Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

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Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby websitedons » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:48 pm

The method of using what is now called "shortcodes" as place holders of blocks of complex code, or even a media object, is not new, but certainly under used. The original BBCODE system is such a method and has served many forum users well over 15 years, and the advent of "markdown" has led to some applications replacing the WYSIWYG editor with characters that convert to HTML in the output.

Using shortcodes in Joomla as a method to format and layout pages could enhance the usage globally, simply because it removes the need to edit display files just to achieve yet another fixed display. Therefore making it friendly to the average user.

Examples:

This is the default display of a Joomla category blog layout. It can be modified with an override file and some intense code rearrangement. All good, but that new format then becomes the sole choice, and the user is again in the grips of the developer.
[img]***%20URL%20Removed%20***[/img]

With a shortcode method, the layout possibilities are endless, without coding
This simple and intuitive arrangement easily changes the default display. It's done while creating the menu item for the category blog.
[img]***%20URL%20Removed%20***[/img]
[img]***%20URL%20Removed%20***[/img]

Without creating another override file or a whole new template, the shortcodes can be rearranged to make another category display differently. This format shows the title above the image
[img]***%20URL%20Removed%20***[/img]
[img]***%20URL%20Removed%20***[/img]

Or in a list format
[img]***%20URL%20Removed%20***[/img]
[img]***%20URL%20Removed%20***[/img]

[img]***%20URL%20Removed%20***[/img]
[img]***%20URL%20Removed%20***[/img]

The formatting possibilities are endless, and the basic user will be happy to have absolute display power in their hands. Developers can create endless styling and format presets to allow easy selections.

'Tis the future of "CMS'ing"!
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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby websitedons » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:12 pm

The original post had images that visually defined the SUGGESTED OPTION FOR JOOMLA! There were NO LINKS in the post, neither were any URLs imprinted on the images. Nonetheless, they were removed because of... (whatever you want to think).

The purpose of the post was simply to discus the advantages of shortcode place holders for Joomla content layout, a feature that promised to make Joomla attractive to more non-tech website owners.

While the post now looks like total NONSENSE without the images, here is the concept in TEXT.

The default Joomla content system, as with all other components, have fixed positioning of the data objects, and that's normal. A user, primarily of the technical authority, has to edit override-able files to alter the layout, but that again is fixed. With layout shortcodes, the simple user can easily rearrange the page format without editing any file.

The default for the category blog and article views:
Article Title
Image
Text
Meta Info


With a shortcode layout function, using a standard form text area within a category's setup, any user can easily place the self explanatory placeholders in the position desired.

+--------------------TextArea-------------------+

[image]
[title]
[date][author]
[text]
[relatedposts]
[category][hits][vote][rating]
[tags]

+-------------------------------------------------+

Each placeholder can easily be moved to allow an entirely different outlay for every category. Without seeing ANY code

With advanced usage, elements can be implemented to achieve even more creative formats.

+--------------------TextArea-------------------+

[div class="pull-left"][image][/div]
[div class="pull-right"]
[title]
[date][author]
[text]
[relatedposts]
[category][hits][vote][rating]
[tags]
[/div]

+-------------------------------------------------+

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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby mandville » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:23 pm

why not put this sort of joomla tips in the docs.joomla.org where they will stay current and not work their way down the topic list. you can upload and insert your images to the posts instead of risking 404 errors
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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby sozzled » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:38 pm

websitedons wrote:The original post had images that visually defined the SUGGESTED OPTION FOR JOOMLA! There were NO LINKS in the post, neither were any URLs imprinted on the images. Nonetheless, they were removed because of... (whatever you want to think).
Although this is off-topic from the subject (viz. "Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress"), we can briefly address your point about removing images from your forum messages particularly when the images themselves contained no embedded "self-promotional" references or links.

For what it's worth, I appreciate your contribution about "short codes" even if I'm not personally enthusiastic about the concepts myself. While this may sound a little patronising, "short codes" are about as standardised as BBcode; just as HTML elements require a parser (built into the browser), "short codes" also require a parser [built into the website architecture] that translates these "short code elements" into native HTML. Until and unless the W3C adopts a consensus on the use of "short codes" this kind of concept will always remain a bit like hobby-farming. Not that that should, itself, be a deterrent: it may well come to pass that in the years ahead, people will look back at how websites were created and wonder "How did those people ever live with HTML when they can use 'short codes' today?" :laugh:

The fact is that there may well be many incarnations of "short codes": there may be your implementation of them as opposed to someone else's implementation of them. The fact that you've described one implementation in your forum topic may imply that you're "promoting" your implementation as opposed to anyone else's and, in that sense, that's when the purpose of penning your thoughts on a Joomla forum may be seen contentiously.
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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby websitedons » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:55 pm

sozzled wrote:..."short codes" are about as standardised as BBcode; just as HTML elements require a parser (built into the browser), "short codes" also require a parser [built into the website architecture] that translates these "short code elements" into native HTML.

The parsing of shortcodes already exists in Joomla. That's how plugins output data. We've implemented the system on numerous sites and the clients asks a similar question: "why is this not standard?" They no longer depend on us for template reformatting.

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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby sozzled » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:13 am

websitedons wrote:The parsing of shortcodes already exists in Joomla.
If these "shortcodes already exist in Joomla" and, indeed, if the concept (or terminology) of "shortcodes" is well understood, why is it that, when you search the official documentation for that term, there's no explanation?

websitedons wrote:We've implemented the system on numerous sites ...
And, may I ask, what "system" (whose system) did you implement? I find no reference anywhere to any official standards or "support" (if we could use that word liberally) to Joomla shortcodes. Further explanation and reference to where this facility currently exists in Joomla would be much appreciated.
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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby websitedons » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:36 am

sozzled wrote:why is it that, when you search the official documentation for that term, there's no explanation?

Are you bothered by the term "shortcode", possibly because it's used by the competing CMS? The term simply explains a method of shortening coding that out put an object which would require a longcode. Joomla may not use the phrase, but the method {loadposition top}, is in fact a shortcode, and that's already a core Joomla function.

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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby sozzled » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:52 am

If you're going to use the term "shortcode" in the topic title, and you expect people will understand you, then you may have to re-think how you choose your words. If you're going to demonstrate a ready-to-use function that's built into the Joomla core then it would assist to use the standard Joomla terminology.

If you are describing a tailor-made implementation of something you've developed then I also think you should declare your business interests and issue a disclaimer in starting the discussion. The topic title states that "shortcode formatting is the future for CMS layout" (your words, not mine); this is acceptable for discussion on this forum while there's a general interest in the subject but not if the topic is (deceptively?) "self-interested". The examples you provided give us the general idea (and that's also acceptable) but these are your ideas and your examples. Again, that's not a problem until the forum moderation team perceives someone's ideas or opinions cross the boundary of self-promotional advertising. You can see how sometimes that distinction may appear blurred in the "advertorials" we see in everyday use.

The use of {loadposition <module-position>} is enabled only because of a [core] content plugin. If the plugin is disabled (or absent) then the actual text—literally the text

Code: Select all

{loadposition <module-position>}
—will appear in the article. Likewise, the use of your "shortcodes" (e.g. [image], [title], [date], [author], etc.) are equally dependent on a content plugin or plugins. To a complete novice reading this topic, people may expect that using [image], [title], [date], [author] will render something wondrous on their articles without the need to add anything extra to their websites.

The point here is that, while the general discussion on The Lounge is acceptable, one may view a connection between what you're describing and products that you specifically offer. But, if you don't want us to draw that inference, I suggest you offer a disclaimer. 8)
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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby websitedons » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:20 am

sozzled wrote:...people may expect that using [image], [title], [date], [author] will render something wondrous on their articles without the need to add anything extra to their websites.
It does exactly that!

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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby sozzled » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:38 am

websitedons wrote:It does exactly that!
"It"??? What is "it" that does this? If you place the code you gave us in msg #2 of this topic into the category "setup" (as you described it), this does nothing as far as I can tell. So what are we missing?

EDIT: Hmmm ... by category "setup" are we discussing creating a template override for a category? ??? Not exactly "standard Joomla" or something that a novice user would attempt.
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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby websitedons » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:14 am

sozzled wrote:So what are we missing?
Quite a bit.

sozzled wrote:are we discussing creating a template override for a category?
Absolutely nothing to with any template. The function merges with the Joomla content config system and ANY novice user can very easily and quickly format both the Category Blog view and the Article view.

See how confusing the discussion is without images? As with any source of info, visuals are vital for comprehension.

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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby sozzled » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:19 am

websitedons wrote:The function merges with the Joomla content config system and ANY novice user can very easily and quickly format both the Category Blog view and the Article view.
So, where's the documentation on this? If it's something a novice can "very easily" do, where is the process explained?
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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby websitedons » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:34 am

sozzled wrote:where's the documentation on this?
Due to resistance from that :eek: , we can't post a link, else it is classified as "self promoting".

Our goal with the post, (just as it was 4 years ago when one of our team member posted a thread about core custom fields), is purely to have a discussion on the idea, the benefits to the end user, and the potential marketing advantages it could add to Joomla, if added as a core function.

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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby mbabker » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:22 pm

Honestly, I find the use of shortcodes (especially the system in previously referenced competing open source solution) more confusing than helpful. It makes managing content a lot more difficult than it needs to be in a lot of cases. Also, in the context of Joomla, shortcodes are really either only useful when adding more than plain text to your articles or you are trying to customize layouts, whereas previously referenced competing open source solution users are using the UI more as a full page builder/editor and less as a content editor.

A shortcode system might be useful in the template manager, but in actual articles, it hurts more than helps.
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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby websitedons » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:06 pm

mbabker wrote:A shortcode system might be useful in the template manager, but in actual articles
Again, because there are no images to clarify, you are thinking the method is solely relative to article posts. That is merely 1% of the method, and it has nothing to do with templates.

It's a global formatting function. Just as done with the content global config or the menu item config per category or single page. Once setup, the user needs no further action, just post to the category. It's goal, in association with the new custom fields component, is to allow varying category formatting so a website owner can multi-purpose his site to serve numerous types ie: event listing, realty listing and much more, all with the use of only Joomla Content Manager

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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby mandville » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:20 pm

So you want to upload and post some images directly into this forum on how to use your $15 extension? Or is it to explain how you would like your commercial extenion to be included into the core for free?
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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby websitedons » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:32 pm

mandville wrote:...included into the core ...
To add formatting simplicity for the basic Joomla user.

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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby mbabker » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:21 pm

Your proposal is exactly what I thought, replace HTML based layouts with a shortcode based system that has to get parsed into HTML. It really just makes things more complicated for simple tasks. It might work OK if you're trying to inline carousels or tabs into content, but beyond that you're not making anything easier for anyone except a user who is unable or unwilling to learn some HTML.
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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby websitedons » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:48 pm

mbabker wrote:...not making anything easier for anyone except a user who is unable or unwilling to learn some HTML
That's exactly the purpose. Thanks for making it clear.

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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby sozzled » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:50 pm

It took a while to get to the real purpose of this discussion. The topic began—purportedly innocently—by the OP stating that "shortcodes" (whatever they may mean or however they may be defined) would revolutionise the way that people could alter the layout of their web content. It took a lot of time to discover what "shortcodes" meant and what the topic was really about. The problem with this topic is that there hasn't been full disclosure.

It's a bit like watching a magician pull a rabbit out of a hat: "yes, all you 'basic' users can enjoy the power that's otherwise available only to expert webcrafters" (or words to that effect) and, furthermore, all this power might already be "built into" in Joomla; well, after you install an extra optional extension, it might be. Do you begin to suspect that we're not being told the whole story?

As I have written elsewhere in this topic there's no problem with discussing "shortcodes" within this forum in general terms; however if the purpose is to draw an audience to a commercial website where the "shortcodes" are demonstrated, documented and purchased, that's when we're crossing the boundary from free-speech to deliberate advertising.

There's a difference between a magic act and a lack of full disclosure; both exploit people's naïveté. We know that we can't pull rabbits out of a hat but we love to be entertained by the deception, nonetheless; I don't know if the same can be said when people find out they haven't been told the whole story.

The ideas in this topic are interesting (perhaps) but, having concluded that "shortcodes" are an illusion that's not currently available (at zero cost) to the "basic Joomla user", thanks for the advertorial. 8)
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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby websitedons » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:53 pm

sozzled wrote:The ideas in this topic are interesting...
and that's the goal of the discussion.

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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby sozzled » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:17 pm

websitedons wrote:
sozzled wrote:The ideas in this topic are interesting ...
and that's the goal of the discussion.
Forgive me for being incapable of reply: I'm still laughing too much! You misquoted me: I wrote "the ideas in this topic are interesting (perhaps)". It's the implementation of those ideas that's the illusion. I think you've prevaricated enough.
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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby mandville » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:18 pm

websitedons wrote:
mandville wrote:...included into the core ...
To add formatting simplicity for the basic Joomla user.


You snipped the part where i said about including a commercial extension in the core for free. So give it to the project for free.

Sozzled... since no on goes there anymore, linkedin pulse "discussions" have to go somewhere
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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby sozzled » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:20 pm

*heh-heh-heh* @mandville ;)
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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby websitedons » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:12 pm

mandville wrote:You snipped the part...
Isn't the goal of discussions, finding the objective context and working with it?

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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby mandville » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:56 pm

lets see, now you have run out of meaning ful discussion, you are heading for my idea is great because..
it is outside the box, created with bluesky thinking, has survived liquid sunshine and is only 14.99 so as i dont build bridges anymore and you have skirted the elephant in the room, either admit you are promoting your commercial extension or give it to the community for free and stop confusing the easy way outers with the promised land.
/eof
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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby websitedons » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:59 pm

mandville wrote:...my idea is great because..
it is outside the box, created with bluesky thinking, has survived liquid sunshine...
You may have a point there.

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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby mandville » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:30 pm

websitedons wrote:You may have a point there.

no you made your point when you said
. We've implemented the system on numerous sites and the clients

is purely to have a discussion
, and the marketing


and refused to offer your commercial extension for free to the core, or even mentioned your money making extension for free to users.
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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby websitedons » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:37 am

mandville wrote:...offer your ... extension...
The extension method is the offer and the topic of this discussion.

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Re: Shortcode Formatting Is The Future For CMS Layout - Erase The Coding Stress

Postby fcoulter » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:22 am

The extension method is the offer and the topic of this discussion.


Exactly. You have started a discussion which is a barely disguised promotion of your own commercial extension. This is why people are giving you a hard time, because they don't like posts which attempt to deceive.

Although I have to add that I have been following this topic for some time because it has been quite amusing watching you attempt to wriggle out of admitting that this was the purpose of the post.

Also, personally I like the coding stress, I don't want to erase it. You should not underestimate Joomla users, even those who are not coders usually want to learn, and try things out. The current Joomla templating system offers a huge amount of flexibility, much more than your system would.

I am sure there is a market for your extension, and some people will find it useful. If so - great, let them use it. But it is not the "future of CMSing", most of us will want to keep the current system rather than shoe-horning everything into a system of short-codes. I have to agree with MBabker's view that it would ultimately just make most things more complicated.

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