[33]Remove unusefull stuff

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[33]Remove unusefull stuff

Post by Hackwar » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:25 pm

Hi guys,
this is again not really a whitepaper, since I'm asking to remove stuff.

Components to remove:
com_trash -> Move this functionality into the menu manager and com_content
com_frontpage -> Move this functionality into com_content as a filter
com_banners -> There are better third party modules than this and for most people, the custom html module is the better choice.
com_polls -> There are better third party modules. Maybe we could provide this as a component in the extension directory instead.
com_search (backend) -> There are better ways to gather statistics for the search.
com_messages, com_massmail -> Merge these components as proposed in another whitepaper.
Removing these components means a little loss in functionality, but it would simplify the interface and it would emphasize on the modularity of Joomla, enforcing the users to use third party extensions. The components mentioned above have often enough been criticized due to their lack of functionality. We should consequently go that extra step and remove these extensions.

Modules to remove in the frontend:
mod_archive, mod_latestnews, mod_mostread, mod_related_items, mod_sections -> replace with mod_content like proposed in another whitepaper.
mod_banners -> Since we are removing com_banners, this module is obsolete.
mod_footer -> replace this module with a custom html module. It does not seem logical to create a special module to output static text.
mod_poll -> since we are removing com_poll, this module is obsolete.
mod_stats and mod_whoisonline -> Merge these two to one stats component.
This would mean a reduction from 20 modules in the frontend to a small 12, without actually loosing (a lot of) functionality.

Modules to remove in the backend:
mod_stats, mod_logged -> replace with one "Statistics" module
mod_latest, mod_popular -> replace with one "Article" module
This cleans up the cpanel position a bit, especially stuff like the menu stats are not really usefull.

Icons to remove from the Quickicons module:
Frontpage Manager -> Since this functionality moves to the article manager, this one should be removed.
Section Manager -> In case we are merging com_sections and com_categories, this one would be obsolete, too.
Language Manager -> I don't see a reason why this manager should be necessary as a quickicon.
Global Configuration -> This is something that should only be set once and after that is basically obsolete. Why waste the space?

Menu items in the backend to move around:
Article Manager -> Move to "Components", since com_content is nothing more special than any other component. The special status of com_content currently seems to hinder people to see what this component is and maybe some other budding developers will provide a better version of it.
Category Manager -> Move this to "Site", since this will be something a lot bigger in the future, when we move to a NBS.
Article Trash, Section manager, Frontpage Manager -> Remove these, since they are basically obsolete.
Content -> Remove this top level menu item completely.
Read Messages, Write Messages, Mass Mail -> Since this component is merged into one component, this one should be moved to "Components".
Global Checkin, Clean Cache -> Move this to "Help".
Tools -> Remove this top level menu item completely or rename "Help" to "Tools".
This again cleans up a lot of the interface. We should think about how to divide the component menu sometime in the future to be more usable when a lot of components are used.

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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by masterchief » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:31 am

You re right, this is not a white paper, but I'll let it pass as it may assist the content of other ones - doesn't hurt to have one or two brainstorming threads.

Regarding the components, the counter argument is to significantly improve com_banners, com_polls, etc. I'd also need to see hard evidence that they are not being used (or being replaced by 3rd party components) before considering dropping them.

Re backend com_search, it's needed for preferences and probably will be expanded in latter versions. Rather than ditching the search terms statistics, I think we should look at improving it.

com_trash - agree, merge with components
com_messages & com_massmail - I think I'd keep them separate. I'd rather see Mass Mail improved to include simple 'templates'.

In all these things we have to take into account that hundreds of thousands of people are getting used to a new interface. Changes should be made wisely. Also it doesn't necessarily follow that removing features simplifies things. It takes time to review and choose third party components - and that is not a simple process. Doesn't hurt to have a broad range of "ok" components that will work for many simpler situations without the user having to try and find a replacement.

Re Content Modules - agree, can be easier aggregated
mod_footer is a funny one. It's usefulness is questionable.
Merging of statistics could be done.

Re Quick Icons - I probably wouldn't focus on that just yet. I'd wait until we had like a control panel manager that people can customise through the UI. It's a very subjective area.

Re Menu Items - I would not touch these at all without very good reason. The impact on the Docs team would be significant (screenshots and text) not to mention all of the free and commercial printed media immediately becoming out of date. Just saying that it needs to be considered very carefully.

However, I disagree with what you suggest to move under Help (like Global Checkin, Clean Cache, etc). It's not related to help at all and is correct where it is. I also wouldn't move the Articles handling as people are used to it being there since it's a focal point of the backend.

Re the Tools menu, we talked a long time ago about allowing extensions to attach to this menu somehow. In my view that would be a lot more useful.

Those are my thoughts anyway.
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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by Stasys » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:06 am

Hackwar wrote:Components to remove:

com_polls -> There are better third party modules.
Can you name better ones? Maybe we should extend polls core functionality?
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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by Hackwar » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:29 am

Thing is, there are several people out there, which don't use these core components and often enough switch to other extensions, because of lack of functionality. A lot of people also requested a Joomla! light, which only ships with com_content. I'd like to meet those people halfway and offer them a slimmed down version of J! On the other hand, I don't want to put several different packages out there for the users to download.
Maybe we can provide a standard install and a custom install method, where the standard install loads all those extensions which we learned to ?love? o so much from extensions.joomla.org and the package itself only contains a minimum of extensions...
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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by LocaLizeR » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:39 am

By my mind these core extensions are accessories like e.g. the calculator for an operating system. There may be better 3pd ones available - who wants can use them.

I think it would be much better if a user could uninstall a core extension when he/she wants to replace it with a 3pd one and to be able to reinstall the removed component/module/plugin.
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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by Randy H » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:54 pm

I could see having two different versions of the next Joomla release.

Some people like having customized components, plug ins , modules. While others like everything straight out of the box.

We could have Joomla light, a space saving version which the user can only add what is needed (basically keep all vital parts). Then perhaps Joomla XL, a version with just about everything out of the box (everything, including new or different features).

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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by newart » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:14 am

I think it's important to split the talking into 2 considerations: one for a clean joomla and the other for a light joomla.

As well described by hackwar you can see that joomla needs to be cleaned, better re-organized and in the same time you can have the advantage to light joomla itself!

But what proposed can co-exist with an idea: delivering a lighter core joomla... maybe faster that ever.

I accept the proposed idea as I see a need for a cleaning, in the same time probably it'd better not to delete some components for a 3D party. You can simply support those components and delivering a lighter joomla at the same time. Apart from our specific opinions, joomla has to be cleaned... this point is real!
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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by Stasys » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:56 am

I doubt we have man power to provide and maintain 2 joomla versions
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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by Randy H » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:53 pm

Stasys wrote:I doubt we have man power to provide and maintain 2 joomla versions
It would have to have the same frame work, just one without some stuff (which could be added). If it would become a problem with man power, eventually eliminate active updating the original Joomla/mambo version could be discontinued. With in time, the Joomla will become obsolete(I am not a programmer, but thats how things work.).

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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by newart » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:16 pm

I see only 1 version with 2 distributions, one complete as up-to-now and another with less elements inside. How can it be possible? Simply by de-installing something...
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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by RoscoHead » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:43 am

Stasys wrote:I doubt we have man power to provide and maintain 2 joomla versions
It might work if there was a separate team maintaining each distribution. Look at Linux. There's more distributions out there now than I know about, and I know about quite a few. But the core Linux developers basically ignore them all (except when they send in patches!). It's up to those packaging the distros to update every time a new core version is released. So I guess what I'm saying is we have the man power of the entire internet if they're willing :)

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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by newart » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:27 am

Good answer and good example... there are 3 steps to be considered:
1 - to remove unuseful stuff
2 - to deliver a clean joomla
3 - to develop a core lighter joomla

I think the real problem is the point #3
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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by pointri » Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:49 am

RoscoHead wrote:
Stasys wrote:I doubt we have man power to provide and maintain 2 joomla versions
It might work if there was a separate team maintaining each distribution. Look at Linux. There's more distributions out there now than I know about, and I know about quite a few.
Quite a few industrious developers have had their hand over the years at adding things or taking things away to create packages of Mambo and Joomla! and meet certain needs. I recall someone who had assembled a community edition with a number of components geared towards social networking. Preoccupations with accessibility and languages spawned packages geared at those ends concurrently with Joomla's releases. Or, how about packages complete with a LAMP stack and installer? Or those occasional, insidious versions of Joomla, repackaged without copyrights or attribution, and hawked off as the next big CMS?

So, there are indeed flavors of Joomla, and it's worked that way for a while. And, among other reasons, I wager that we haven't seen many full-fledged or long-lived "distributions" of Joomla come into their own because--until recently--it had no discernible framework (or "kernel", I suppose). The fact that we can even discuss throwing out legacy extensions and features in the core at this stage is largely due to Joomla's excellent, but still maturing, framework.

On a couple of the items: I agree about mod_footer: good module position...terrible module.
I also like Hannes' idea of outlined in a previous proposal to smoosh content modules into one, though being careful not to swamp the end user in parameters to get things right in the process. A challenge though would be to assure that module outputs would still work with 1.5 template overrides.

If those ubiquitious default templates with a tweak or two on thousands of sites are an indication, I agree that dumping core components in a minor release geared towards end users might throw them off. A compromise might be something like this: take those developer-averse components and modules out of the core install, serve them separately at Joomlacode, and make them the litmus test for wiliebil's JUpdater proposal by way of an improved extension manager? Or would that be too much to bite off?

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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by newart » Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:34 pm

I think that in a general cleaning work you can consider some small coding work like that on http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=304&t=264994 in which there are unuseful codes in your site page, too! :eek:
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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by prova » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:51 am

You can do a lot of work but perhaps at a first stage the important thing is to remove all unuseful stuff... :p
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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by mjaz » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:30 pm

I agree with Hannes: take it all out!
You could package com_polls, com_banners etc as simple installable extensions. That would give users the exact same functionality they have now, only optional. This also allows them to be maintained and developed separately, without being tied to a joomla release.
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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by newart » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:56 pm

that's ok and I'd like to tell you guys/gals about unuseful old stuff: the php4 issue! Please see also at http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f ... 6#p1244836 - in joomla 1.6 I think a good work will be to be strictly compatible with > PHP 5.2 - The development cycle will take around 4/5 months and so please clean the old php4 stuff.

All my (4) hosters during the last 4 months have changed into php5... so if we could have a 1.6 version in september... it'd be better having it in php5, of course! ;)
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Re: Remove unusefull stuff

Post by nexans06 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:16 pm

I agree with hackwar, it's time we remove all that old stuff and instead let 3pd develop that functionality. More of a framework and more focused CMS (contactmanagement, user/group permissions, article system, etc). :)

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Re: [33]Remove unusefull stuff

Post by AmyStephen » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:46 pm

I agree completely with this ***if**** we also start considering distributions.

You geeks all forget - the beginning end user uses all this stuff when they start, and as they do, they learn.

If you strip J! down to framework, I would be very, very happy, but we would lose - on the same day - the one thing that sets Joomla! apart and makes it extremely user friendly - and that one difference is this: You can build an entire website with Joomla! core without adding one thing.

When we have a "Joomla! Newbie" distribution - and a group working on a "Worship" distribution - and another group working on a "School website" distribution - then we can do so.

Starting is hard - but it's made so much easier when you have everything you need to build a website all in one zip file. That some call bloated - but that's a price worth paying, IMO, and you can tell from the thousands of sites people have built with Joomla! with very limited skill.

I'd also support two distributions while we move in this direction - framework (and extreme basics) and "starter." But please let's not forget our new people.

Good thinking, though.

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Re: [33]Remove unusefull stuff

Post by Hackwar » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:42 pm

I want to point out, that a lot of the proposals I've made would be simplifications without taking any kind of functionality away. For example the content module would greatly improve on this area without even the slightest feature loss, as well as the com_messages or the change with com_categories and com_sections. Removing complete components like com_poll might be a bit much for now, but I'm currently coming from politics and I'm starting with my maximum and we can now bargain until we meet in the middle. ;)
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Re: [33]Remove unusefull stuff

Post by AmyStephen » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:15 am

Any kind of reorganizing and simplifying is, of course, great.

Keep in mind (for beginners), having a "Latest Articles" (News is a misnomer - add it to your list, Elin) module where you simpy decide which categories to include or exclude is really easy to use. One can get their mind around that pretty easily.

Having a module that can randomize, or show latest, or show most popular, or show related items, is *exactly* what I want, but it is more difficult to use for newbies.

How you balance that is the trick and I trust you all to make good choices. 8)

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Re: [33]Remove unusefull stuff

Post by Hackwar » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:26 am

Thats why I'm working on JParameter. Conditional Parameters would be a powerfull feature. Think about selecting which kind of feature you want to use and only then you do get the parameters applicable to this function.
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Re: [33]Remove unusefull stuff

Post by newart » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:57 am

Hackwar wrote:I want to point out, that a lot of the proposals I've made would be simplifications without taking any kind of functionality away.
That's the focal point by Hackwar and taking into account all above I do agree with Hackwar totally!!
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Re: [33]Remove unusefull stuff

Post by intertron » Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:45 pm

Also consider removing the obsolete administrator modules:

mod_footer: never used, and links to the 1.0.x Version Info page on Joomla.org
mod_unread & mod_online: the unread and online info is currently displayed using the mod_status module.
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Re: [33]Remove unusefull stuff

Post by newart » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:36 am

yes, any idea is very welcome to the thread for a good cleaning of unuseful stuff and joomla needs a good overview on that.
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Re: [33]Remove unusefull stuff

Post by craigieb » Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:37 pm

I'm not overly keen on two versions of Joomla as its splitting development time - as an end user you should be competent enough to remove the components yourself and given that the project is open source I think the teams time would be better spent working on one project!
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Re: [33]Remove unusefull stuff

Post by Hackwar » Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:45 pm

Nobody is talking about creating two seperate Joomla versions.
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Re: [33]Remove unusefull stuff

Post by craigieb » Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:33 pm

I could see having two different versions of the next Joomla release.
I think it's important to split the talking into 2 considerations: one for a clean joomla and the other for a light joomla.
Did I misread this entire thread? :-[
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Re: [33]Remove unusefull stuff

Post by Hackwar » Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:17 pm

In general, this thread is over a year old and quite some of the things mentioned in it have since been changed or are obsolete. We wont create more than one distribution of Joomla for now.
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Re: [33]Remove unusefull stuff

Post by newart » Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:23 pm

ok but also Win thinks of a win seven in a modular distribution...
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