SEO: Table-less html output

[alledia]

Short description

Joomla should output table-less html for its regular content display. Currently, this is only possible through template override feature, which means every template author has to redo the job for every new template.

Expected benefits/ Problem solved

This will reduce the html/content ratio, which is considered a positive factor by search engine. By using table-less output you can also port a joomla site direct to a dot mobi cell phone website, we did this with J!1.0.x and got it to validate 100% We have a J!1.5.x template but have issues getting validated 100% currently its at 85%

Potential issues

Currently, 1.0.x templates can easily be ported to 1.5 by changing a few instructions to a new syntax. This will be broken if table-less output is the rule. Table-full or table-less output should be selectable in the backend.

[AmyStephen]

Steve -

This is available using template overrides. What is the problem with the solution already available?

One set of template overrides and it can be used in every website.

Not picking on you, honest!!!!

Amy

[newart]

Amy, your logic is right if you use an override template system only. This use cannot be a general common use. Joomla in its "native" logic has not particularly "clean", as you know. Maybe this is the case for some little works around...

[alledia]

No offense taken

These come from our SEO wiki: http://joomla-seo.pbwiki.com (hence the large number posted today)

[newart]

in order to avoid any misunderstanding : joomla needs to be cleaned by tables and tables and so on... you can override your cms but I think a cms has to be perfect at the start!

[AmyStephen]

Why Newart? If you can copy an html folder that is already in core to your template - why is that not good enough?

[shumisha]

Hi Amy,

If you can copy it from a core template, then ... why not copy it from a core template ? once for all ?

Regards

[AmyStephen]

Confused. You can copy the html folder from the Beez template - and that is in core.

[newart]

I think the core has to be at its best state-of-the-art : you can use the override system, if you like / need / want it or not... it's up to you!

Joomla needs to be more cleaned in HTML tags, CSS (and java stuff too, please see also at http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=304&t=264994 - never solved ). I don't like the idea of I-don't-worry-about-anything-as-all-can-be-overrided, it isn't in the spirit of our community works & efforts.

I'm talking about a full perfect clean, the perfection is not possible in the earth, but please why not to try something? just a little more than what it is now...

the beez template isn't exactly the core, it is like a graphic extension, please try with a very simple small template and open the site source page... all it'll be there at your eyes...

[shumisha]

Hi AMy,

Confused. You can copy the html folder from the Beez template - and that is in core.

I meant : why should we copy (and therefore duplicate) this code to have it apply to another template ? If it is there, already written, why is not the standard way of outputting html for Joomla ?
As of J 1.5.2, Joomla basic output is tablefull, then, if you choose a template like Beez or another one where you have duplicated the override code from Beez, then Joomla html code is going to be overridden by the template code. Why is this ? can't the overriding code simply be replacing the joomla html code ?

Regards

[AmyStephen]

I see. Well, I remove templates I don't use when I go live. Less for crackers to attack. :P

Listen -- my point is this -- we *do* have "SEO: Table-less html output" (unless tables are semantically correct.)

We have it. It's in the core.

Lots of talk about stripping down core to framework. Lots of talk about how many of the core extensions are really not used. So, imagine that Joomla! coming into sharp focus.

Template overrides make it possible for us to control our output. You want tables, great, put 'em in. You don't? great, pull 'em out.

Does it make sense for the core developers to remove this code now - when maybe some day even the components that produce that output will be removed? Not to me.

Again --> We *do* have "SEO: Table-less html output" (unless tables are semantically correct.) We do. It's in the core.

Anyway, let's agree to disagree. I need to check out your SEF URL tool.

[shumisha]

Yes, I think we'll disagree on that one :

We *do* have "SEO: Table-less html output" (unless tables are semantically correct.) We do. It's in the core.

No, it is not in the core because :
- I have to use Beez template to have this
- or I have to copy PHP code from Beez template to whatever I am using if I am not using Beez.
Sorry, that does not quite make it for me. Core template are not Joomla core, they are just templates used to display Joomla core HTML output.

Additionnally, I don't see WHY it is not in the core, now that this is written. To make it clear, why can't we have table-less output as standard, and use template override in the rare cases (nostalgy ?) we would like to have tablefull output Don't get me wrong, I actually think the reason it was not integrated is precisely to make most 1.0.x templates fit for 1.5, by keeping the same CSS.
My point is that I'd rather have it the other way around : tableless standard, override to get tables.

Regards

PS1: I am not in favor of stripping down the core, that is more a technical viewpoint than a user viewpoint
PS2: Are you telling me you have never checked out sh404SEF ?

[unleash.it]

Respectfully, here are 6 good reasons it would be a GREAT idea to rid the core of tables and make it more semantic (heading tags, etc.). Of course it's easy just to copy the HTML folder from Beez but:

1. Thousands of ordinary Joomla users either don't know they can or won't bother.
2. The Beez overrides have some weird line breaks that a novice Joomla user may not know how to fix.
3. Joomla will gain the respect of the rest of the world as a more modern cutting edge CMS.
4. Extension developers will be encouraged by the example of Joomla to make their extensions semantic. (hey wouldn't that be great).
5. The world will be one step closer to ridding itself of awful table spaghetti!
6. It seems like it wouldn't be that hard...

[newart]

Moreover I think joomla can find easily volounteers for that cleaning work... it isn't a difficult one...

[AmyStephen]

In that case, maybe a group of you could do it and submit it as a patch.

[newart]

In that case, maybe a group of you could do it and submit it as a patch.

we're talking about an official development by an official joomla team, if joomla needs a dedicated official team for doing so, joomla has to declare its needs and goals... and starting for a joining-us-manifesto. Now the problem is: does Joomla want to approve this white-paper? After that decision, all you can do...

[bigfatman]

yes table use for tabluar content only.
Personally I think this is better done through simple css classes rather than css microclassing which can be overcomplicated.

[newart]

on my own I think that apart form the method used, joomla has to be better than now without thinking that a override system is the solution... we're talking about the core and joomla deserves a splendid light modern core!

[mcsmom]

In that case, maybe a group of you could do it and submit it as a patch.

we're talking about an official development by an official joomla team, if joomla needs a dedicated official team for doing so, joomla has to declare its needs and goals... and starting for a joining-us-manifesto. Now the problem is: does Joomla want to approve this white-paper? After that decision, all you can do...

If you always depend on other people to volunteer their time and energy to get what you want, you will always be disappointed in what you receive.

If you want it, and it's not picked as a project for the dev team for 1.6.0, build it yourself. Offer it to the community. Maybe it will make it for 1.6.1 or in the future, but that doesn't stop you from having it sooner. In fact you may have noticed that many of the white papers already have code attached. This would be a stronger white paper with code.

[AmyStephen]

Thanks for that response, Elin. This type of discussion can be "time-wasting", which is sad, because it's such a valuable topic. Without realizing it, though, our comments can inadvertently make it look like the developers are insensitive to the community's needs and desires.

Clearly, people who commit time and freely share their skills and expertise actually committing code *do* care. The entire point of the view portion of the MVC application architecture that has been meticulously created is to provide flexibility for everyone to have their Joomla! output constructed differently.

As it turns out, we don't each have the same needs, viewpoints, preferences or ideas.

I recommend reading the bottom section of this page and follow the links to learn about the framework. The word "override" can give the wrong impression if there is not understanding of the MVC architecture. Think "choice", "customization", "flexibility", "options", "individuality."

Understand, whether one agrees or disagrees, some people require the old output or their templates will be blown. Allowing them time to adapt to new approaches, allowing the wider community time to provide alternatives and solutions, is a sign that we accommodate our membership.

For those of us who are not only passionate and particular about xHTML, but are also motivated to make things happen, the tools were delivered with 1.5 that can empower us to create our own output. I am working on a set of overrides for my needs that use standard markup and will test the frontend at a local accessibility testing center. I am thankful that this path has been opened up for me and that no one is standing in my way of doing what I want to accomplish.

These discussions can fuel us, as a community, to be results oriented and empowered community if we are individually ready to invest our time and take action towards solutions. Imagine how great Joomla! will be when we learn to allow our passions motivate us towards contributing solutions. Instead of waiting on the developers, we can become developers, too. The developers opened the gate with the MVC for this question - for the purposes people are discussing.

Don't know how to do it? Learn! Lifelong learning is fun - never too old to learn. (Look at me! )

If someone wants to work on template overrides or learn how to get started, check out this resource in the Absolute Beginner's Guide to Joomla!. Nearly all of that material was written by students aged 13-17 (I kid you not), and it's well worth our time to consider.

Have fun with Joomla! - it's a blast when you start digging into it,
Amy

[unleash.it]

Hey, the ladies of Joomla have spoken Well I really don't want to make this into a serious debate, but I thought I would add a couple of things since I was one of the commenters that suggests this change.

If you always depend on other people to volunteer their time and energy to get what you want, you will always be disappointed in what you receive.

I can only speak for myself, but one of the reasons why I think this is one of the most important changes that Joomla can make, even more than my own ideas, is not actually for myself. As stated several times here, it's now possible to use a template override to have whatever code we like and still be able to cleanly update. I myself have taken advantage of this and I agree it's not that hard to do. However, there are simply a lot of people who are not and never will be coders. They will be helped by this and so will Joomla.

Imagine reading regular reviews for Joomla on CNET, Slashdot, etc. as is the case with Wordpress and others. The big deal here isn't just the fame and celebrity you might receive, but how about the influx of serious programmers to help the project and community?

Understand, whether one agrees or disagrees, some people require the old output or their templates will be blown. Allowing them time to adapt to new approaches, allowing the wider community time to provide alternatives and solutions, is a sign that we accommodate our membership.

Agreed this is important. But how about changing the core for modern HTML and making a drag & drop template override available for the legacy sites? No one has to update but when they do, simple instructions will guide them through it. If the css is made to mimic the table layout, problems will be limited anyway. CSS could be placed in general.css to make the transition even more no-brainer.

Imagine how great Joomla! will be when we learn to allow our passions motivate us towards contributing solutions. Instead of waiting on the developers, we can become developers, too. The developers opened the gate with the MVC for this question - for the purposes people are discussing

I agree with you Amy about the give and take in open source. But I myself am not a hard core programmer and never will be. I can't imagine having the time to do that with everything else I do. I do code somewhat, and I have been dabbling with the framework...but as a designer first...it's more than enough to keep up with new photoshop and css techniques... Still (and again, can only speak for myself here), I have and will continue to try and participate. I have freely helped out a lot of people both here and at Virtuemart as well as various extension projects.

I will continue to try and find ways to give back to the community, but (I think like a lot of others as well) am unable to become a programmer on the level of being able to submit core patches of anything more than very basic. In this case it seems to me like it's not that big of a deal. We already have the "core patch"...almost...in the Beez override. Just fix a couple things to make it work better with the default template and there you have it. It seems like it's more a question of policy then the man hours to do the work. I guess we'll see what they decide to do.

[AmyStephen]

OK. Just to see if I understand you correctly, you'd like to see the HTML folder in Beez cleaned up a bit - and all of the template files moved into the appropriate view files for components and modules. Then, we take the files that are there now, package them as an HTML folder and distribute those for people who still need the old output.

If that is what you are proposing - perhaps it might work. It will not require a programmer to do that and to test it and look at how it works with Milkyway against a number of browsers - and with the old templates. In fact, that should be an area of your own expertise, right?

Please, consider giving your idea a try! Taking the initiative to explore and test and provide results and a specific set of recommended changes, along with your professional opinion is exactly what we need from the community. Lots of us individually contributing in our own area of expertise.

I like the prospect of your idea and I encourage this exploration.

Thanks,
Amy

[mcsmom]

I think long term we need a place where people can share what they have done with over rides with the community. There's no reason to reinvent things all the time.

[unleash.it]

Some good points Amy and yes, that's what I was trying to say. Frankly in my work, I've only used a few of the overrides from Beez. In those, I noticed relatively few problems in working w/rhuk_milkyway or my own templates. I have also dumped the whole HTML folder in and haven't noticed anything major (aside from a couple things like the pdf/email icons dropping down), but I admit better work will need doing in terms of testing.

As far as someone like myself being the one to take on this particular task, to me it still doesn't make much sense. For starters, I believe others have already submitted patches to make the core more semantic. Up until now, none of these have been accepted. How do I know that if I put in substantial work into this on my own that my work will ever be used?

For me to do this, I would have to learn from scratch how to work within Joomla's guidlines, how to use SVN, etc. This work can quickly be done a lot faster by someone who understands these things. Also as you mention, it's the testing that will take the time. The bottom line is that this is something that will end up needing to be done by the Joomla team no matter who submits the patch...and they'll need to spend the time doing it in any case.

On the other hand, I will certainly consider what you said for other mods/extensions that I may think of!

Mcsmom: Great idea. That would be a great addition either as a forum topic or even on the extensions page. I still think that a tableless core would give Joomla a step up in evolution though.

[mcsmom]

Six months ago I couldn't have told you how to connect to SVN or make a patch. Now i teach people every day how to do it. You can set it all up in under an hour, less if you have downloaded software before and read the instructions .

It's all a matter of you making the decision to help or not. It's fine if you don't, but don't be intimidated by the idea that this stuff is that hard. The kind of things you are talking about are mainly html. No one is saying you should create a new ACL implementation. I'd rather have the developers spend their time on the hard stuff than on fixing typos or cleaning up templates. Someone like me, who is impatient, it doesn't matter whether it's code or dealing with a problem at my child's school, I don't wait, I jump in. If you're the patient type, more power to you, but you have to recognize that it means that you have to wait for it to be someone else's priority. (I wish I could be that way.)

As for patches being rejected, I really don't know what you're talking about, I read everything submitted to the tracker every day, first thing in the morning while I'm having my tea, and I've seen patches commented on and improvements suggested, sometimes complete reworking by those who know what they are doing, but flat out "rejection" is not something that happens unless it's a feature request. If there is a problem, it gets looked at, but it is a slow and careful process.

How do I know that if I put in substantial work into this on my own that my work will ever be used?

True, that's life in the big city, but it will be used by you and anyone else who wants it.

For me to do this, I would have to learn from scratch how to work within Joomla's guidlines, how to use SVN, etc. This work can quickly be done a lot faster by someone who understands these things. Also as you mention, it's the testing that will take the time. The bottom line is that this is something that will end up needing to be done by the Joomla team no matter who submits the patch...and they'll need to spend the time doing it in any case.

True enough again, but no patch for them to test, no testing will happen. You want 10 hours of team time now because they are going to have to spend another 10 hours on your project later, so why not just have them do 20?

Is that a deal you would find attractive?

Besides teaching people how to use svn, I also give a lot of advice about how to achieve your goals. I language rather than you language is always going to be more successful. Try it this way, I want this, what can I do to facilitate making this happen? Rather than: you need to do this.

How can I facilitate you getting what you want? How about this deal? I'll talk you through setting up tortoise, and I'll teach you how to make a patch file (just like I taught Amy :-)).

[AmyStephen]

I have nothing but respect for that woman. You'd be well advised to take full advantage of her offer.

Go mcsmom!
Amy

[unleash.it]

Alright already, you've punked me! (not that I ever watched that silly show...)

If I've sounded demanding, I'm now going to close my big mouth. Unfortunately, now is not the time for me to take on this kind of task. Perhaps that will change at some point, so I'll keep my radar on. But aside from this, I still have misgivings. If there was better communication/coordination directly with the developers...i.e. what their thoughts and plans are on this topic...it would make it easier for myself (or someone else) to take on tasks like this.

How do I know that if I put in substantial work into this on my own that my work will ever be used?

True, that's life in the big city, but it will be used by you and anyone else who wants it.

But actually... I don't live in the big city, there are cows and orchards right down the street! Basically, I don't like to see my efforts to go wasted. I might be willing to donate my time, but certainly not if it's not going to go anywhere. This isn't about just making an override that a few people can use. That's basically already in place. This is about transforming what's almost there into a finished product ready to be released into the big world. That is something the Joomla devs and their whole team really need to get their hands oily on...if this is something they want to happen that is. If they honestly think a lone hack like myself can save a few hours of their time by testing a semi-modified Beez HTML folder in the couple of browsers that I have (I don't even own a Mac), than please let me know (I'm serious). If it hasn't been done within the next 2-3 months...I may have time then.

I have helped and I'm sure I'll be helping more, maybe even in ways like this. However, I feel this is a bit much to take on for a first "patch". Mcsmom, thank you kindly for your offer. I may very well be looking you up at some point when I'm ready.

Night y'all

J.

[AmyStephen]

You don't sound demanding, just not engaged. And, you don't *have* to engage, that is your choice. In fact, that is the point. Make recommendations. Argue the point. Introduce evidence and industry expert testimony. Predict possible consequence. But, in the end, it comes down to "someone has to get their hands oily" and contributors are just as free as the rest of us. (Otherwise, we'd call their work "coercions", not "contributions." )

Yes, one lone hacker can make a difference if passions and commitment and perseverance are allowed to overcome deficiencies of time, skill, aptitude and experience. The proof is Joomla!.

Take care...Amy

[unleash.it]

I think none of us want to keep beating on this dead horse. We obviously have somewhat different opinions here. In spirit at least, I agree with both of you, the Joomla Motivators (I think that should go next to your avatars)!

However, I think it's an opinion to say that I'm not "engaged". You're entitled to it, and compared to both of you w/your 5000+ posts, I may seem like a coercer...but as I've mentioned, I have done things to contribute. I have freely written lengthy tutorials at least a half-dozen times and published them here and at VM. I've spent hours helping Richard test SmartSEF, Bigodines test his Magneto/Joomla integration, I've anwered various PMs/emails about my postings and spent extra time helping people through their problems. Could I do more? Possibly...but telling me I must do a particular thing to be "engaged" seems a bit...coercive?

This is probably not the best place to discuss this, but what I am talking about here is the efficiency in getting people to contribute...and what they should contribute on. No doubt contributing is valuable to Joomla...even by us hacks...but if you want our help, organize the process. Honestly, I think more people would contribute if they felt their contributions might actually get used. People with experience (not talking about school kids) don't want to work hard on something that has a good chance of not being used. Period. Communication (directly with the devs/decision makers) would help here. Maybe a new board that deals w/coordinating tasks with non-working groups could be a good thing?. A little organization (from the top down) could possibly help.

There you have it...more dreamy ideas without action. Don't you love discussion boards?

[mcsmom]

Rest assured that the devs do read this forum and the issue reports. And they have been thinking hard about priorities.

I think you're engaged and this is a good thread, it's more of an interesting discussion of how to make specific things you care about happen within a gpl project.

I think this whole white paper process IS about creating organization and goals. If this isn't one of the top ten, you or whoever know that it's still open for the future, or you can