How are you dealing with the GDPR?

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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by sozzled » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:57 pm

Waste of time debating this. Tracking cookies and third-party cookies have nothing to do with the GDPR. How do you include email as well? Will this hysterical GDPR obsession never end?

Imagine the telephone call that begins, "Hello, this is your mother speaking. Before you speak with me, you agree that this telephone conversation is subject to the GDPR and you accept my word that I will not tell your father what we're going to talk about."
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by Webdongle » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:11 pm

But if the visitor clicks to allow Google analytics (on a site) ... That gives site owner permission to use it. But is it giving Google permission to use it for anything other than in connection with that site?

If no then how does Google separate it from their overall statistics?
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by MyFirstPage » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:50 pm

How do you include email as well?
Because the have also Private Data include?
The must stored so that nobody elese get access to.
Tracking cookies and third-party cookies have nothing to do with the GDPR.
If the are external one sure because with them you can track someone.
Imagine the telephone call that begins, "Hello, this is your mother speaking. Before you speak with me, you agree that this telephone conversation is subject to the GDPR and you accept my word that I will not tell your father what we're going to talk about."
So Mom running an Company?
But if the visitor clicks to allow Google analytics (on a site) ... That gives site owner permission to use it. But is it giving Google permission to use it for anything other than in connection with that site?
I am not an Lawyer but when you allow Google to set an Tracking Cookie the can use it.

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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by sozzled » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:59 pm

MyFirstPage wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:50 pm
Imagine the telephone call that begins, "Hello, this is your mother speaking. Before you speak with me, you agree that this telephone conversation is subject to the GDPR and you accept my word that I will not tell your father what we're going to talk about."
So Mom running an Company?
Are you running a company? What difference does it make (as far as the GDPR is concerned) if the person who manages a website is "running" a company or not? The GDPR applies to individuals in the EU just as it applies to corporate entitities in the EU. I suggest you read about the GDPR and, if you're still unsure, seek legal advice.

Like I said, it's a waste of time debating who's right and who's not right. It ultimately comes down to how a court of competent jurisdiction—not how the "court of public opinion"—will decide each case brought before it.

... and don't bring my mother into it! :p
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by MyFirstPage » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:35 pm

Are you running a company?
an Social Club/ Non Profit Organisation but I didnt make the fictional call.
What difference does it make (as far as the GDPR is concerned) if the person who manages a website is "running" a company or not?
You talked about the Phone Call.
The GDPR applies to individuals in the EU just as it applies to corporate entitities in the EU.
If you run for example some Ads on your Private Page you are not private anymore and you have to comply with the GDPR and other stuff.
It ultimately comes down to how a court of competent jurisdiction—not how the "court of public opinion"—will decide each case brought before it.
And you will loose in quite every case and you have to pay tousend of €!

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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by sozzled » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:58 pm

And, for the third time, it is pointless trying discuss "the GDPR" if people have no idea what it means (and when people can't identify satire).
  • If (a) you operate a social club or not-for-profit, (b) your club or not-for-profit operates within the EU, (c) you collect data about other people, and (d) that data is stored electronically or by some other system by your social club or not-for-profit

    then you are subject to the GDPR.
  • If (a) you are a sole trader, (b) a company or (c) a private individual, and (d) you collect data about other people, (e) the data is stored electronically by you or your company or by some other system, and (f) you or your company operate within the EU

    then you are subject to the GDPR.
I do not operate within the EU. I am not subject to the GDPR ... and you can't tell my mother anything.

Anyone can run ads on a website. Just because someone runs ads on a website doesn't transform them into a company. As for the "thousands of euros" I'm at risk of losing then be my guest: sue me; let the court decide.

Complete waste of time debating this issue. It's got very little to do with Joomla, anyway.
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by Webdongle » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:09 pm

But it has a lot to do with many people who use Joomla.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by MyFirstPage » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:19 pm

I do not operate within the EU. I am not subject to the GDPR ... and you can't tell my mother anything.
You are when I enter your Website (because I am in the EU).
Just because someone runs ads on a website doesn't transform them into a company.
Here it does! When you get any money with your Page you are Commercial even if not ads mean 3rd Party Data that mean Cookies.
let the court decide.
lol you will loose... :pop
But it has a lot to do with many people who use Joomla.
That is the thing who I hope everyone understand here. If you run a Webpage you can screwed up very fast.

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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by sozzled » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:36 pm

@Webdongle: I understand the difference between what can be configured within J! to "deal with the GDPR" and how the GDPR affects 6.78% of the world's total population. I do understand the difference.

The problem is when the reasonable discussion about the GDPR was overtaken by other conversations about "checkbox compliance", third-party data collection tools (e.g. Google Analytics), the use of third-party/tracking cookies, etc.; whether these are related to the GDPR and what's appropriate in all situations. By extending a website owner's culpability to include third-parties entities, not under the direct control of a website owner, the situation becomes a farce.

It's not a website management issue, per se or Joomla-specific either: even before the GDPR, website owners had an ethical responsibility to disclose what, where, when and how personally identifiable information was obtained and for what purposes it may be used. The GDPR codifies those duties and obligations upon website owners who operate in the EU. Other countries have similar privacy principles and/or legislation. I am bound by the Australian Privacy Principles. If I was operating within the EU then I would be bound by the GDPR.
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by MyFirstPage » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:11 pm

Again when someone from the EU is access your Website you have to deal with the GDPR.

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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by Webdongle » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:31 pm

sozzled wrote: If I was operating within the EU then I would be bound by the GDPR.
you operate in the EU by virtue of the fact your sites can be viewed there. But whether or not you are significant enough (for the powers that be) to bother about is debatable :laugh:
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by sozzled » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:54 pm

Disagree with both these contentions.

The law is there as a last resort for people whose privacy has been wrongly compromised by reckless or deliberately intrusive website owners, charlatans and those who trade in exchanging private data for profit. The extent of the penalties for these abuses will, probably, reflect the degree of wilful and systemic abuse. Generally-speaking, however, if someone has a concern about their privacy, they should be able to contact the site owner and say "Hey, can you help me, please?" Depending on the response they may need to escalate matters further.

Being "bound by law" doesn't mean the law has to get involved; the GDPR was originally intended to be for education but when law-makers got involved it became a weapon. The question is really about the choices we make and how we take the initiative in making better, informed choices; it's not about having our choices dictated to by a tiny, special interest group, either. It's not about trying to control things we can't control. And, lastly, the fact that my business can be viewed all around the planet is a modern wonder; it's a marvel of technology.
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by Webdongle » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:56 pm

Yep but it makes it subject to the laws of those countries.
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by sozzled » Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:18 pm

The question is "How are you dealing with the GDPR?" (It might just as well be a question about how we're dealing with climate change.)

I'm dealing very well with the GDPR. If someone believes that there are legal impositions declared by the representatives of 6.78% of the world's population that extend to the other 93.22% then, by all means, let's argue that in court. People may be "subject to the laws of other countries" (if they physically visit those other countries) but so what? When did saying that carry any legal weight?

@Webdongle: you deal with the GDPR as you must (and while the UK is still part of the EU) and I'll deal with things, as I have to, according the the laws where I live and conduct business. Where there may be disputes concerning the enforcement of foreign laws between UN member states, let them thrash it out in The Hague.

I want world peace but isn't it ironic how much people are prepared to go to war to achieve it?
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by Webdongle » Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:00 am

There are already court cases and fb have already made changes https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theg ... mer-rights
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by sozzled » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:13 am

What does it matter to you, @Webdongle, if I may be wrong? I am not saying how things operate in your neck of the woods (and what's important to you) isn't important to you. I'm only saying that I'm "dealing with the GDPR" very well, thank you. If there is some purpose in trying to convince me (and the rest of the world) that the GDPR applies to everyone then I should be grateful if you would explain to me that purpose.

And, besides, the cases against Facebook and Google have yet to be concluded. We could be waiting for years for these to be resolved. I daresay that Facebook and Google will vigorously defend their rights as much as the EU will try to impose their regulations on them. But so what? What does it prove? Only time will tell.

Facebook and Google have made changes, not to comply with the GDPR but to work around it.
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by Webdongle » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:41 am

It doesn't matter to me if you are wrong or right. I am asking questions, making comments and posting links (as reference).
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by sozzled » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:56 am

Well, let's turn this discussion around to something more practical.

@Webdongle: would you say, in your opinion, that if a website has a presence in the EU but the business is located outside the EU, and the website has a privacy policy that is different to (or possibly in conflict with) the GDPR, that the rights of people in the EU who use the service take precedence? Would you say that, in your view, it doesn't matter where the business is located that, as long as that enterprise is conducting business with people in the EU, the operators of the website can be taken to court by someone in the EU under the provisions of the GDPR?
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by Webdongle » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:45 pm

It is very much looking that way with fb (as well as other large companies) changing things. https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic ... w-apply_en claims that gdpr applies to all companies in eu countries ... and to all companies outside of the eu that sell to eu.

It looks like site owners in the eu will be more affected by those outside of it. But when the rules do apply to sites originating from outside the eu then they will be the same rules.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by sozzled » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:32 pm

@Webdongle, I would like some clarity in this discussion. I asked a straightforward question:
Is it your view that, a website that has a presence in the EU but located outside the EU, and the website has a privacy policy that is different to (or possibly in conflict with) the GDPR, that the rights of people in the EU who use the service take precedence?
Does it matter if the business is located in, say Australia or the US, if they're conducting business with people in the EU, do you think the operators of the website are required to comply with the GDPR? I contend that a foreign-owned and operated business—outside the EU—is not exposed to those requirements. My understanding of your argument is that the location of the business is irrelevant: that all websites are subject to the GDPR. Is my understanding of your argument correct?
Last edited by sozzled on Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by mandville » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:42 pm

sozzled wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:32 pm
My understanding of your argument is that the location of the business is irrelevant: that all websites are subject to the GDPR. Is my understanding of your argument correct?
by jove i think you got it!
google how+is+my+non+eu+business+affected+by+the+gdpr
Article 3(2) applies to the processing of personal data of any individual “in the EU.” The individual’s nationality or residence is irrelevant. The GDPR protects the personal data of citizens, residents, tourists, and other persons visiting the EU. So as long as an individual is in the EU, any personal information of that person collected by any controller or processor who meets the requirements of Article 3(2) is subject to the GDPR.
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by Webdongle » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:53 pm

With the caveat that ... If the company is based in the eu then it does not have to be a business but if outside the eu then it needs to be selling to people who live in a eu country.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by sozzled » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:08 pm

OK, thanks @Mandville. This is what I've been trying to establish for a while. In participating in this subject I have been asked to defend my position that, because I am located outside the EU and, in spite of the fortuitous nature that my website(s) are accessible to people in the EU, I am required to comply with the GDPR. Furthermore, as one person tried to suggest, if I do not comply with the EU laws, I may have to pay "thousands of €" in order to settle disputes arising from those laws.

We're not talking about the big end of town here. The subject of this discussion is "How are you—that is, people in the J! community—dealing with the GDPR?" The J! community extends across the far stretches of the planet. Part of that community is located in the EU; other parts are external to it. Perforce the Internet, most websites are accessible world-wide. Admittedly, some nation states have policies and are able to block access to internet content but, the fact remains, that the Internet is just that: international.

The question for us, I think, is what are the requirements for people who have dealings with others residing in the EU and how our dealings with them are subject to EU law. That's what I have been trying to address. My participation in the conversation has, to some extent, been something of an interrogation; being on the receiving end of blunt force argument to convince me that my business is [somehow] affected by laws that are (to be candid about it) not recognised where I live. I have no quarrel with "what happens in the EU stays in the EU" (regardless of my personal views on the logic). In a way, I have some empathy for the problems confronting people in the EU just as much as I have obligations to conduct my business ethically and according to the laws where I live.

Even so, I sense that some people do not agree with my position. I still would like to know from @Webdongle how he would address the questions (no caveats, please) I asked in my previous post. I'm not talking about businesses that are "based in the EU"; I'm talking about businesses based outside the EU. I should also like to hear arguments supporting the assertion made by @MyFirstPage:
MyFirstPage wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:11 pm
... when someone from the EU is access your Website
... meaning my website—a business located where I live, outside the EU
MyFirstPage wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:11 pm
... you have to deal with the GDPR.
I say that's nonsense. That's not my interpretation of the GDPR.
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by mandville » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:47 pm

If you are based outside the eu dealing with the non eu people then its fine, if you deal with people inside the EU then its gdpr. treat every one the same.
If someone visits my business site, they get a standard cookie notice and why we ask for info and what we do with it when they contact us via email (standard wp29 stuff). if they become clients their wp20 status changes and they do not have to give us consent under lawful processing for consent to process their data. and i am the DC
for the charity sites i maintain, i am the DP, and DO but not the DC. Those sites need to be fully Wp29 compliant.
for some others sites other legal play
trade union branch - membership fee based so its assumed consent and lawful processing of sensitivie areas
neighbourhood watch - the best - data processing of PII with out the data subjects consent but lawful processing allowed under wp 29. the NHW members are all DP and DC and lawful consent has to be obtained but they may be treated as a membership group that doesnt need it.
so where were we.. gdpr/wp29 has made my life "interesting"
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by sozzled » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:04 pm

Thanks, @mandville. :)

In your opinion, even though the privacy statements that accompany every one of my websites states that I am beholden to Australian Privacy Law (that, in some ways is reciprocal to, but maybe is not as comprehensive or specific as the GDPR), would you say that I am required to—is it necessary for me to explictly—to insert the inclusion of conditions that I am further obligated under GDPR in dealing with people's privacy where those people are residents of (or visitors to) the EU? Or should I just chance it and hope I get away with it?

Furthermore, how would the EU uphold the rights of its residents and enforce its laws on residents of non-member nation states, especially those nation states that the EU has no diplomatic ties with? I suspect that's too hypothetical to debate at this time.

Our discussion is really about what we (as residents of non-EU-member states) need to do in order to stay on the straight-and-narrow path as far as protecting individual privacy is concerned. Further, if we should stray off that path (by commission or omission of the fact) are we subject to sanctions imposed by the EU as some people seem to be suggesting?
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by mandville » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:08 pm

I suspect that's too hypothetical to debate at this time.
yep
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by Webdongle » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:17 pm

You questioned the affect on companies not in the eu. You suggested that it does not apply to companies outside of the eu. You have argued the toss but several posters have had to waste their time explaining to you why it does. Once you stop posting objections (to the fact that eu companies need to comply) then we can get on with the discussion.
Furthermore, how would the EU uphold the rights of its residents and enforce its laws on residents of non-member nation states, especially those nation states that the EU has no diplomatic ties with?
Time will tell after this test case https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic ... w-apply_en
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by sozzled » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:30 pm

@mandville: Leaving the hypothetical out of it, what about the other matters I've asked?

In seeking further information on this subject, I've referred to the Joomla Privacy Policy that may help to shed some light on the subject. Although the policy is framed around the collection and storage of data (including personal data) that is external to the EU, I read:
What is the applicable law?

The present conditions of use of our domains are governed by the WP29 law and subject to the jurisdiction of the courts of the Joomla Project's registered office, subject to a specific attribution of jurisdiction arising from a particular legal or regulatory text.
The Joomla Project's address (i.e. OSM) is located in New York, USA (although other Joomla properties are held at various other places around the world). It would be an interesting question if a resident of the EU wished to bring an action under WP29 to a US court, whether the US court would grant leave to hear the case, and what remedies and sanctions would apply to the parties thereto, eh? Again, a hypothetical.

I just want to know, quite simply, in your opinion, are non-EU-based websites required include something similar (or even more extensive to acknowledge the introduction on 25 May this year of the GDPR)? Do you thing the legal department of OSM also needs to take the new GDPR matters into consideration?

@Webdongle: I don't know if you're unable or unwilling to answer my question. I'm not objecting to anything. I am asking for clarification; I wouldn't say that I'm "arguing the [coin] toss" ... it's either head or tails, right? My initial position was (and remains) that "I am dealing with the GDPR (by not doing anything) very well, thank you." I haven't heard any reasonable argument to suggest I should change my opinion. This is not (as you state) "wasting" time. We're having a conversation. If you don't want to participate in that conversation, that's your choice. As I wrote earlier, I have been on the receiving end of the debate (at one point, it was suggested that I could be threatened with legal liability for having a different view) and I'm not defending my position. I'm just asking for some clarification from others who may know the answers.

I think that's what we all are seeking.
Last edited by sozzled on Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by Webdongle » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:35 pm

I have answered you several times but you refuse to accept my answers.
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Re: How are you dealing with the GDPR?

Post by sozzled » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:41 pm

Huh? Where?

I asked:
sozzled wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:32 pm
@Webdongle, I would like some clarity in this discussion. I asked a straightforward question:
Is it your view that, a website that has a presence in the EU but located outside the EU, and the website has a privacy policy that is different to (or possibly in conflict with) the GDPR, that the rights of people in the EU who use the service take precedence?
Does it matter if the business is located in, say Australia or the US, if they're conducting business with people in the EU, do you think the operators of the website are required to comply with the GDPR? I contend that a foreign-owned and operated business—outside the EU—is not exposed to those requirements. My understanding of your argument is that the location of the business is irrelevant: that all websites are subject to the GDPR. Is my understanding of your argument correct?
Is your answer (a) yes, (b) no, or (c) I don't know? I haven't refused to accept your answer. I haven't read your answer. It's a simple question, I think. A simple answer would be helpful.
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