Wordpress Vs. Joomla

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TheLogo-Mat
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Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by TheLogo-Mat » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:56 pm

I am considering starting a new (secondary) website similar to my existing site: http://thelogo-mat.com using Wordpress. Can someone please enlighten me on why Joomla is better than Wordpress? I have no real complaints about Joomla after using is for a few years now- but I'd like to know what all of the fuss is over Wordpress.
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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by rand486 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:09 pm

I swear this question comes up daily here :P

In my opinion, Wordpress does a great job... with blogs. Joomla, on the other hand, isn't necessarily geared FOR blogs, but does a great job of a general site (Company website, Events, Advertising, etc).

Joomla is highly extendable, and in my opinion, the documentation and community is much more helpful.

Opinions will vary, and you're asking on a Joomla forum, of course, so there will be inherent bias.

My favourite example is of nails and screws. Both will hold a piece of lumber up but sometimes one is more appropriate than the other.

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by TheLogo-Mat » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:12 pm

Thanks for the input!
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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by rand486 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:20 pm

I give the same answer for PC vs Mac, btw :P "The right tool for the right job"

I'm a very neutral person.
http://theinfosphere.org/Neutral_People#Quotes

Edit: (No affiliation with the above site, btw - I was just reminded of the episode by my own comment)

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by Oaksong » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:15 pm

OK... clearly people here haven't done much dev work with wordpress.

Wordpress is vastly superior in (almost) every way to Joomla.

Out of the box, it is easier and quicker to get going. It gives you WAY more flexibility with regards to design and layout. The plugins and widgets tend to be much more robust and often FREE.

The *Only* thing that joomla does well that wordpress doesn't is the ability to customize which modules/widgets are on which pages on a page by page basis.... and a plugin for wordpress solves that.

Development times for any degree of truly custom work will be half or less with wordpress, due to the tremendous amount of boilerplate code joomla needs.

Seriously, go look at the custom 'hello world' component tutorial for 1.7. It is 15 pages long and something like 30 files. That is retarded.

Doing something similar in wordpress could be as little as 5 lines of code in 2 files (functions.php and a template file).

Building a custom website with wordpress allows you to easily create a custom backend for for clients because of wordpress's VASTLY superior content model.

For instance, have a client with a baseball team? Create a custom post type called 'players' with custom metadata for their stats. You can do this with code or a plugin that creates a nice GUI for the client (or you) to do it that way. Then the client can just click 'new player' and fill in stats and the theme can populate the relevant pages automatically.

Compare that to having to write a huge custom component, custom modules (like a featured player module or something), etc. TRIVIAL in wordpress. Serious work in Joomla.

And it really can't be understanded the absurd design restrictions that Joomla puts on you with the weird content/module/component thing. I often get designs that might have multiple content regions... now I have to either pick one to be the component, build modules and create an empty component (which makes no sense on all sorts of levels), etc.

For instance, I had a client that needed special info about their products. Instead of user friendly custom fields like a space for them to fill in 'model number', which I could add with a gui or like 5 lines of code.... I would have to write custom modules, custom plugins, or try to build something out with K2 or zoo. And then the client is expected to manage all this???

Use wordpress, or use Drupal. Both are worlds beyond Joomla. Save yourself the headache! escape while you still can!

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by TheLogo-Mat » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:24 pm

Much appreciated info from what I assumed would be a biased forum. The one difficult part for me in Joomla is messing with/editing CSS, which I had to do many times to get this where it's at currently: http://thelogo-mat.com

Are you saying that adjustments normally made to the CSS of a template in Joomla can be executed more easily via Wordpress?
Thanks!
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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by Oaksong » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:41 pm

Oh yes, MUCH MUCH more easily.

Joomla basically forces HTML on you, that you then have to fight CSS to make look right (if it is even possible).

Wordpress allows you to use whatever HTML you want, and insert whatever content you want into it with simple PHP functions which are well documented (as opposed to Joomla, where everything is half documented and like 2 versions out of date). Many of those functions include options to customize the HTML down to the individual tag, as needed.

If you do design, you know that Joomla uses a common layout and inserts modules/component in the same places EVERY PAGE. Which means that to have different/interesting/cool layouts that fit the specific content being displayed (like a roster of players) you would have to build and manage multiple themes and then carefully assign them to different menu items.

Wordpress uses a cascading theme set that allows you to have as many layouts as you want but have fallbacks as well. Each custom layout can behave exactly as you want it, once again with any custom HTML/content/etc you need.

Managing content is also way better, despite the people saying "oh wordpress is just a blogging system". NO. It is a website building tool that comes with a blogging application built in to show off its (effortlessly extensible) content system.

I went from never using wordpress to building pro websites in a few weeks because of the great documentation and lack of boilerplate. A complete custom build (multiple custom layouts, custom modules, etc) is at most a 2 week project from start to SHIP. That's all the HTML, CSS, PHP, etc.

And it can do crazy things like we built a hall of fame museum that had live search functionality for players, awards, etc, and had a layout that resized itself based on different monitor widths and devices... 2 weeks.

I'm not even sure how I would start trying to build all that in Joomla, but with the (sane) content model, it was rather easy in wordpress.

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by Oaksong » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:45 pm

oh, and yes, I know about template overrides. Welcome to having to re-write all of Joomla's functionality... except you still can't actually add new content types and relations without building entire components.

And if you end up having to re-code all of joomla's built in layouts... it isn't really saving you any time, now is it.

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by rand486 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:04 pm

Oaksong's militant answers make me smile :)

You'll find diehards on both sides of the fence. Again, I choose to stay neutral. I've used both, and have my preferences for both in different cases.

I'm only adding this to point out that a knowledgeable Wordpress user (Oaksong, for example) and a knowledgeable Joomla user are both able to pull off the projects described above very quickly.

What usually holds people back from hopping from one CMS to another is the leap in vocabulary.

Example: Oaksong seems to be mixing up components and modules. Yes, the documentation for a Hello World component is complex. But there's 2 things wrong here:
1) You would NEVER write a component for such a simple function. You'd write a module (which can be done in just about no time!)
2) It's precisely BECAUSE the documentation is so extensive and clear that I speak positively about it.

I could point out further misunderstandings of Joomla's infrastructure, but I'm not here to be defensive. I'm just trying to play Devil's advocate and show you that there's two sides to the story here. Wordpress is also a very popular CMS, and I'm not going to badmouth it. Period.

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by Oaksong » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:25 pm

The problem I had was trying to figure out exactly what Joomla's infrastructure was. But I don't have any confusion about components and modules, I used the hello world example to show just how much unnecessary work there is in storing content in the database and building custom content.

30 files of XML, php, and SQL vs custom fields or using custom types.

I can't say anything positive about the Joomla docs. I'm sure that if you are already immersed in them then they make sense, but lets compare some things.

I often see stuff like
$checked= JHTML::_('grid.id', $i, $row->id );

What does this do? (I (think I) know the answer), but just looking at it... what does this thing do? Something to do with html right?
It gets the value of a checkbox.

Look at the docs for JHTML::_
"Class loader method
Additional arguments may be supplied and are passed to the sub-class. Additional include paths are also able to be specified for third-party use"

Fantastic. Subclass of JHTML? Some other subclass? Which class is it loading? Hrmm... docs do not say. And since I didn't have a clue what '_' is supposed to mean, and grid doesn't actually have anything to do with 'checkbox' or 'form' or anything like that.... it took forever to track down stuff. If not for the name of the variable it would be REALLY opaque. So if you have:
if (JHTML::_('grid.id', $i, $row->id )) {
<stuff>
}

So yes, there is JHTMLGrid with method id. And it talks about row indexes and stuff. Hrmm??? wtf. Are we talking to database tables now and using the JHTML class to format results? It doesn't say clearly.

AND when I do find out where that code goes, I have to learn another interface to the new class method instead of talking directly to JHTML. This is terrible design. OO code is supposed to encapsulate functionality so that I don't have to care what subclasses are loaded.

How about this, JHTML::get_checkbox_value(....); BOOM. Now that code is self documenting, encapsulates, and is way clearer.

Compare to this sort of thing in wordpress:
$posts= get_posts( array('post_type'=>'players', 'numberposts'=>'5') );

Can you guess what that does? EVEN IF YOU HAVE NEVER USED WORDPRESS? Damn straight you probably can. even better, check out the documentation:
http://codex.wordpress.org/Template_Tags/get_posts

A whole lot better than 'class loader method'. Thanks guys. Real helpful there. Not to mention the hordes of things wrong with reaching through one class to talk to another which is a subclass of the first instead of just using some form of inheritance or encapsulation. Maybe there is a good reason to do this sort of weirdness... but it wasn't clear and the docs didn't exactly explain the oddball design decisions.

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by rand486 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:39 pm

Your arguments from a developer standpoint are very well made. There, I totally cede to your points. :) (Again, I was never here to argue)

My only point of difference would be that most Joomla (and Wordpress) users are not developers. When they say they can't handle CSS changes, I assume that means they certainly don't know PHP.

When I refer to documentation, I am also (and mainly) talking about the plain-english documentation on how to do something. It's rare for a question to pop up on these forums that isn't already answered in the Joomla Docs.

And yes, Wordpress also has plenty of plain-english documentation. I cede that as well.

Nails and Screws, friend :)

Again, nails and screws.

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by Oaksong » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:46 pm

Actually, if it is just ease of use Wordpress is still much stronger. As an end user, instead of having to manage 20 different things I can easily code theme options that put everything the user needs in one place.

If you are talking about simple end user, why give them options like module class extensions where they can mess with CSS in the admin backend? Seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by kievbridge » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:27 pm

Both CMS are great enough, and you can make very good site on WP making it as corporate website not as blog. Here is my WP site http://kupitkabel.com.ua/ and Joomla site Linguapedia recently I learned how to edit wordpress sites to make them more similar to regular sites not just blogs and if you see the source code yuo will see the result.
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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by Oaksong » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:38 pm

I agree. Everyone thinks "oh, wordpress is for blogs". No, it is a website development platform with a built in blog engine. It works amazing as a tool to build a truly custom website including front and backend.

For instance, try building http://www.merrellgroup.com in Joomla.

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by TheLogo-Mat » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:22 pm

I finally figured it out! Joomla sites just plain look better than Wordpress sites. I can argue that my site: http://thelogo-mat.com looks better than any of these: http://wordpress.org/showcase
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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by rand486 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:04 pm

Haha you're going to make Oaksong have an aneurysm. The look of a site is up to the designer/developer. You can acheive the same look with either CMS.

Joomla and Wordpress manage content, but both are capable of using HTML and CSS just as proficiently.

I do agree on one thing though, Drupal sites tend to look like Drupal sites, WP usually look like WP sites, and Joomla tends to look like Joomla. That's the fault of the designers though, not the CMS. You can build some very creative stuff if willing. Just depends on implementation, regardless of whether it's a "theme" or a "template".

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by kievbridge » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:25 am

rand486 wrote:I do agree on one thing though, Drupal sites tend to look like Drupal sites, WP usually look like WP sites, and Joomla tends to look like Joomla. That's the fault of the designers though, not the CMS. You can build some very creative stuff if willing. Just depends on implementation, regardless of whether it's a "theme" or a "template".
Agree :) and that's true, you can create some unique design without using ready-made templates and use any of the CMS so that users will probably not recognize the CMS you're using for that. Everything is up to developer. If you know PHP, HTML and CSS you can create smth own without using standard templates and forms.
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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by assur3 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:29 pm

I may be missing something in Oaksong's argument, but I think the respective strengths of WP or Joomla relate almost completely to the framing of the project. I would agree that the HTML and CSS is more directly accessible in WP if your assumed process is page-based custom design where you need more complete control of look and feel at the page level. Joomla, however, seems to win by a wide margin if you frame the project as a business-functional site.

Let's say your goal is to create a professional-looking business directory and tweak the CSS for colors, fonts, etc. I install Joomla 2.5 (half an hour), do the configs, pick a template such as a Warp or Gantry template, and set up the menus (1-2 hours), install Sobi Pro (free) or Mosets Tree, do the configs (one hour), and voila, a beautiful, highly functional business directory site in a half-day.

In the past, I've attempted such things with Wordpress and have found the integration of plugins to be very problematic. Let alone trying to find anything equivalent to Sobi Pro or Mosets tree in the Wordpress plugins directory (on top of which there's no browse capability so it takes hours to find what you need compared to minutes with the JED). Must confess I haven't used the latest version of WP, but I'm curious to know what approach Oaksong or a WP guru would take in such a project. I've found WP very difficult to extend to large-scale functions from past experience.

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by trikcard » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:56 pm

I've been wrestling with this for a while. I'm an entertainer and it seems everyone in my field uses WP. However, I am using Joomla and I am quite happy with it. However, I see that people say that SEO works so much better with WP, so I was debating changing. I use Jcrawler and SH404SEF to do much of my SEO and I've been quite happy with it, however, I am wondering if it could be better with WP.

Also, with WP, most of the templates look like blogs. I understand that you can change them a lot to make them look less like blogs, but it seems Joomla templates look more site like out of the box. Is this correct or am I missing a major WP resource that helps with this.

I made www.Evansmagic.com and I love it, but it is flash. I need to find something to have another site that is non-flash. I've used Joomla for one of my other sites, www.evansflorida.com, but I am trying to decide whether it would be worth it to relearn WP to make the switch.

I have a background of using GUI programs like Flash and Dreamweaver so the coding thing still gives me fits.

Any thoughts?

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by huntws » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:27 pm

Well it's pretty simple. If your a graphic designer or a wan to be web developer, use Wordpress because it makes simple sites simple.

If you are a programmer and a real web developer, then use Joomla. You need to know some code and database concepts to fully leverage this system. Not for noobs lol.

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by raul3k » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:27 pm

About writing code for Joomla!, i have to say i don't like this at all. It's way to complicate. But there's an module that helps me a lot !
XCiDeveloper (http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions ... ment/16143)

You can write your code using the CodeIgniter framework in joomla (i have to write a lot of codes to the intranet of my company)

I am very neutral comparing CMS, Frameworks, etc. Each one is good for some cases.

But i think joomla should pay attention to it's code. It's ugly, you can't really figure out what is it doing here or there easily. I have to track down to fix something to personalizate the intranet and it takes so long.

but i will use joomla for a long time until i write the whole intranet (we need a lot of costumization, joomla can't do this easily) :)
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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by Huei » Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:31 am

Having used both Joomla and Wordpress I would say they both have their places.
Where Wordpress wins for me is the number of free plugins available to extend the functionality. If a plugin isn't available, its relatively easy to get to grips with creating your own plugin - assuming you know php and mysql its quick to leverage this in wordpress.
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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by Dzumla » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:40 pm

Joomla is a fuilly-fledged CMS with nearly 9.000 extensions and a serious and very well organized back-end.

Wordpress is a blogging platform.

If you just need a blog, why still not use Joomla? Articles in joomla are organized very well with categories.

WIth the right knowledge you can turn any PSD into joomla and therefore make completely custom websites.

Joomla uses positions to place stuff and you can also choose on which pages a module appears.

I can't even look at wordpress back-end (tried twice). How do you even make a new menu in wordpress? Not intuitive at all.

Joomla is a serious CMS.

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by varplyer » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:06 am

I don't get it.... How anyone can say WP is easier to use than Joomla. Maybe its because I was also a mambo user back in the day. Put WP just pisses me off. Can't seem to do anything I want. It breaks often.

DNN was easier to use than WP.

Simple things like building a damn menu seems like takes an act of god. Or only showing widgets on certain pages. Uggh!

WP makes zero logical sense , IMO.

And for the guy who posted merrillgroup.com ... i could do that in joomla wayyyy faster than in WP.

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by Flashphill » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:31 pm

I'm new to this, but Having read all this I get the impression that the argument Joomla vs. Wordpress is the same as: Mac vs. PC; Nikon vs. Canon; Ford vs. GM; Bread vs. Cake; or Tea vs. Coffee.

Its all down to individual preference! :-\ :pop or nuts anyone?

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by Ketch12 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:57 pm

The answer also depends on a person's programming/developer skills. For a non-developer, non-programmer (e.g., blogger, simple e-commerce merchant) I believe WordPress sites are easier to get up and going. However, the result in that case is typically a site that screams stock Wordpress template.

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by bogdan69 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:11 am

Wordpress has also long passed the stange where it's just used for blogs and you can now use it as a full-fledged CMS. The support is great and there are countless tutorial sites online. Joomla has its benefits too and I use it mostly for business sites. The two are equally good in my opinion.
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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by cambrelle » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:23 pm

I am a new guy for joomla, have always being using wordpress, but I like to try new things, so will try joomla

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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by TheLogo-Mat » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:22 pm

Revisiting this post- I can say that I never made the switch to Wordpress. Although Joomla doesn't always come "natural" to me- it ends up getting the job done.
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Re: Joomla vs. Wordpress

Post by Xamire » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:40 pm

Wordpress is best for blogging, and less complex sites (less complex, not smaller) as it's easier to use, and is great at it, and it's shiny! Wordpress can be more complex, but the variety of extensions is not as plentiful, and it takes longer to get everything working together than Joomla, and I'm betting that it has less functionality.

Joomla on the other hand, is better at more complex websites, with a wider variety of options. It's more suited for directories, communities, content construction, disgusting amounts of SEO per page, huge extensions listing that's filled with great, and complex extensions.
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