Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

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Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by spikespiegel » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:31 pm

Joomla 4 is coming and so far I haven't seen a single tool to check extensions compatibility against the current CMS version. Are we going to pass through, once again, all that process of guessing which extensions works and which don't during the upgrade process?

Every single joomla upgrade is nightmare. Not that I prefer wordress, but you see.. wordpress sites won't stop working because of an extension or another not being compatible.

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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by JAVesey » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:41 pm

spikespiegel wrote:Every single joomla upgrade is nightmare.
I've never had a single issue with any update/upgrade.
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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by sozzled » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:15 pm

Installing or updating Joomla (or any of the thousands of extensions that exist for Joomla) is not a perfect science. Anyone who believes the opposite is either wishful thinking or a fool.

Although the caveat message (see the image below) is not a guarantee that a Joomla website is in a position for an update of the core software, it's interesting to note that people often fail to check if there are extensions available that might assist the Joomla! Update process.
beforeYouUpdate.png
I'm not suggesting that this particular topic is a complaint about Joomla—although generalisations like "every single joomla upgrade is nightmare" might have us believe otherwise—but, in order to have a honest discussion about the subject, I think a very important question needs to be answered:

Who is ultimately responsible for the success or failure of installing (or updating ) Joomla?

Answer this question and I think we'll be a lot closer to resolving the problem(s) that this topic seeks to highlight. 8)
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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by spikespiegel » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:55 pm

" Anyone who believes the opposite is either wishful thinking or a fool."
Perhaps you're the only one who believes that, as you're the only one here talking about a perfect science.

""" I'm not suggesting that this particular topic is a complaint about Joomla—although generalisations like "every single joomla upgrade is nightmare" "
And isn't it a nightmare every time we have to upgrade the CMS? So what you mean is that it's so simple to upgrade Joomla that it makes me wonder why some skilled webmasters hire people to do that for them.

I can only see you bragging about how smart you are and how generalized my question is. But all you've shown me is a Joomla update screenshot that isn't even related to an upgrade. It's simple, there is no tool (AFAIK) whatsoever to check if extensions are compatible with the next version of the CMS, if you think that's wishful thinking or a fool's observation, you should be with the other gods in the Olympus talking about immortality affairs.

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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by sozzled » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:13 pm

I reject the unfair, baseless characterisations that you've made about me. I wasn't "bragging" or claiming I'm any different to anyone else. I asked a simple question (one you've chosen to ignore).

If people ask me if there was (or why there isn't) a "tool" to verify that the extensions installed on a Joomla website are compatible with the currently installed (or prospective update to be installed) version of Joomla, I have an opinion but my opinion is worthless until we deal with the question that I asked.

I've attempt to deal with this topic with respect; I sense, from the tenor of the reply, that you've either misunderstood my intent or you have your own opinion that will not change regardless of any response that does not accord with your opinion.

So, I will repeat my question: Who is ultimately responsible for the success or failure of installing (or updating) Joomla?
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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by Webdongle » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:39 pm

spikespiegel wrote:... so far I haven't seen a single tool to check extensions compatibility against the current CMS version.....
It's called 'elbow grease' ... you check on the sites for the 3rd party extensions or contact their developers. You will then know if you chose wisely when installing 3rd party extensions/Template(s).
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by brian » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:53 pm

currently it is impossible to create the tool that you are asking for as joomla 4 is no where near even an alpha release
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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by spikespiegel » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:16 am

@Webdongle Thx for the idea.
@brian Perhaps my question wasn't too clear, I'm sorry.
Look, we have the automatic updates feature for extensions, right? What if we followed the same logic to develop something that through XML would allow developers to display whether or not the extensions are compatible or not with x Joomla versions? Through XML we are able to see the newest available extension update, perhaps we could do the same to retrieve info if the extension is compatible, and it would be the developer that would specify that.

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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by mbabker » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:00 am

Extension developers can already specify the supported Joomla versions for their updates (assuming they use the core update system). So the only thing that's missing is a way to see this info before you try installing it, which isn't really practical to do within the Joomla application for hopefully obvious reasons (but, developers can and should be running version checks and telling Joomla to abort the install/update if the extension is being installed on an unsupported version).
So long and thanks for all the fish.

Manually updating Joomla? See https://gist.github.com/mbabker/d7bfb4e ... 3607f89281

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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by jonnybhoy » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:02 am

OK so I'm reading some of the replies on here and the tone can be a bit unnerving for a newbie like me. Don't shoot me down, but would you recommend, or not, to allow auto updates of any part of Joomla, the core or extensions, or ALWAYS choose to receive update notifications then apply the updates manually? Just keen to hear your views as I appreciate there are MANY different opinions. Thanks in advance.

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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by sozzled » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:26 am

@jonnybhoy: do you use Joomla now?

If you don't use Joomla now then you have nothing to worry about.

If you do use Joomla now then you have nothing to worry about.

Do you understand the different opinions now? I hope so. Cheers. :)
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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by jonnybhoy » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:30 am

Must be the Oz sense of humour...gets lost in translation. Thank you for your assistance, it's greatly appreciated and most useful....

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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by jonnybhoy » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:36 am

To be honest, and I've no doubt you'll correct me if you think I'm wrong, but earlier in this topic you say it's down to the individual to ensure updates are carried out properly. Fair enough, but a badly designed update might seem to work OK, in spite of the installer's checks, yet cause issues at some stage. Is that still the installer's fault? Or the software designer's fault? Then your reply to me says nothing much helpful to me. Time is too short for answers which don't help, or are cryptic. Easy to be the 'amusing' wise guy when you've got the experience. I don't yet have that experience, but remember you were once the newbie. :)

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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by sozzled » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:38 am

To be honest, I wasn't trying to be funny. AFAIK, you are not using Joomla at all, correct? If that's the case then you have nothing to worry about. If you are using Joomla then I apologise for my mistake but, by the same token (and for different reasons), you have nothing to worry about. I'm just trying to be helpful.
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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by jonnybhoy » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:47 am

I'm in the process of switching from a wordpress based site to using Joomla, but as I have limited experience I'm trying to figure out the best ways of making the transition as easy and painless as possible, while also keeping costs down by doing as much as I can myself. I appreciate your input, and clearly if someone doesn't use Joomla, there is no danger of anything going wrong (though to be fair, if you don't use Joomla why would it concern you in the first place?), and if you do use Joomla, why would it still be no concern? I don't understand why that would be the case as there is no useful answer to that. I'd be very grateful if you would tell me in a concise and clear way why a Joomla user would have nothing to worry about. Thank you.

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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by sozzled » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:50 am

jonnybhoy wrote:I'm in the process of switching from a wordpress based site to using Joomla...
Which means that you are not currently using Joomla, correct?

If that's the case then the discussion about keeping existing Joomla CMS and extension software up-to-date is probably irrelevant as far as you are concerned. Aside from that, I stand by what I've written earlier in this topic. It's a matter of personal choice whether people are prepared to embrace/adopt J! 4, when they do that, and how they might go about it when that time arrives.
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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by jonnybhoy » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:53 am

I'm currently in the process of migrating, so technically, yes I am using Joomla, my updated site will go live when I'm happy with the look and functionality. Thanks anyway.

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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by sozzled » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:58 am

Good. Returning to the topic, the OP asks if there's a tool that will check if all J! 3.x extensions are J! 4-compatible. We've said no. I've asked the question, "Who is responsible for verifying that an extension is compatible with someone's website?" Is it for the Joomla project to vett every Joomla extension in existence and say "Yep, this one's a goer?". I suggest that's not the case.

There's only one expert in the room in each site situation and that expert is definitely not me! 8)
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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by jonnybhoy » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:06 am

Fair comment, thanks.

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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by sozzled » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:44 am

I pride myself on my honesty. I'm not always as gentle in my honesty as some others who use this forum but I'd like to think that I'm not that brutally honest, either. Against these two extremes I admit that I'm also not always the most tactful in the way that I approach my responses.

Like most others who use this forum—this Joomla forum—contined references to W---P---- become wearisome. I agree that there are beginners and old-timers and our experiences are vastly different but, it's a team effort.

Against the better judgement of my better half—she who reminds me that I should not use analogies—let me offer you this analogy. Compare the differences between hockey and lacrosse (neither game of which I have any experience); they're similar: round ball, players on a field, sticks, goal posts at each end and the objective is to get the ball in the goal. There are different skills, different equipment and different rules.

Let's say that Joomla is hockey and some other CMS is lacrosse. When a new team member goes along to the hockey team and says "I'm interested in making the transition from lacrosse to hockey", no problem. The team will tell the new player about the rules of the game, the equipment they need to obtain and the skills they need to learn to in order to play hockey.

Now imagine that this [Joomla] forum is like the hockey team's training session. Imagine how tiresome the hockey players would feel if the new player shows up at each training session and says "I'm still making the transition from lacrosse to hockey"? Hmmm? The team will eventually say, "Listen, mate, we're here to play hockey. Either you're on the team and you can train with us or you can go back to playing lacrosse. You're welcome to stay—you can even play both sports, if you want—but please don't tell us that you're not onboard with the game, OK?" Or the team might resort to less subtle hints like placing a broken lacrosse stick in the new player's locker. :laugh:

So, in the most tactful way that I can muster, I hope you might also develop a bit of tact, too, in how you approach your questions. Good luck. Let's play hockey, huh?
Last edited by sozzled on Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by jonnybhoy » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:55 am

I too pride myself on my honesty. Sorry, I don't agree with your analogy, you're not part of a team playing together in the same way a hockey team would play. I'd say you're more of solo event sports kinda guy, who loves it when the rest of the club members listen to his sage wisdom. Then a new member wants to come and play, and asks the rest of the solo sports people for some info on easing into the sport. Here's where you are wrong. I'm not interrupting your game, because you're playing alone. You don't need to even acknowledge my question or interrupt your solo game, but you choose to do so, make a fuss while doing so, then blame the new guy for interrupting your game.

Do what most people do if something annoys them. Save your 'honesty'. Don't let the name Wordpress upset you, just ignore it if ever appears.Trust me, you'll enjoy life a lot more if you learn to ignore a little. No-one forces you to reply, but when you do reply, and you help without being rude or 'honest', then it's appreciated. Any other time you're really just wasting your time, and mine.

I've no more to say on the matter. I'll try not to ask any questions where your name appears, in case I step on your toes and upset you :)

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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by sozzled » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:08 am

Like I said, you can play both games but, in the final analysis, there's no gain without some pain. Returning to the topic, J! 4 will bring some pain for some people; I don't disagree. It is expected that the transition from J! 3 to J! 4 should be relatively smooth but it will depend on the degree of preparedness and preparation that people make beforehand.

Undoubtedly, moving to J! 4 will, in many cases, be dictated by circumstances beyond their own control (e.g. clients who demand it or wehosting providers who withdraw support for J! 3) ... at some future time.

People who are still running J! 1.0 all the way through to J! 2.5 will have their hurdles amplified many-fold. People running J! before J! 3.4 may be traumatised. While we can't predict every situation with precision, we have years of experience in handling the issues that people confront us with today in making that relatively easy transition from J! 1.x/2 to J! 3. So there's no real news there.

But the path to a smooth transition from J! 3.x to J! 4—that's what this topic is really about—is made easier if people's websites are up-to-date as far as the Joomla CMS and extension software is concerned. There's no "easy" way around that; it's just work.
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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by darb » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:09 pm

spikespiegel wrote:Joomla 4 is coming and so far I haven't seen a single tool to check extensions compatibility against the current CMS version. Are we going to pass through, once again, all that process of guessing which extensions works and which don't during the upgrade process?

Every single joomla upgrade is nightmare. Not that I prefer wordress, but you see.. wordpress sites won't stop working because of an extension or another not being compatible.
I dont agree and have not had that problem as you said. Only one time since 2005 it have been an issue with a 3pd that had not updated and have some problem. So Joomla itself will not "stop working" but depending on what extension that maybe is not compatible that could have some effect of Joomla.

So no upgrade is an nightmare of Joomla if its within the semantic versions and its just a button click upgrade and then you are done. Takes 4-5 seconds on a good hosting.
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Re: Joomla 4 is coming: Are you ready for the headache?

Post by darb » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:34 am

If you have very old Joomla sites you can use migration tools to make a smooth upgrade too. The best is to always follow the latest upgrade. But if you need to move from very old Joomla sites its better to use tools like jUpgradePro https://matware.com.ar/blog.html
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