more helpful if we were able to take these insights and convert them into machine readable code or user's guides or responses to community member's forum questions where it would have real value. Pointing out problems is easy - fixing them, well, that's where real commitment is required.
Been there, done that. Wore out the T-shirt. I make those comments in the hope that someone else will do it this time. It looks like that isn't going to happen, though. So I'll have to do it by myself yet again.
AmyStephen wrote: In the end, even imperfect contributions help others more than no contributions, or worse yet, complaints. Complaints without a willingness to resolve a problem tend to simply discourage contributors. But, if you let your concerns motivate you to help build (and share) a solution, then, that's what ends up really helping Joomla! improve.
You know, your continuous to claim I do nothing is starting to wear thin. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, you know.
AmyStephen wrote: I challenge you - pick just one of the problems you have identified in this - or your last post - and solve it. Then, you'll be a hacker and a celebrated member of our community!
I've solved two just this past week. Of course, they're problems that other people have solved, too (at least two that I'm aware of, probably many more that I'm not aware of). Problems we shouldn't have had to solve for ourselves. I haven't come running to publish because my ego isn't so large as to automatically assume mine is better than theirs. I published my first shareware back in the mid-80's. I've long ago gotten past publishing for publishing's sake. I need a better reason these days. I don't need anyone to celebrate me. I just need to get the work done.

And Ian, I agree with you. I don't think I've crossed that line. "Because they want to" is indeed sufficient reason for them to do it. just not one that I like all that much. But then I don't believe I *have* to like it. Like I said, I'd feel more comfortable if there was more to it than that, but if that's all there is, that's all there is.

arlen
Joomla! Enthusiast
Joomla! Enthusiast
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:01 pm

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by arlen » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:48 pm

newart wrote: for what discussed I'd like to share with you one of may last topic... please have a glimpse on http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,213151.0.html and I think you'll find other interesting issues... ;)
Perfect, Newart. Hits my question right on the nailhead. There's more behind it than "because they want to." It proves some thought, and even if you don't agree with all the points (not singling out anything at the moment, got to think it farther through) it's encouraging to know there were some technical reasons behind it. (I'd suspected the Backwards compatibility thing, for example, especially after looking at Jake, but since 1.5 breaks so many things I wasn't sure if it was really a consideration.) Thanks for the pointer.

BTW, if anyone's really keeping score between the two CMS, I'd give them both a C- grade, but that's not on a curve, as that's the highest grade I'd hand out to any CMS I've ever looked at. The whole field is still kind of dismal. Some progress has been made since http://veen.com/jeff/archives/000622.html was written (2004) but not as much as anyone would like. Too many of those comments are still true, at least in part. Between the two, I'm more happy with the way Joomla is going than Drupal.

Now if they'd just ditch PHP for a *real* language.....

(Note to the Humor-impaired: That was a joke, and only a joke. Had it been a real criticism you would have been told to turn to a specific language for further instructions.)

User avatar
Jenny
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion
Posts: 6237
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by Jenny » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:00 pm

If you feel that CMSes haven't evolved enough to suit your standards, and that they are "dismal" then perhaps you should dig in and roll up your sleeves and make them less dismal by contributing?

Grading and criticizing something that is created freely by others than yourself is easy.  Actually contributing is the hard part.
Co-author of the Official Joomla! Book http://officialjoomlabook.com
Marpo Multimedia http://marpomultimedia.com

User avatar
newart
Joomla! Virtuoso
Joomla! Virtuoso
Posts: 3177
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:06 am
Location: Solar system - Earth - European Union

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by newart » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:23 pm

In short, we can discuss hours and hours but a friend of mine said to me "I don't understand nothing but if joomla has a lot of members, a lot of extensions, a lot of... more and more, and for that reason maybe is really a great CMS and great is each member involved in the project".
former Q&T WorkGroup Joomla member - Italian Translation Team Member

AmyStephen
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion
Posts: 7056
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by AmyStephen » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:20 am

arlen wrote: (I'd suspected the Backwards compatibility thing, for example, especially after looking at Jake, but since 1.5 breaks so many things I wasn't sure if it was really a consideration.)
I might end up regretting asking this, but, what does Jake have to do with Joomla! v 1.5 backwards compatibility?

Thanks!
Amy :)

User avatar
ianmac
Joomla! Virtuoso
Joomla! Virtuoso
Posts: 4784
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:01 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by ianmac » Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:21 am

AmyStephen wrote:
arlen wrote: (I'd suspected the Backwards compatibility thing, for example, especially after looking at Jake, but since 1.5 breaks so many things I wasn't sure if it was really a consideration.)
I might end up regretting asking this, but, what does Jake have to do with Joomla! v 1.5 backwards compatibility?

Thanks!
Amy :)
What I understood he was saying (and I could be wrong), is that after looking at the Jake framework, and how different it was from 1.0, if Cake had been chosen it would have broken a lot of backward compatibility.

Ian

arlen
Joomla! Enthusiast
Joomla! Enthusiast
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:01 pm

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by arlen » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:10 pm

newart wrote: In short, we can discuss hours and hours but a friend of mine said to me "I don't understand nothing but if joomla has a lot of members, a lot of extensions, a lot of... more and more, and for that reason maybe is really a great CMS and great is each member involved in the project".
While I'd stop short of "great" I'd certainly go along with "one of the best". Unfortunately, all that attitude seems to get me around here is attacked. Thanks for understanding.

AmyStephen
Joomla! Champion
Joomla! Champion
Posts: 7056
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by AmyStephen » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:28 pm

ianmac wrote:
AmyStephen wrote:
arlen wrote: (I'd suspected the Backwards compatibility thing, for example, especially after looking at Jake, but since 1.5 breaks so many things I wasn't sure if it was really a consideration.)
I might end up regretting asking this, but, what does Jake have to do with Joomla! v 1.5 backwards compatibility?

Thanks!
Amy :)
What I understood he was saying (and I could be wrong), is that after looking at the Jake framework, and how different it was from 1.0, if Cake had been chosen it would have broken a lot of backward compatibility.

Ian
Jake runs with both Joomla! 1.0.x and Joomla! 1.5. Jake is the interface that connects Joomla! with Cake.

Thanks!
Amy :)

arlen
Joomla! Enthusiast
Joomla! Enthusiast
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:01 pm

Re: Drupal Vs Joomla (where Joomla Fails and Major Drawbacks: A discussion )

Post by arlen » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:35 pm

ianmac wrote:
AmyStephen wrote:
arlen wrote: (I'd suspected the Backwards compatibility thing, for example, especially after looking at Jake, but since 1.5 breaks so many things I wasn't sure if it was really a consideration.)
I might end up regretting asking this, but, what does Jake have to do with Joomla! v 1.5 backwards compatibility?
What I understood he was saying (and I could be wrong), is that after looking at the Jake framework, and how different it was from 1.0, if Cake had been chosen it would have broken a lot of backward compatibility.
Exactly. Taking a look at Jake and the some of the rough edges there made me suspect that turning the skeletal structure of Joomla into a Cake derivative would have broken far more things than the 1.5 version does, and would probably have taken longer.

Given that the old templating system was decrepit and had to go, and that a Model-View-Controller approach was the right approach (I firmly hold both opinions, and can defend them if necessary, but this thread is not the place for that so I'll not do it and we'll just take these as givens for the purpose of the discussion) the choice was to either rebuild Joomla to fit an existing MVC framework, or build your own MVC framework. I suspected the latter was easier, but didn't have any data to support the idea. The thread Newart pointed me to told me the dev team pretty much saw it the same way, and after evaluating the options, decided to build their own framework.

I'd have to do the analysis myself before I could be sure (I don't like to simply accept someone else's opinion without verification, I'm funny that way) but the discussion on that thread involving the dev team encourages me to believe my suspicion was correct.

The whole point of the reservations I expressed earlier was that I don't trust decisions made simply on personal preference, unless there truly is not enough actual difference between the options to be significant. The thread Newart pointed me to indicated there was more to the decision than simply personal preference, therefore I'm more inclined to trust it.

Now, tell me, Amy: Did you regret asking it?
Last edited by arlen on Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 

Locked

Return to “The Lounge”