[35]Remove sections, use ierarchical categories

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[35]Remove sections, use ierarchical categories

Post by pointri » Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:44 am

This white paper does have a bit of collusion with Hackwar's Sections/Categories suggestions and action steps, but it does have rather expansive end goal in mind.

OVERVIEW

The legacy categorization scheme for Joomla!’s content component consists of one dimension of taxonomy and three tiers: sections, categories and articles, with a pseudo fourth tier attainable from the perspective of the end user by adding page breaks into an article.

For the majority of Joomla! installations, the current scheme suffices to quickly post and publish articles. However, to manage new types of articles, satisfy metadata necessities, repurpose articles for usage in other sections and categories, and reshuffle content, the default scheme becomes rather difficult to manage as a site’s content base grows. Generally, the default categorization scheme does not scale well and circumscribes the limitations of Joomla! as a content management system.

The general goal of this white paper is to suggest implementation of some first steps in Joomla! 1.6 to provide for alternative or multiple taxonomies. This should be implemented while preserving the legacy database schema as much as possible for backwards compatibility, and without necessitating hacks to core component code.

Multiple taxonomy methods and accompanying views made possible by plugins with access to core components data calls would pave the way for:

- Tagging or Controlled Vocabulary (One content item, multiple “categories” strung along one semantic continuum)
- Multiple sites (if one such plugin were designed to invoke XML-RPC or SOAP, for example)
- Serialization (magazine issues, etc.)
- Node-based schemes (using parent_id stacks, or for the adventurous, modified tree traversal)
- Retention of the default Section > Category > Article scheme.
- Installation of exhaustive, pre-fabricated categorization schemes for vertical markets with standard taxonomies (health, construction, education, government, locations, etc.)

And most importantly: a combination of these taxonomy strategies, thus providing multiple perspectives on core content.

METHOD

The Section > Category > Article scheme would be provided in the core as a removable component or plugin, but included within the default installation for sake of backwards compatibility. Migrating to 1.6 should not involve a major change in the database schema, rather alternative taxonomy methods can depend and draw from content fields that already exist in the Joomla! 1.5 database schema, or from a new table or series of tables.

Instead of simply replacing or extending the Section > Category > Article scheme wholesale into an oft-touted node-based scheme, a developer may create his/her own hook or override to build the database call and to point the result to a view. Meanwhile, the end user would have the flexibility of applying a variety of pre-built taxonomies to a piece of content and would possess a number of taxonomy options that organize and display content.

CORE CHANGES

In regards to taxonomy, core components’ models continue to be hard-coded in Joomla! 1.5, apart from the enhanced observer pattern which opens the door for content plugins to manipulate, append to or remove attributes from that component’s final output. A third-party developer extending the current content model could perhaps provide the end user with a single alternative or supplementary taxonomy dimension, but a systematic way to recognize and deploy new taxonomy types across a Joomla! installation would require core support.

The current relations between content, sections and categories tables would need to eventually be abstracted to the point that they can be wrapped into a plugin or helper class.

The features outlined here coincide with and would likely depend on the core team’s intention of updating core components to the Joomla! 1.5 MVC pattern in Joomla! 1.6.

ACTION STEPS
FOR JOOMLA! 1.6


- Convert all core components to MVC
None of this would likely be possible without controllers that negotiate through database operations incorporating one or several taxonomies, then push results to views that are associated with a particular taxonomy. For example: content items plucked from a leaf of a category tree, then seen from a weekly calendar view.
- Begin work to eliminate sections in the default taxonomy
Part of a 1.6 migration process may consist of a SQL command which takes current sections and reinvents them as top-level categories in the categories table (parent_id = 0), with subcategories’ section id’s within the content scope being transferred to the parent_id field. A new interface for managing content categories could mirror the new expanded tree structure.
- Develop a base JTaxonomy class
Implementation would be determined from community input, as the characteristics of such a class would probably become a collection or extension of other class instances, i.e. JNode, JElement, JParameter, etc., and would require implementation down the line in several places: administrator interfaces, routers, etc.

PITFALLS

Third-party adoption
If third party components and modules expect certain standard taxonomies to be installed, support for multiple taxonomies may bring subsequent versions down the slippery slope of dependencies.

Software and hardware limitations
Especially in the cases of applying several taxonomies at once, or implementing modified tree traversal as a taxonomy method, underpowered sites might break under the weight of some heavy querying without some effective caching mechanisms.

End User Considerations
As is the case for access control list support in Joomla!, a quick survey of interfaces for multiple or even tree-based taxonomies demonstrates that they are inherently clunky and can often confuse end users.

REQUEST REFERENCES

This feature request encompasses the following recent topics discussed under the Joomla! Forum’s Feature Request category:

- Multi-Categories by marvin06 (http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=264064)
- Sub-categories by spinfx (http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=10894)
- No sections, just categories by mouloud (http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=260201)
- I want custom fields by ckjian (http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=200571)
- Contacts under multiple categories
(http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=223684)
- Subcategories by justinbraybauer
(http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=47415)
- Recursive sections by walexman
(http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=212220)

COGNATES IN OTHER CONTENT MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS

Controlled Vocabulary: call up any given Wordpress, Livejournal or Blogger site to see the pervasiveness of tags to organize content. Third party developers have implemented a number of tagging schemes in Joomla!, many implemented with a dependency on content fields, but are inherently limited to a few recognized components.

Multiple taxonomies: Several open source and proprietary content management systems have already provided coding clearance for pervasive, multiple taxonomies, including Plone, Drupal and CMS400.

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[35]Replace Section/Category with Tagging (Draft)

Post by joatmon » Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:52 pm

Introduction
Scope
This document describes request to remove the section/category and allow for a general tagging structure.
Objective Of The Document
This document is aimed at removing the section/category features of content and replace it with a tagging structure. It will describe changes needed to content as well as ability to manage tagging for other 3rd party components.
General Remarks
Definitions
License
GNU GPL
What Is The Current Issue?
The current method for organizing articles is handled by creating sections and categories for the article. Articles can then be related to each other via these sections and categories. There are a couple of issues with this approach. The first is that it is not very flexible. An article can only be associated with one section and one category. Articles can be related to each other and not meet this criteria. Secondly the section and category concept is really only usable by articles. 3rd party components are not able to use the sections and categories without what I would consider to be minor hacks since there is no built in section/category API in the Joomla! core.
What are the proposed improvements?
I am proposing that the section and category concepts are scrapped and instead replaced with a tagging system that allows for an unlimited number of tags that can be added to an article. Additionally a tagging API should be added to the Joomla! core that allows for 3rd party developers to build tagging easily into their own components. As an example of how tagging should be implemented from a user interface standpoint, I would direct the development group to how http://del.icio.us handles tagging via their Firefox extension, which allows one to choose existing tags when assigning tags to a new item in an Ajax-like fashion.
Technical Realization
I don’t have a lot of input as to how to implement this other than to say that tagging abilities should be easily addable to 3rd party extensions, possibly by adding a new JHTML class like JHTMLForm that handles all tagging aspects through Ajax including retrieving existing tags, adding tags for the extension item, etc. It’s possible that this is not completely doable, so it would at least need to have the ability to return the tags added by the user as well as additions to the JTable so that adding tags can be done “automatically” like is done with things like hits and ordering currently in the JTable class.
Possible Uses
This would allow for a very flexible system that could be used by all core components as well as 3rd party components.
Effects On…
Users
This modification would allow users to have more fine-grained control over managing how articles as well as potentially other extensions are related to each other.
3rd Party Extensions
This change would allow 3rd party extensions to couple themselves more tightly with the core components without having to do “hacks” against the existing system because an API for tagging would exist.
Performance
I would anticipate very little to no performance implications other than that which is incurred by utilizing Ajax technologies in general.

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Re: Setting the stage for Multiple Taxonomies

Post by willebil » Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:21 pm

During past years summer of code Enno has been working on a NBS implementation. His work was not finished, but he progressed very well. Maybe something to look at also.

Problem I see with this is not only maintaining the backward compatability, but it is also very hard to implement supporting PHP 4 and 5. I like the initial writing, food for thought for later on in this white paper process ;-)

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Re: Setting the stage for Multiple Taxonomies

Post by pointri » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:34 am

Thanks for the feedback.

After experiencing the complexities in creating a data interface to implement just an NBS, through following Enno's work and from creating a component making use of just an NBS that relies on MySQL stored procedures, I appreciate the complexity involved to realize this feature, and agree that any effective implementation in the core of what I'm (trying to) describe here can and should certainly wait until features found in PHP 5/6, as Reflection and improved OOP support become more pervasive.

Generally, this request aims simply to flesh out ways to provide a clear pathway in the framework API and core components to replace or supplement the current taxonomy scheme. There are probably several ways to do it--a combination of code cleanup, further abstraction of core component models through application plugins, helper classes--things that can be done with the current framework, so I'm eagerly looking forward to seeing what comes down the pipeline in the next couple weeks as well. :pop

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Re: Setting the stage for Multiple Taxonomies

Post by severdia » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:39 am

If I may add a point to this suggestion... I wholeheartedly agree with increasing the flexibility and custom taxonomies within Joomla and would like to propose a possible interim solution to a full blown system as described above.

If possible, it might be worthwhile to add a system of aliases for the each of the three parts of the tiered system. An example might be the ability to alias an Article in a different category, allowing a single article to appear in multiple categories. The same could be said for categories and sections, allowing for greater flexibility in creating those taxonomies. If implemented properly, it could be fairly easy to migrate to the abovementioned functionality once it becomes more technically feasible.
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Re: Setting the stage for Multiple Taxonomies

Post by pointri » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:38 pm

Aliases could work as well, tacked on to the content table as a set of composite parameters or attributes to avoid tampering with the current database schema. It would need a corresponding interface when editing content, and that could probably be drawn similarly to how menu items are currently managed through the content component.

Thinking it through to how it would look in the content model, that might slow retrieval of content lists and 'blogs' down a bit, because queries would involve not only looking for a category or section ID, but also an alias in what could be a long list of attributes referring to that category or section ID as well. On the other hand, just about any taxonomy enhancement using the current schema would muck up the content model just as much, if not more so.

My biggest concern is that a new migration issue would pop up in subsequent versions, where in order to normalize the relationship between content items and a new default taxonomy (whatever it may be), those alias attributes would probably need to move into a new field in the content table, or into a new table altogether handling categorization with a reference ID to a content item.

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White Paper: Replace section/categories with tagging

Post by yourmanstan » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:38 pm

1. Summary

Currently, content articles are stored in a section/category format. Thus all content must be organized in two levels regardless of the nature of the website. This creates difficulty for site management as the rigid section/category nesting structure may not reflect the logical nesting order of the content. For example, a website with only 20 pages may only have a need for one level of organization. Other websites may need three, four, or more levels of organization (ex: section/sub-section/category/sub-category). The solution is to provide for any number of levels of nesting; i.e. tagging / labeling. Each tag should have an assigned parent, or be designated as a top-level tag.

2. Requirements

section manager and category manager to be removed and replaced with 'category tag manager'

while creating/editing a content item, user will not need to select both a section and category; they will only be responsible for selecting a single 'category tag'. to streamline this process, the drop down menu must be replaced with a pop-up window which allows the user to filter down to the tag they wish to select (perhaps similar to the article menu selection process in Joomla 1.5)

to create menu links, 'category blog layout', 'category list layout', 'section blog layout', and 'section list layout' will all be removed and replaced with a 'category tag blog layout' and 'category tag list layout' which would allow the user to select a specific category tag.

selection and creation of category tags should be developed in a manner that allows quick and easy loading regardless if the user has 1 category tag or a 1,000 category tags.

3. This change, should improve user experience to allow less proficient users manage their website content in a structure that they understand. Users would not have to learn that in order to create an article, they must first create a section and category to contain the article. They may simply create an article, and it is assigned as a top-level content item. As their list of content grows, they may want to organize their content and may begin approaching category tags to manage their data.

This would be a fundamental shift of the data organization structure of Joomla, and certainly some changes to the database structure. In order to achieve backward compatibility, the section/category structure of existing websites would correspond to the first two levels, with a new added ability to create sub-categories. the 'section' would be rendered meaningless as each category tag would already have an organized structure of parents and children.

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Re: White Paper: Replace section/categories with tagging

Post by yourmanstan » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:58 pm

I had not noticed earlier... please merge my post with

http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=500&t=265684

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Re: Replace Section/Category with Tagging (Draft)

Post by darb » Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:13 pm

I dont think this is a good idea at all. To take away the section/category structure of Joomla.

As I understand Delicious is non-hierarchical structure using tags for mapping social bookmarks?

What Joomla must preserve is to be m o r e and better hierarchical structured than today working with attributes/topics and terms (Drupal word), nodes and t a x o n o m y.

How you do when you want to map many to many attributes? Tags is useful when you have a couple of hundreds relations but what happens later when you got 1000 and 10000 of them? And how do you map them accurately and how will I find them? only by searching? I think its important not to miss the browsing too.

Tagging is good for SEO and making an extra way of finding your content but not in my opinion to replace Joomlas core structure...

But using taxonomy system is a powerful way to categorize and structure the content of a site and to specify how different categories are semantically related to each other; that is how their meaning is related. Using Taxonomy you can build trees (known as vocabularies) of topics (known as terms) to define the conceptual and semantic structure of your site. The tree can illustrate the purpose, meaning and relationship of one node to another. This is how it works with Drupal and I hope Joomla will following this instead...
Last edited by darb on Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Replace Section/Category with Tagging (Draft)

Post by JasynL1977 » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:44 pm

I also disagree. I don't think this is a good idea. However, I do think Joomla's structure should change. There should not be a section/category delineation. Instead, there should be simply parent/child categories, with the ability to have multiple sub-categories.

You can call a parent category a section, if you want to; but the whole concept should be removed.

Lastly, content and articles should have a many-to-many relationship.

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Replace Section/Cat With Parent/Child Categories

Post by JasynL1977 » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:46 pm

There should not be a section/category delineation. Instead, there should be simply parent/child categories, with the ability to have multiple sub-categories.

You can call a parent category a section, if you want to; but the whole concept should be removed.

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Categories and articles should have a M-to-M relationship

Post by JasynL1977 » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:48 pm

Categories and articles should have a many-to-many relationship; meaning, articles can belong to more than one category.

This would require a change to the Article Layout page.

Instead of a drop-down select box, you would have a multiple select box.

Reason: Will provide site developers greater flexibility in mapping out the structure of their Web site, instead of enforcing a rigid system.

Remember, the key is to allow the end-user the greatest amount of power. Sure, end-users may not know what to do all of the time. Nevertheless, it is a well-known fact that people prefer software that gives them the most functionality, not the most simplicity. That's why people pay an arm and a leg for Photoshop and not Paint.

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Re: Replace Section/Category with Tagging (Draft)

Post by Let_Me_Be » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:37 am

Why replace? This two approaches can very simply coexist together. An article can have a section/cathegory and tags. Displaying by tags is just a different approach.

The same happened on filesystems, there are still directories but files can be tagged and searched, or displayed by tags.

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Re: Replace Section/Category with Tagging (Draft)

Post by newart » Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:08 am

I agree with the fact that "two approaches can very simply coexist together. An article can have a section/category and tags. Displaying by tags is just a different approach."

Our actual categorization system is very old and not flexyble. Joomla needs a complete new system with sub-categories and special tags for relations among contents! Surely, this is not a sort of own opinion but what you can see everyday when you see that medieval limit... :'(
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Remove sections, use ierarchical categories

Post by Dionisiy » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:36 am

Sections aren't needed, section is a top level category for current Joomla category.

Better use just categoris with ierarachy (parent category). Would be nice to be able to have multi-parental structure (each category) can have more than one parent category.

This will simplify organizing and displaying of content, currently all section layouts of com_content just dublicate the usual category layouts.

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Re: Replace Section/Category with Tagging (Draft)

Post by joatmon » Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:24 pm

Let_Me_Be wrote:Why replace? This two approaches can very simply coexist together. An article can have a section/cathegory and tags. Displaying by tags is just a different approach.

The same happened on filesystems, there are still directories but files can be tagged and searched, or displayed by tags.
I am willing to concede to the two coexisting and in actuality it makes a lot of sense. It's often hard to be everything to everyone but in this case I don't think the technical hurdles would be difficult to overcome.

What I would still like to see is a tag/section/category/whatever API built so that 3rd party developers would not have to build hacks to incorporate this functionality. I realize it's not a horrible hack to do so, but it is still a hack none-the-less. J! 1.5 has taken huge strides towards being a very nice framework and I expect 2.0 to be the full realization, but might as well make 1.6 a step closer (at least to me :) ).

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Re: Replace Section/Category with Tagging (Draft)

Post by newart » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:14 pm

I know the 2.0 joomla version can be very different from a 1.5 / 1.6 version, but in the same time I hope to see some development as the world is changing and we cannot lay down in a prehistoric categorization, this problem is a core one for every CMS around the world... the focus is the content, we know, and we need to see something new and smart for our contents now... maybe with some limitations, due to backward compatibility and other issues but please let's try a system "a little" better than now!
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Re: Replace Section/Category with Tagging (Draft)

Post by bucabay » Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:25 am

I think replacing the section/category structure in Joomla with tags is a very good idea, however, I don't think Joomla users are ready for such a new concept.

One of the main points is that tags do not have a definite/static hierarchy. Most websites need a hierarchy more then they do a fuzzy view of their content. A hierarchy view is also much easier for most people to relate to at this "age".

I think the next step would be to remove the section/category barrier and have multiple sub-categories. If tagging can be a built in feature and have an API, good. But it should be a secondary view of content relationships, not the default view.

On the content management side, it is also harder to visualize a tag based structure. A category based structure is visualized before hand, and the relationships can be built without any content. With tags, the relationships are defined in progress, and the structure defined dynamically on rendering the visual view of the content relationships. This seriously hinders the advanced planning of content structure for a team developing a structured site (which is the case with most sites).

Tag based relationships can have a hierarchical view (a dynamic one). But most users of Joomla would not be aware of this, and even if this was documented, it would be hard to visualize this when you wanted to categorize your content. Tags are also better suited to allowing everyone to tag content, thus the website editors would lose their control over the hierarchy if they allowed open tagging.

If you wanted a hierarchical view and had to resort to building this with a tag based relationship, you'd have quite a hard time. It much easier if you had a hierarchical structure, and could place content in this structure or outside the structure (like with the current static content) then create a separate relationship and views by tagging the content and/or categories.
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Re: Replace Section/Category with Tagging (Draft)

Post by newart » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:15 am

The post by bucabay is very wise, so it's important to take into considerable account what just written in the future posts, also if the categorization issue limits are up to now a big concern... an easy step beyond would be developping a sub-category system...
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Re: Replace Section/Category with Tagging (Draft)

Post by darb » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:25 am

I agree bucabay.

But what I also see as a limitation and what I dont like with tags is this;

"...Tags are also better suited to allowing everyone to tag content.."

Question is how do you tag content correctly so it will be accurate for everyone to understand (search) this kind of one of a reference book of correlation to the right words? What about multilingualism sites?

One problem is also that people have different backgrounds, understanding, culture, education, age, use of different language etc to use of different words/synonyms/acronym etc for tagging...

You also have 3 pds for tags like this one already for Joomla http://www.joomla-tags.com/
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Re: Replace Section/Category with Tagging (Draft)

Post by newart » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:54 am

Well with that last post by darb now I've seen too much problems than a better solution for joomla... thanx for your link, very useful for who wants to use, now, a tag system. On my own discussing about tags, well, I get the idea to talk about a Drupalike system or a community one...
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Re: Remove sections, use ierarchical categories

Post by newart » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:36 pm

the content categorization is a big issue on joomla - please can you post a more detailed white paper?
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Re: Remove sections, use ierarchical categories

Post by pointri » Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:44 pm


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Re: Remove sections, use ierarchical categories

Post by newart » Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:24 pm

Thanx for yr linx, maybe can a moderator merge all those threads in a single one. I've seen that the problem is the same but the solutions, sometimes, very different...
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Re: Replace Section/Category with Tagging (Draft)

Post by darb » Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:13 pm

newart wrote:Well with that last post by darb now I've seen too much problems than a better solution for joomla... thanx for your link, very useful for who wants to use, now, a tag system. On my own discussing about tags, well, I get the idea to talk about a Drupalike system or a community one...
well here you can learn about Drupal demo site and Taxonomy - Vocabulary-Termshttp://www.unleashedmind.com/drupal/adm ... p/taxonomy
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Re: Replace Section/Category with Tagging (Draft)

Post by newart » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:54 pm

well, thank you for your info-link - Dpl system is very different from J! one.
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Re: Replace Section/Category with Tagging (Draft)

Post by darb » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:04 pm

well there is a good and interesting discussion going on here http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f ... &start=300

I think its good that we learn from what good and working from other open source and cms system.... :D
Success in the long run Its not about the code its about the people and community that's make it!
Its not what you say its what you do that matters!

Darb - aka ssnobben

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Re: Replace Section/Cat With Parent/Child Categories

Post by rockarena » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:37 pm

I somewhat agree but don't forget that some people do like this system.

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Re: Replace Section/Category with Tagging (Draft)

Post by AmyStephen » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:51 pm

joatman -

I actually understand what you are saying, even if I can't support your proposal. Eventually, I hope to see sections/categories go away and a better way to navigate content for updates is created. Too many people confuse sections/categories with site hierarchy and, in doing so, end up limiting themselves to a three level hierarchy unnecessarily.

I use Joomla!'s Section/Category structure as a way to organize:
a) articles for creation / update (separating content so it's easier to find);
b) groups of articles (which can then be used as "nodes" on the menu system).

Joomla! Menu items are "nodes" which one can use to create:
a) unlimited levels of hierarchies.
b) multiple mappings for a single node without incurring duplicate content by selecting the external URL menu type.

Given Joomla! v 1.5 SEF URL's, system generated duplicate content is gone and Tagging systems can now be used to create another navigation structure that is very helpful. Links created by tagging can be used in clever ways to emulate menu systems. But, even in WordPress, (arguably the best at tagging), categories and tags are separate data structures, for reasons mentioned by others - tagging environments tend to get unwieldy and therefore, function best as secondary menuing, not primary.

The last reports I have seen in the forums to the component linked to above is that one cannot edit content from the front end using that tool. I have an early beta of RobS's Tags that is a native v 1.5 and it is very good. It tags across all content types, not just articles. The URLs it puts out are existing URLs, not duplicates. I hope it is soon released.

The important point for people to learn with Joomla! (and sadly that many people miss) is that the section-category structure in Joomla! is not a right tool for creating data hierarchies. Your menu system is where that structure should be constructed. If you learn to drive your hierarchy from your menu, you will find that there is no three-layer constraint and there never was one.

I thinking tagging is very valuable. I would welcome tags in core, but, I do not think tags probably belongs in core. (We need distributions - and a blogger distribution would certainly benefit from tags.) But, I cannot see getting rid of sections/categories until there is a replacement in mind for organizing content for editing purposes and for creating groups of articles for menu items.

Thanks...Amy :)

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Re: Replace Section/Category with Tagging (Draft)

Post by joatmon » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:32 pm

AmyStephen wrote: I thinking tagging is very valuable. I would welcome tags in core, but, I do not think tags probably belongs in core. (We need distributions - and a blogger distribution would certainly benefit from tags.) But, I cannot see getting rid of sections/categories until there is a replacement in mind for organizing content for editing purposes and for creating groups of articles for menu items.
In general I agree with this statement, however I believe that leads to what I feel is a larger problem (or maybe it's actually an exciting fallout of the 1.5 redesign), components in the core. I won't go into it a great deal because it really doesn't belong here, but in my opinion, the J! framework should be standalone. The developers have built a number of nice components that really should be optional and I would even include the com_content component, its modules and plugins. That way my users would not be "restricted" to using the core components. I personally don't use things like the polls, weblinks and banners and so they are taking up space and more importantly, confusing my users as to why they are even there. Removal of these would also allow 3PD to extend and build off of these components instead of having to "hack" at the core to make changes.

Ok, that's enough. I hope I haven't derailed this discussion now. Thanks Amy for your input. It's warmly received! :)


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